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Formula One is expected to introduce sprint races on a trial basis during the 2021 season


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#1 Grenville

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:03

Formula One is expected to introduce sprint races on a trial basis during the 2021 season. Your thoughts?

 

Source: https://www.dailymai...-races-2021.htm

 



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#2 Risil

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:11

I've got lots of minor thoughts, but the big one is wondering what will happen when somebody who's qualified well on Friday gets taken out on the first lap.



#3 pacificquay

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:16

Very much against this.

 

To win a Grand Prix is a significant thing in its own right.

 

Handing out points prior to the Grand Prix is just wrong.



#4 Risil

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:20

It's not totally unlike the way the 1959 German Grand Prix was divided into two heats, I suppose, although as Denis Jenkinson pointed out it was probably outside the official rulebook of the time.

 

Those heats aggregated together to a single Grand Prix win, so Tony Brooks wasn't counted twice in the record books (or indeed the 1959 championship). Interesting that this change would mean some Grands Prix will be worth more championship points than others.



#5 loki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:40

Adding two heats as we call them over here.  Much of the racing over here uses a variation of that format.  Including the Daytona 500.  Has for years.  Motocross too.  Not a “gimmick” just another way to race.



#6 Myrvold

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 17:43

Hang on! I thought this was just as a "qualifying-heat" not giving points as well. What an absolute load of BS that will have all the F1 "pundits" praise it in fear of losing their credentials. Ugh



#7 Burtros

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:00

While you are all getting your knickers in a twist about this they will slip in balance of performance because you know, engine freeze and a totally failed power unit formula that is damn near killing the sport.... but yeah let’s all get upset because we might be trying something new and different.

I have no problem with trying it. I’ve no interest in being a slave to history.

As a side note read the comments.... what an absolutely vile publication that is. It’s nothing short of horrific, the hate they spread disgusts me.

#8 ANF

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:01

Wouldn't it be better to move this discussion to the previous thread? https://forums.autos...still-possible/ (Or maybe that was the Sprint Thread and this is the Feature Thread?)



#9 ANF

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:07

Has any publication other than the Daily Mail suggested there could be a Free Practice session after Qualifying (for the Sprint Race)? That would go against parc fermé regulations, wouldn't it.

All F1/FIA have said is that "a working group has been tasked with creating a complete plan with the aim to reach a final decision before the start for the 2021 Championship".

#10 Pete_f1

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:20

Yeah do somthing diffrent. F1 needs it.

#11 shure

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:23

wait, we're getting a thread based on a Daily Mail article?



#12 Fastcake

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:28

Has any publication other than the Daily Mail suggested there could be a Free Practice session after Qualifying (for the Sprint Race)? That would go against parc fermé regulations, wouldn't it.

All F1/FIA have said is that "a working group has been tasked with creating a complete plan with the aim to reach a final decision before the start for the 2021 Championship".

Hopefully the final decision being that this a stupid idea and to never mention it again.



#13 ANF

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:38

Hopefully the final decision being that this a stupid idea and to never mention it again.

Yes. I hope they will realise it would be a waste of money. There would be a 24-hour break between races during which the teams would probably want to analyse every bit of data from the sprint race and work on strategy for the feature race at the track and in the factory.

#14 Clatter

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:55

I just think it's going to be rubbish. Q already lines them up in order of speed, but with the odd driver that can make it further up the grid than the car deserves and the occasional mistake or breakdown putting a top car at the back. A Q race the next day just gives them the opportunity to shuffle the slower cars to the back again, and those that had a problem a chance to reset so for the main race everything will be back to fastest at the front again. To get an interesting grid for Sunday a crash on Saturday is probably required.

#15 Clatter

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:56

Yes. I hope they will realise it would be a waste of money. There would be a 24-hour break between races during which the teams would probably want to analyse every bit of data from the sprint race and work on strategy for the feature race at the track and in the factory.

 


My partial answer for that is the sprint race doesn't use the race compounds, and they can't use the sprint race compound in FP.

