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Teams building their own engines


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#1 HistoryFan

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 08:06

I am really suprised that there are only a few teams (beside workd entries of course) which were building their own engines in F1:

 

- BRM
- Arrows
- Zakspeed
- Osella
- ERA
- A.T.S
- Scarab

 

Now Red Bull is in line.



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#2 wheadon1985

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 08:52

Would you not consider BRM as a works outfit?

#3 Risil

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 09:21

Would you not consider BRM as a works outfit?

 

I feel like this is a re-run of the "Define a privateer" thread! Perhaps Vanwall falls into the same bucket as BRM. After all they were based within an automotive manufacturer, but one that made bearings, not finished cars. So was Vanwall a works team or a private one that helpfully enough was run from within the British motor industry? Does it matter, particularly?



#4 uechtel

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 09:42

Ah yes, Osella, the team which had that HUGE engine factory at Milano...



#5 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 10:20

Matra, Eagle, Novi... I'm sure there were more. Heck, if you include Arrows and Osella, you'll have to include the German ATS team as well, or Lyncar, or indeed McLaren in 1966.



#6 Izzyeviel

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 10:45

How could OP forget Toleman??????

 

I've always wondered what if Zakspeed had entered their turbo in the early 80's. By 1985 Turbos were getting really complex with the all the electronics and fuel management systems being introduced. I do wonder if they had entered a few years earlier if they could've been more succesful.



#7 Rob Miller

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 11:57

Nobody ever remembers De Tomaso.

#8 Charlieman

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 12:01

Tecno even scored a point with their own chassis-engine combination.  :clap:



#9 BRG

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 12:21

BRM were solely a racing team so OP is right to include them. 

Matra was an aviation company and also actually made some road cars, so it would be fair to call them a 'works' team.

Toleman bought in their engines from Brian Hart, didn't they?  The same as teams buying Cosworths?  

Tecno is a good call.

Zakspeed is a greyish area as they heavily modified Ford engines AFAIK?

Vanwall....umm, not sure!



#10 Charlieman

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 12:35

Vanwall....umm, not sure!

Early BRM run properly? Vanwall had lots of motor industry connections which they used productively.

 

Gordini made their own engines and scored more than one point. No production cars bore the Gordini name until after retirement from single seater racing.

 

Zakspeed and Brian Hart both derived their F1 engines from Ford-based designs used in other categories. We can assume that no significant Ford components remained.



#11 BRG

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 13:31

Zakspeed and Brian Hart both derived their F1 engines from Ford-based designs used in other categories. We can assume that no significant Ford components remained.

Yes indeed.  But Zakspeed did the engine work in-house, whereas Hart were a engine supplier to Toleman.  They also supplied Footwork, Jordan, Spirit, Minardi, RAM and Lola at some time or other.  So I make a distinction there.



#12 RobertE

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 13:36

By the time they'd finished with the ALTA, one should nominate Connaught!



#13 uechtel

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 14:41

In my opinion to be counted as an "engine builder" there must be more than simply renaming the creation of somebody else. I think Arrows and Osella were simply lacking sponsorship otherweise the naming could have turned out similar to "Playlife", "Petronas", "Acer", "Asiatech", "TAG"... I don´t see not much difference in these approaches.



#14 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 15:16

Ah, yes, Playlife was just another name for benetton, so they qualify, too.



#15 PZR

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 15:41

Honda and Toyota.

 

I don't understand the point of the 'except Works' distinction. A team that makes its own engines has to count whatever, surely?


Edited by PZR, 16 February 2021 - 15:44.


#16 Teapot

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 16:22

I think that the Rocchi designed W12 engine that "powered" the 1990 Life F1 was an in-house effort: the car never made the grid, but stil it was officialy entered in the championship with that engine, so Life should appear in the list.

 

Speaking of almost non-entities, I don't think a case can be made for the test mule AGS with the Guy Negre engine (another W12, by the way) that emerged around 1989, because it was never entered in a race and it was, if i remember well, just an old chassis sold by AGS to MGN (Moteurs Guy Negre)


Edited by Teapot, 16 February 2021 - 16:22.


#17 Izzyeviel

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 18:11

Honda and Toyota.

 

I don't understand the point of the 'except Works' distinction. A team that makes its own engines has to count whatever, surely?

 Well, if you built an engine in your shed would it make you a manufacturer? 



