93 replies to this topic

[Anuity]

It does not change that much with the departure of Williams family.
I’m happy the name is still in f1. At least for now.
Let’s be honest, it’s not like Williams was ever to challenge for something with Mercedes.
If it’s Renault, doesn’t change too much. The era of Williams is gone anyways, unfortunately.
But it’s also their fault in a way that they could not make a team like Ferrari or Mclaren

[RA2]

Watching races from the late 90s makes me mad. Yet I cannot stop.

And the Williams issue is a weeping sore of the disease which set root in F1 long ago.

Williams struggles are their own making

[MKSixer]

Williams struggles are their own making

Ultimately, yes.  A series of dubious decisions and issues in F1 have exacerbated the rate of the fall, however...

Edited by MKSixer, 26 February 2021 - 14:11.

[Nobody]

What was the name of that breakaway manufacturer league which threatened to leave F1 or the FIA?

 

That's what we have now, no?

[Anuity]

It’s interesting that both Williams and Mclaren were almost identically successful, in fact you could argue that Williams was the best team throughout the 90s.
But Ron managed to build a company that still remains more or less strong.

I don’t see how it could have gone better for Williams to be honest. Perhaps not selling to BMW was their best decision after all. Likewise selling last year was probably the best as well.

[HeadFirst]

So I do understand the hatred for the so-called B, or junior teams, but what is the alternative? Eliminate the Bees, and who's left in the hive .... Merc, Ferrari, Alpine, and Red Bull + independent McLaren? How's that going to work?

[kumo7]

Getting and trying out Renault is a good option, but getting the (with) drivers are not.

I rather want to see Williams paying for the PU to Renault with technical expertise on the battery, or else,...

[RA2]

Forget BMW

 

1. It baffles me that Williams agreed to listed parts proposal from FIA. They should have never allowed it. They should have blocked any attempt to sharing of a gearbox, suspension and other bits from teams competing in F1. 

 

2. Firing Nico Hulkenberg for Rubens Barrichello? 

 

3. They made a dog of a car in 2011

[Timstr11]

Just seen this,

https://www.planetf1...ne-junior-team/

Mentions Williams are in line for being the Alpine junior team from 2022. Includes engines in return for Renault junior driver slots. Seems a backwards step in my view.

But I guess planet F1 are not so reliable and just click bating I hope.

 

^^^ 

(Didn't click on the link as I refuse to read planetf1 stuff as it's likely fake news)

 

Williams signed an expanded technical relationship with Mercedes for 2022 last month:

https://www.formula1...zCBufvqz8m.html

[Imperial]

It’s interesting that both Williams and Mclaren were almost identically successful, in fact you could argue that Williams was the best team throughout the 90s.
But Ron managed to build a company that still remains more or less strong.

 

 

Mclaren, from outward appearance, appears to have stuck rigidly to a set of boardroom values in the people that run it/attempt to run it/are hired to run it, encompassing the entire period of Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Ron's departure, Ron's failed coup to return, Eric Bouillier, and Zak Brown. It hasn't always worked and they have been back of the grid at times, but it has always been run as a hard-nosed business concern, which is what has brought them back to the position they are in now.

 

Williams meanwhile was run successfully by Frank, started going downhill under Frank, and went to the dogs under his daughter. And that isn't an easy knock at his daughter, but is a factual statement. It was ran as a family enterprise, a family that no longer own it.

Edited by Imperial, 26 February 2021 - 07:48.

[flatoutflatbroke]

It’s interesting that both Williams and Mclaren were almost identically successful, in fact you could argue that Williams was the best team throughout the 90s.
But Ron managed to build a company that still remains more or less strong.

I don’t see how it could have gone better for Williams to be honest. Perhaps not selling to BMW was their best decision after all. Likewise selling last year was probably the best as well.