Edited by Clatter, 12 February 2021 - 18:56.


#16 Grenville

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 18:56

wait, we're getting a thread based on a Daily Mail article?

OK try these..

 

https://the-race.com...l-sprint-races/

https://www.bbc.com/...rmula1/55992727

https://newsparrots....-races-in-2021/



#17 Burtros

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:10

How about looking at it like this... what’s wrong with seeing what they come up with and maybe trying it out two or three times?

#18 Clatter

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:12

How about looking at it like this... what’s wrong with seeing what they come up with and maybe trying it out two or three times?

 


That attitude was sadly missing when it came to trying out reverse grids.

#19 masa90

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:14

Bad, bad move.

 

I do not know if either knowing the title winners beforehand (for who knows how many straight years now) or gimmick bs like this is more depressing showcase of current f1.

 

Liberty is desperate. It shows. Badly. Seems like they know already this year is gonna suck entertainmentwise so they are adding all kinds of bs to try to hide it.

 

I miss proper "major sport event" feeling of f1. Now it doesnt even feel like f1 race anymore. Cant even think what kind of crap it will feel when they add even more gimmick to this. This is Bernie levels crazy. Only difference is that these days the utterly stupid ideas are put into practise.



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#20 masa90

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:16

Yeah do somthing diffrent. F1 needs it.

 

Yeah f1 needs it because earlier kneejerk and gimmick changes to the sport put it into the miserable place it currently is. The thing with downhills is that the speed usually only starts to accelerate. With the way the sport is currently run, so will the popularity of the sport. Signs are clear already.



#21 Marklar

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:32

The linked article in the OP cracks me up

Formula One fans are FURIOUS with plans to introduce 'sprint races' to decide grid places in 2021 - as they accuse the sport of a 'gimmick' that will 'hand Lewis Hamilton the championship'


Yeah, THAT will hand him the championship, what else? :lol:

#22 noikeee

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:47

I've already said what I think in the previous thread, which basically amounts to a bit of reason (?) behind "GRRRRRR" and angry emojis.

Just wanna mention that it's funny that in the year we're gonna have 23 races, the thing they think that's lacking is even more of them.

Edited by noikeee, 12 February 2021 - 19:47.


#23 jonpollak

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:47

LoL on the Daily Fail.
Look, I know we hate change but I wouldn’t mind it.
Hell... I was all for sprinklers !!
Jp

#24 BRK

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:50

I'd welcome this. Too bad it's only at 3 trial events this year. This makes it a proper 3 day race weekend. A two race format works well in F2. And hopefully no more barren practice sessions, with cars sitting in the garages for an hour.

This of course isn't going to stop Mercedes. But some novelty is good.

#25 messy

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 19:56

Does winning a sprint race count as a Grand Prix win in the record books?

Winning a race is a big thing. Ask Sergio Perez or Pierre Gasly. Say Daniel Ricciardo wins a sprint race, does that count as his eighth Grand Prix win? I’m confused. I like the idea of spicing things up but I think the one big race on a weekend format is kinda sacred. Grand Prix.

#26 H0R

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 20:00

Let's give it a try. I would expect it won't change too much in the grand scheme of things, but if it brings just some additional fun I'm fine with it.

And in regards to the points rersults: I think this is open for further adjustments anyway.



#27 BRK

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 20:01

That's what everyone said when DRS was introduced, that overtaking was sacred. Or when the new points system came in, that earning points was sacred...Should be fine once we get used to it, IMHO.

I think wins should be classified as 'sprint wins' and reckoned separately from Grand Prix victories.

#28 noriaki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 20:24

I would be ok with the occasional sprint qualifying races, even if only to break away from the monotoby of the uniform GP weekend format.

If it becomes a points awarding fixture though? Two Grands Prix per weekend? Very much against the idea.

#29 Calum

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 20:33

I would be ok with the occasional sprint qualifying races, even if only to break away from the monotoby of the uniform GP weekend format.