#18 Michael Ferner

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 18:21

Bugatti were no longer building cars in 1956, were they? So, not a manufacturer.



#19 TennisUK

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 19:10

I imagine there are a few missing, but I think this is more or less the list of chassis manufacturers who were powered by their own engines. Ish. Obviously includes some manufacturers, too - but the distinction isn't always clear.

 

Talbot Lago L6

Gordini L4, L6, L8

Alta L4

Bugatti L8

EMW L6

BMW V8

ERA L6

Mercedes V6, V8, L8

Renault V6,V8,V10

Ferrari L4, V6, V8, V10, V12, F12

Tecno f12

Life W12

De Tomaso V8

Vanwall L4

Lancia V8

(Italian) ATS v8

Arrows v10
Zakspeed L4
Osella V8
Scarab L4

Porsche f4, f8

Honda V8, V10, V12

Alfa Romeo L8, V6T, F12, V12, V8T 

Maserati V12, L4

Matra V12

OSCA V12

BRM L4, V16, V8, V12, H16

Aston Martin 

Veritas L6

Scarab L4

Toyota V10, V8

 

Another couple of possibles...

 

Modena/Lamborghini, in all but name a Lamborghini effort.

Subaru owned Coloni for a few months, so I suppose that might count?


Edited by TennisUK, 16 February 2021 - 20:36.


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#20 MCS

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 19:18

Did Peugeot build an engine for McLaren?  Was it a derivative of their sportscar engine? 

 

And did they have their own team?



#21 D-Type

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 19:27

I am really suprised that there are only a few teams (beside workd entries of course) which were building their own engines in F1:

 

Surely building their own chassis and engine means it is a works entry.  What else can it be?


Edited by D-Type, 16 February 2021 - 19:33.


#22 TennisUK

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 20:35

Did Peugeot build an engine for McLaren?  Was it a derivative of their sportscar engine? 

 

And did they have their own team?

They did, in 1993 - then later with Jordan and later still Prost, with diminishing competitiveness each year.

 

The initial engine was based on the sportscar 3.5 v10, but they quickly moved to a new design - as early as Brazil, from memory. It was very unreliable but reasonably powerful. I wonder how it might have done in a second year of a McLaren partnership - I suspect not too badly.



#23 Risil

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 21:40

Did Peugeot build an engine for McLaren?  Was it a derivative of their sportscar engine? 
 
And did they have their own team?

 

I believe Jean Todt, who ran Peugeot's sports car programme at the time, advocated strongly that they should have had one. When the board said no, he decamped to Ferrari and Peugeot signed the deal with Ron Dennis.



#24 Ray Bell

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Posted 16 February 2021 - 23:42

Vanwall...

 

A Rolls-Royce block and crankcase, was it not? Then a head which was a water-cooled version of four Norton motorcycle heads joined together.

 

As Eagle's deal with Weslake was exclusive, and undoubtedly they had some input into the design (parameters at least), Eagle would count.

 

But McLaren's 1966 engine was simply a Ford Indy quad-cam reduced in capacity.



#25 Michael Ferner

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 07:33

But McLaren's 1966 engine was simply a Ford Indy quad-cam reduced in capacity.

 

That's right, but they did the conversion themselves, didn't they? That's more than can be said of Osella or Arrows, hence my comment. The latter are more like ATS or Lyncar (Hesketh, too?) who also (re-)built their engines in their own shop.



#26 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 07:44

They did, in 1993 - then later with Jordan and later still Prost, with diminishing competitiveness each year.

 

The initial engine was based on the sportscar 3.5 v10, but they quickly moved to a new design - as early as Brazil, from memory. It was very unreliable but reasonably powerful. I wonder how it might have done in a second year of a McLaren partnership - I suspect not too badly.

Looking at Jordan's results in the following years, it would probably have been okay, but I don't think that there is much doubt that it was better in the long term to have Mercedes engines.



#27 HistoryFan

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 09:50

Surely building their own chassis and engine means it is a works entry.  What else can it be?

 

Sorry, I thought about not including car manufactures like Toyota, Honda and so on.


 



#28 BRG

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 12:11

Sorry, I thought about not including car manufactures like Toyota, Honda and so on.

That's how I understood the original question.  Purely racing teams that built their own engines, as opposed to buying them in.


Edited by BRG, 17 February 2021 - 12:12.