 

I think much of the Williams team was still stuck in the 90's, as if they were still waiting for another big manufacturer to rock up and pour money in. Ironically, McLaren had to effectively refinance by raising equity and sale/leasback of the factory due to the financial hit of buying Ron out of McLaren. You may recall that Ron was still working on the fag brand era ratecard for sponsorship and then allegedly declared that McLaren did not need sponsors as it would be funded by the other parts of McLaren like the road cars, etc a sort of Enzo Ferrari model from the 1970's.

 

Both Willams and Ron D's McLaren were allegedly stuck in a 90's mindset and way of working IMO.

[PayasYouRace]

^^^
(Didn't click on the link as I refuse to read planetf1 stuff as it's likely fake news)

Williams signed an expanded technical relationship with Mercedes for 2022 last month:
https://www.formula1...zCBufvqz8m.html

If you had read the link, you’d have read that they considered that at the end of the article. Yes, if there is any truth to this story it would mean going back on that agreement with Mercedes. Seems unlikely to me.

[RedRabbit]

I may be in the minority, but I like the idea of independant teams tying up as partners with a factory team. All this secrecy nonsense is hurting a series in which the cars look pretty much the same anyway, and more sharing of resources could lead to a more competitive F1. The FIA just need to be firm though that "Junior/Sister/Partner" teams are not allowed to move over and gift positions to the "senior" outfit.

I also remember quite fondly the special edition Williams Renault Clios, and hopefully if this situation does arise, we'll see an expansion of the deal to something like that again.

[flatoutflatbroke]

Mclaren, from outward appearance, appears to have stuck rigidly to a set of boardroom values in the people that run it/attempt to run it/are hired to run it, encompassing the entire period of Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Ron's departure, Ron's failed coup to return, Eric Bouillier, and Zak Brown. It hasn't always worked and they have been back of the grid at times, but it has always been run as a hard-nosed business concern, which is what has brought them back to the position they are in now.

 

Williams meanwhile was run successfully by Frank, started going downhill under Frank, and went to the dogs under his daughter. And that isn't an easy knock at his daughter, but is a factual statement. It was ran as a family enterprise, a family that no longer own it.

 

I don't think SFW was really a businessman in the true sense of the word. Williams ran on half a shoestring at the start from the era where teams relied on start money negotiated with race promoters and a sticker on the car for some free tyres. It was BE who turned F1 overall into a business that enabled F1 to grow and the teams who happened to be in it at the time the deal was done benefited from those deals which made them hugely wealthy - at one time both SFW and RD were on the Sunday Times rich list at the same time.

[flatoutflatbroke]

I may be in the minority, but I like the idea of independant teams tying up as partners with a factory team. All this secrecy nonsense is hurting a series in which the cars look pretty much the same anyway, and more sharing of resources could lead to a more competitive F1. The FIA just need to be firm though that "Junior/Sister/Partner" teams are not allowed to move over and gift positions to the "senior" outfit.

I also remember quite fondly the special edition Williams Renault Clios, and hopefully if this situation does arise, we'll see an expansion of the deal to something like that again.

 

That was when Renault was only in F1 as an engine supplier and Williams was effectively their works teams, I can't see them putting Williams branding on an Alpine, when they are Alpine F1?

[jjcale]

I received an email from an NYC-based investment firm raising funds for a team. I haven’t yet replied, but I assumed straight off the bat it was for Williams...so, tie-ups / strategic partnerships like this are no surprise.

 

Please tell us more when you round to reading the email carefully.

 

I am assuming that this will be OK since you are an F1 fan so you know better than to take things further on this one.   

[RA2]

Frank Williams made a big mistake with Adam Parr. 

 

Toto Wolff led a coup with Clair, Nick Rose and Bernie Ecclestone in March 2012.

 

Toto became a executive director with an eye on team principal role.

 

In Dec 2012 Wolff left to Mercedes, something I guess Frank should have stopped.

 

I guess Frank Williams was good at letting key people leave rather than fighting to to keep them.

Edited by RA2, 26 February 2021 - 08:19.