If it becomes a points awarding fixture though? Two Grands Prix per weekend? Very much against the idea.

 

Is the short one not just a Petit Prix?  :D  Maybe there's a better translation for the small prize on Saturday?



#30 loki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 21:17

Here’s how heat qualifying works...

 

First practice speeds set the grid for first heat.

 

First heat sets “transfer points” based on finishing position.  Like motocross heats lower number is better.  Transfer points are only to set grid spots not championship points.

 

Second heat set by first heat finishing.  Final grid spots set by combining finishing positions of heats.  EG; when Sir Lewis wins both heats he’ll have 2 transfer points and pole position.  When Mazepin finishes 2nd in the 1st heat and 3rd in the 2nd heat he’ll have 5 transfer points.  But, you say, when Bottas finishes 3rd in the 1st heat and 2nd in the 2nd heat he’ll also have 5 transfer points.  Ties broken by practice speed then season points.



#31 loki

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 21:21

I miss proper "major sport event" feeling of f1.

And I miss rotary dial phones and getting up to change the TV channel and adjust the rabbit ears.  Things change over time.  Even Formula One.



#32 Bloggsworth

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 21:25

What next? Penalty ballast?



#33 absinthedude

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 21:53

I don't mind a sprint race to determine the grid. I understand what that would try and achieve....the fastest drivers/cars still have every chance to "qualify" at the front, while there's the additional chance that someone will have an "off" and start much further down than they normally would...thus creating some excitement. Presumably the idea is also that a race is more exciting than a qualifying session. I'm not wild about it but it doesn't seem to essentially veer away from the idea that the grid is determined by who can drive the fastest and not bin it. 

 

Where I divert away from the reported idea is the idea of giving points for the qualifying race. I could stomach 1 point or 2 points for pole but giving points for the top 6, 8 or whatever effectively means running a grand prix over two heats. And while it's been tried once, it really does go against the history and DNA of F1 and the World Championship. 



#34 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 22:05

Is this not just an extended Grand Prix with a 24hr red-flag in the middle?

#35 Fastcake

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 22:21

How about looking at it like this... what’s wrong with seeing what they come up with and maybe trying it out two or three times?

We know what it would look like though. There are plenty of series that have qualifying or sprint races. It's a question as to whether you like what already exists, or whether you think it would work for Formula One.



#36 TheFish

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 22:48

Is this not just an extended Grand Prix with a 24hr red-flag in the middle?


Yea. And those who crashed out or broke down get to start from the back.

Edited by TheFish, 12 February 2021 - 22:48.


#37 Burtros

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Posted 12 February 2021 - 22:49

We know what it would look like though. There are plenty of series that have qualifying or sprint races. It's a question as to whether you like what already exists, or whether you think it would work for Formula One.


We don’t even know the fine details of what’s going to be voted on yet, how it’s going to work etc.

How can you possibly have enough information at your disposal to make such projections at this stage?

I say we should give it a go and see what happens. Let’s face it, barring a miracle we know the champions already and this probably won’t change that, what’s to loose?

#38 ANF

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 01:03

I say we should give it a go and see what happens. Let’s face it, barring a miracle we know the champions already and this probably won’t change that, what’s to loose?

The current qualifying, race and championship points formats which are all perfectly fine.

#39 JHSingo

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:28

Ah the new "we're stuck with crap racing for the next year, so here's a desperate attempt at something different" idea for the year. Last couple of years it was reversed grids, now it's sprint races...

 

Honestly, I don't really get what they hope to achieve with this. Races aren't made less exciting due to their duration, so I don't see how having sprint races will really improve "the show" or whatever. The fundamental problems with these cars being unable to race well still exists whether it's a 25 lap sprint, or full race distance. 

 

And what does it mean for extra mileage on engines/gearboxes etc? 

 

Not a fan of this idea. I honestly wouldn't be surprised to hear them considering going down the full NASCAR route with segmented races to ensure that the field keeps getting bunched up next...