#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 17 February 2021 - 13:16

In my opinion to be counted as an "engine builder" there must be more than simply renaming the creation of somebody else. I think Arrows and Osella were simply lacking sponsorship otherweise the naming could have turned out similar to "Playlife", "Petronas", "Acer", "Asiatech", "TAG"... I don´t see not much difference in these approaches.


Arrows had actually bought Brian Hart’s company and absorbed it into their own operations. On top of that, the V10 using the Arrows name was their engine rather than inherited from an independent company.

Playlife was a badging exercise though. They were Mecachrome or Supertec engines as used by Williams and BAR at the same time.

#30 TennisUK

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Posted 18 February 2021 - 10:44

Looking at Jordan's results in the following years, it would probably have been okay, but I don't think that there is much doubt that it was better in the long term to have Mercedes engines.

For Mclaren? Certainly - though I think the Puegeot may have provided better results in 95 and maybe 96. Beyond that, certainly Mercedes was the better bet, no question.

 

For Peugeot? Moving from Mclaren to Jordan would have made seeng the engine's ultimate potential rather trickier to see and I don't think they were the beneficiaries of the deal...



#31 Michael Ferner

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 13:11

Somehow we all managed to overlook the most successful of the lot: Repco-Brabham!!



#32 Beggysmalls

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 13:17

Would you count the repco powered brabhams. They were developed by repco bit jack had alot to do with them getting designed and built

#33 Michael Ferner

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 15:58

They were Repco-Brabham powered Repco-Brabhams. And Jack had a lot to do with them being designed and built, at least as much as Enzo Ferrari had to do with the Ferraris!



#34 john aston

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 17:25

Which Enzo Ferrari was that I wonder? 



#35 Charles E Taylor

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 21:35

Maybe not F1

 

In 1973 there was even a Lotus-Lotus in F2.

 

 

 

 

Charlie


Edited by Charles E Taylor, 19 February 2021 - 21:41.


#36 Ray Bell

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 22:56

It was 1967, was it not, when the Repco Brabham engines became totally their own build?

 

That was when they started casting their own blocks instead of using old GM blocks. But then, they still used Daimler rods if I'm not mistaken.



#37 Michael Ferner

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Posted 19 February 2021 - 23:05

Sorry Ray, but I can't see what that has to do with the question. Even with the GM blocks and Daimler rods, they were RB engines.

 

 

Which Enzo Ferrari was that I wonder? 

 

Oh sorry, are there more than one? :blush:



#38 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 01:55

Matra, Eagle, Novi... I'm sure there were more. Heck, if you include Arrows and Osella, you'll have to include the German ATS team as well, or Lyncar, or indeed McLaren in 1966.

Jack and his Repco Brabhams. A engine component supplier with a far bigger range than Vanwall.



#39 sabrejet

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 08:07

I feel like this is a re-run of the "Define a privateer" thread! Perhaps Vanwall falls into the same bucket as BRM. After all they were based within an automotive manufacturer, but one that made bearings, not finished cars. So was Vanwall a works team or a private one that helpfully enough was run from within the British motor industry? Does it matter, particularly?

 

Too many of these pointless navel-gazing threads on here. 



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#40 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 09:28

It was 1967, was it not, when the Repco Brabham engines became totally their own build?

 

That was when they started casting their own blocks instead of using old GM blocks. But then, they still used Daimler rods if I'm not mistaken.

They used a mixture of Daimler, Chevrolet and Carillo rods depending on the engine type and spec. 
I'm not 100% sure but I think the Daimler rods were in the 2.5 litre versions.

The Repco cast block required less machining time than the Buick block. So there was actually more Repco in a Buick block than the Repco block.



#41 Ray Bell

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 10:11

That makes sense, Michael...

 

They certainly used Daimler rods in the 2.5, probably also in the early 3-litre versions.



#42 Catalina Park

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 10:28

The question now is 'Who made the Daimler rods?' Probably not Daimler themselves.



#43 Tim Murray

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 12:33

A couple of posts have been removed. No further personal attacks, please.

#44 Nick Savage

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 16:31

Apologies, Tim.

Nick



#45 Bikr7549

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 16:53

Personally, I enjoy the kinds of posts HistoryFan starts...



#46 HistoryFan

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Posted 20 February 2021 - 17:33

Thank you.