[William Hunt]

I don't think this news is that bad because it at least means access to great talented young drivers and hopefully that means Latifi or other rich paydrivers out by 2023

[Imperial]

I may be in the minority, but I like the idea of independant teams tying up as partners with a factory team. All this secrecy nonsense is hurting a series in which the cars look pretty much the same anyway, and more sharing of resources could lead to a more competitive F1. The FIA just need to be firm though that "Junior/Sister/Partner" teams are not allowed to move over and gift positions to the "senior" outfit.

I also remember quite fondly the special edition Williams Renault Clios, and hopefully if this situation does arise, we'll see an expansion of the deal to something like that again.

 

I suppose it just makes the whole series open to a high degree of risk, should the major players decide to leave/withdraw junior-support within a short space of time it could leave a large % of the grid scrabbling around to keep their team afloat.

[absinthedude]

WIlliams had some....questionable behaviour towards drivers but I don't know that it's ever been said to be abusive. Boutsen finally realising that the team didn't want him around any more after they didn't celebrate his win at the Hungaroring in 1990. The whole Mansell thing in 1992. Hill being left in the dark about his future during 1995/6. And probably others. We know Patrick would shout at engineers. Not an environment I'd want to work in but not necessarily abusive. Adrian Newey probably hit the nail on the head when he talked about basically Frank and Patrick doing whatever they felt was right, without feeling the need to consult anyone else in the team - other senior team members, drivers, nobody.

 

Why keep the name? For that, I think we look at why other entities changed the name. Let's just look at the current Mercedes team. BAR bought Tyrrell and renamed it because Craig Pollock and his crew always wanted to create their own racing team and the British-American Racing moniker allowed chief sponsor British-American Tobacco some exposure at the time when tobacco sponsorship was being outlawed in most countries and we knew it's time in F1 was probably limited. Ultimately the BAR project didn't really succeed and they sold to Honda - who also specifically had reasons including racing history to rename the team. Honda pulled out and clearly the resulting team could not be named Honda as they didn't own the rights to use that name.....Ross Brawn considered reverting to Tyrrell (there were still a good number of ex-Tyrrell people there at the time, I believe) but in the end chose Brawn....then when Mercedes (or Daimler AG) came knocking they clearly wanted to rename the team Mercedes. 

In each step there were reasons to rename the team. Why would Dorilton rename it? They have little racing history, certainly not under any recognisable team name. They can probably still gain more by using the famous Williams name. Unless they really do become the Alpine B-team in which case I would suggest a name change is appropriate. Much in the same way that Minardi became Toro Rosso or Sauber became Alfa Romeo. 

 

I hope the story isn't true. I've nothing against B-teams or satellite teams but that would leave us with effectively no independent teams and fewer opportunities for drivers without ties to existing F1 manufacturers to make it into F1. We need teams who are not tied to manufacturers, even if an Alpine B-team might ultimately be more competitive than Williams have been recently.

[PayasYouRace]

BAR was not Tyrrell. They bought Tyrrell’s entry to get into the grid. They were a new team.

[taran]

WTF?

No it wasn't.

I had a peripheral involvement with them at a some races in '97 and outside of having to listen to Patrick scream every time David Brown put whatever he and Jacques thought was right on the car, for their ever evolving set up, but I'd say the vibe was very friendly.

David Brown would laugh it off, write it all down, before switching over (or appearing to switch over) to what Patrick decided was best before putting it back to what was required after PH was satisfied he 'retained control'. That was the only weird thing and nowhere near 'abusive' as you say.

As a matter of fact the 'bosses' as you call them were so kind to the crew and staff that they'd do anything for the race team and kept moral extremely high.

 

Unless you know something I don't, which is highly unlikely as you're one of those internet persons, I call hearsay with a generous side serving of uninformed bias.