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#40 mclarensmps

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 02:33

what happens with the seasonal parts allocation?



#41 Myrvold

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 03:45

what happens with the seasonal parts allocation?

 

Nothing? Those are locked from qual and on anyway.



#42 dannyricsshoe

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 05:23

Nothing wrong with trying something. If you ask me they need to try more and keep at it some more to truly see if it will work.

Sometimes change can be positive. Even if you don't expect it. I for one couldn't care less about one lap wonders. What matters is the actual racing.

#43 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 10:46

This idea has failure written all over it, just like that bizarre qualifying change in the first two races of 2016.

#44 JimmyClark

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 11:05

This idea has failure written all over it, just like that bizarre qualifying change in the first two races of 2016.


Was that five years ago already? Wow.

#45 P123

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 11:25

A mini prix before the grand prix, to achieve...???  Another race? Imagine the challenger to the dominant team retiring at some stage from the mini-race.  It's not a solution to anything.



#46 jjcale

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 11:38

Im undecided.... they need to do something to generate interest .... I get that .... but I dont like this particular idea. 

 

They say its meant to be a sprint race but its not going to be a sprint race. As my friend above points out, there is too much at stake (grid position for main race) to justify taking significant risks in the "sprint race" ... so it just going to be driving at 80% to 90% for a single tyre stint.

 

Or if some teams have better reliability they may push a bit more than others with more fragile cars/engines .... but at the end of the day its going to be a conservation race and not a sprint race.

 

So there is the potential for this idea to backfire and give us a boring 30 minutes or so of not very hard "racing". 

 

But still, as I like to say - a bad plan is better than no plan. .... or maybe this is a case for following the most famous saying among chess players - if you find a good move, dont just play it, see if you can find a better one.


Edited by jjcale, 13 February 2021 - 11:38.


#47 Loosenut

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 11:38

So Perez's job in these races is to crash into Lewis Hamilton?

#48 JensHaglof

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 11:47

Well a lot can happen in a race. Maybe this is a good thing. A lot usually happens in the first few corners, car going off track, losing the front wing and such. Maybe it will randomize the grid order more then the regular qualifying format. But there's also the risk that the fastest driver wins and then just dominates the real race. Like really boring, all the cars in a train, no overtakes. Also having a sprint-race that's 50% of the regular race seems too much. That's like two races. Not sure what this will bring but I like the idea to try it. Then make a decision on whether to keep it.



#49 Ali623

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 12:03

I'm curious to see how it goes if it is indeed happening then. I can imagine it'll be potentially very beneficial to the backmarker teams, someone like Giovinazzi who I believe often makes up loads of places off the start could benefit greatly with a higher starting position for the GP. Or on the other hand if someone like Bottas has a poor start, he might end up starting the GP in 5th/6th rather than the usual 1st/2nd. 

 

Considering the sprint races will only be 30(?) minutes, there's less opportunity for these drivers to then filter back into place. It could certainly mix up the grid slightly without being overly gimmicky like reverse grids.



#50 noikeee

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Posted 13 February 2021 - 12:09

This idea has failure written all over it, just like that bizarre qualifying change in the first two races of 2016.


It reminds me more of the double points for the season finale.

There's no reason it will go as catastrophically wrong as that qualy format did. The "sprint/feature races" format work for many series, starting with F2. But I think people will afterwards look at it and say "well what's the point of this, it didn't really add anything and was just change for the sake of change that cheapened the sport just a tiny little bit more"

Unless it does succeed at increasing TV viewing figures overall across a race weekend (that's got to be the point of all this, surely??), which means we're all just gonna be stuck with this format for the coming years. That could really well happen. But, I don't think it will succeed as a way to "spice up the racing" or anything like that. If anything I think it'll make Sunday races just slightly more predictable overall. Occasionally you'll have Lewis starting from the back because he crashed out on Saturday, but then that can happen with the current qualifying too.