 

Jp

 

As one of those internet persons who has to rely on open sources, I believe Williams has probably created the largest number of unhappy drivers of any F1 team, even more than Ferrari. The way they have treated some of their drivers is downright disgraceful, starting with Clay Regazzoni. And that isn’t a one-off. Frank and Patrick have never seen an opportunity to shaft their drivers they didn’t like. Less is known about their internal practices because nobody writes about the team staff or the company cultures but people usually don’t compartmentalise their asshole tendencies. It tends to shine bright in every aspect of their lives…..

 

I have never had any contact with Williams so unlike you I didn’t get the t-shirt but neither did I get their kool-aid. So I can only rely on what has been reported about the team. And I think repeated reports going back 40 years about Frank and Patrick not being particularly nice or fair trumps a few friendly visits to their pitbox.

 

YMMV.  

[RA2]

I don't think this news is that bad because it at least means access to great talented young drivers and hopefully that means Latifi or other rich paydrivers out by 2023

 

 

I hope that is not the case. If this does goes through, it should be a technical collaboration between the 2 develop non listed part, management structures, sim tools, shared manufacturing capabilities etc.  and not a place for driver deployment.

[Risil]

As one of those internet persons who has to rely on open sources, I believe Williams has probably created the largest number of unhappy drivers of any F1 team, even more than Ferrari. The way they have treated some of their drivers is downright disgraceful, starting with Clay Regazzoni. And that isn’t a one-off. Frank and Patrick have never seen an opportunity to shaft their drivers they didn’t like. Less is known about their internal practices because nobody writes about the team staff or the company cultures but people usually don’t compartmentalise their asshole tendencies. It tends to shine bright in every aspect of their lives…..
 
I have never had any contact with Williams so unlike you I didn’t get the t-shirt but neither did I get their kool-aid. So I can only rely on what has been reported about the team. And I think repeated reports going back 40 years about Frank and Patrick not being particularly nice or fair trumps a few friendly visits to their pitbox.
 
YMMV.

 

Drivers are a special kind of employee though. Frank Williams was one of the old school of team bosses whose personal history was having a warm human relationship with their driver, only to see them killed in one of their cars.

[Imperial]

The reviews left on Glassdoor by current employees appear to be, in general, very favourable of Williams (albeit mostly written a year or two ago).

[Lennat]

As several have mentioned, they sort of have this with Mercedes already. If the Renault deal makes more (mostly financial, I guess, but maybe in other ways too) sense, why not?

[Sterzo]

It was BE who turned F1 overall into a business that enabled F1 to grow...

Shrink, actually. From 27 cars on the grid for the 1980 British GP, to 21 cars on the grid for the 2016 British GP.

[MKSixer]

Mclaren, from outward appearance, appears to have stuck rigidly to a set of boardroom values in the people that run it/attempt to run it/are hired to run it, encompassing the entire period of Ron Dennis, Martin Whitmarsh, Ron's departure, Ron's failed coup to return, Eric Bouillier, and Zak Brown. It hasn't always worked and they have been back of the grid at times, but it has always been run as a hard-nosed business concern, which is what has brought them back to the position they are in now.

 

Williams meanwhile was run successfully by Frank, started going downhill under Frank, and went to the dogs under his daughter. And that isn't an easy knock at his daughter, but is a factual statement. It was ran as a family enterprise, a family that no longer own it.

 

This.  I have a consultancy which works with smaller organizations (Under 125 employees) to bring them standardized business practices.  Williams could be a case study as a cautionary tale.  Cold, hard, fact based decisions in a positive, warm and blame-free environment is what works.  Emotionally driven fiefdoms now equal failure.

[d j fox]

Granted it’s all past history etc and that “Williams” is no longer what it once was but it’s more than ironic when considering Williams and Renault were absolute sworn enemies back in the 70s/80’S...

[Izzyeviel]

Granted it’s all past history etc and that “Williams” is no longer what it once was but it’s more than ironic when considering Williams and Renault were absolute sworn enemies back in the 70s/80’S...

 

First I've ever heard about that. In the late 70's/early 80's they were far more concerned with beating Ligier. Nothing to be gained from beating a smoking tea-pot.

[PayasYouRace]

Granted it’s all past history etc and that “Williams” is no longer what it once was but it’s more than ironic when considering Williams and Renault were absolute sworn enemies back in the 70s/80’S...

 

Even if that's the case, I think that irony probably wore out sometime in 1989.

[MrMonaco]

Shrink, actually. From 27 cars on the grid for the 1980 British GP, to 21 cars on the grid for the 2016 British GP.

Since when Bernie cared about size of the grid?

[FirstnameLastname]

Since when Bernie cared about size of the grid?

When he was selling VIP passes

‘Clear some of those pesky cars/personnel off of here. Need more space for footballers and supermodels’

Edited by FirstnameLastname, 26 February 2021 - 21:28.

[aportinga]

Just imagine 30 years ago that someone told you that mighty Williams will one day became Toleman's junior team.

 

Or that Penske would own the Indy 500?

[pdac]

Since when Bernie cared about size of the grid?

 

I thought Bernie cared a lot about the size of the grid - he only wanted well funded teams that could compete for many years, so wanted to reduce the size.

[flingsofdeon]

Please tell us more when you round to reading the email carefully.

I am assuming that this will be OK since you are an F1 fan so you know better than to take things further on this one.

Here’s the email - clearly a blanket, as my name was in blue...Rueone Investments is the firm:

I wanted to reach out to introduce an opportunity to invest in one of the most successful Formula One teams, alongside a top sports investment firm. Formula One is well positioned post-COVID-19, and the league is making positive and cost-containing changes to the financial regulations of the sport – creating a more rapid and substantial upside for investment.



The investment includes attractive negotiated deal terms, and the effective valuation offers significant upside potential while also providing substantial downside protections and proceeds at exit.



We’d be happy to provide additional information and discuss in greater detail if you have interest.

[jjcale]

Here’s the email - clearly a blanket, as my name was in blue...Rueone Investments is the firm:

I wanted to reach out to introduce an opportunity to invest in one of the most successful Formula One teams, alongside a top sports investment firm. Formula One is well positioned post-COVID-19, and the league is making positive and cost-containing changes to the financial regulations of the sport – creating a more rapid and substantial upside for investment.

......
 

 

Sounds more like McLaren....to me, anyway.

 

Still very interesting.... TY for sharing.

[r4mses]

Since when Bernie cared about size of the grid?

 

Since he was obligated to bring... eh... 18(?) cars to the race.

[r4mses]

Here’s the email - clearly a blanket, as my name was in blue...Rueone Investments is the firm:

I wanted to reach out to introduce an opportunity to invest in one of the most successful Formula One teams, alongside a top sports investment firm. Formula One is well positioned post-COVID-19, and the league is making positive and cost-containing changes to the financial regulations of the sport – creating a more rapid and substantial upside for investment.

The investment includes attractive negotiated deal terms, and the effective valuation offers significant upside potential while also providing substantial downside protections and proceeds at exit.

We’d be happy to provide additional information and discuss in greater detail if you have interest.

 

I'd be highly suspicious about someone's knowledge of F1 if he's referting to F1 as a "league" in trying to sell me smth

[pdac]

I'd be highly suspicious about someone's knowledge of F1 if he's referting to F1 as a "league" in trying to sell me smth

 

Yes, that comes across to me as someone who has adapted a letter that's been used to court investments in a different sport - without much care and attention.

[HistoryFan]

perhaps they will pay money for drivers to drive at Williams.

[FirstnameLastname]

They’ll maybe place Alonso at Williams to gain experience

[r4mses]

They’ll maybe place Alonso at Williams to gain experience

 

with his six tenths they'd even get closer to the midfield!

[ARTGP]

I'd be highly suspicious about someone's knowledge of F1 if he's referting to F1 as a "league" in trying to sell me smth

 

Ironically, this is exactly how F1 has said it wants to be perceived moving forward. F1 and it's team would like to become money making sportsteams/franchises.

Edited by ARTGP, 28 February 2021 - 20:27.