Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Cars that you think may have been better than they looked


  • Please log in to reply
240 replies to this topic

#1 Touchdown

Touchdown
  • Member

  • 465 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 16 March 2021 - 21:31

Was watching the 2001 San Marino Grand Prix on YouTube recently and it got me thinking - what cars do you think were better than their results suggested?

 

I'm going to get the ball rolling with the 2001 McLaren - the MP4-16. The results paint a picture of a car that was scrapping for second best with the Williams-BMW, with Coulthard finishing 58 points off Schumacher in the title race and Ferrari winning the Constructors title by an even bigger margin. But I've always suspected the car performance wise stacked up to the Ferrari in the same way the respective 2000 cars did.

 

Early in the season DC looked more than a match for Michael, winning well in Brazil and Austria, along with comfortable poles in Monaco and San Marino (where McLaren locked out the front row), while Hakkinen, despite having shocking reliability, was absolutely dominant in Spain, Great Britain, and the USA, and looked a match for the Ferraris in Australia and Monaco too. It's obviously pretty well known that Hakkinen was mentally checked out at this point, but with better reliability and the fire that drove him to 2, nearly 3, consecutive WDCs, I think he could have made it a much closer title race than it was.

 

It's pretty generally accepted that the F2001 was comfortably the best car in 2001, and I would agree with this. But I think the margin looks inflated by the brilliance of Schumacher, and that his only legitimate rival was Coulthard, who was never champion material?

 

What do you guys think?



Advertisement

#2 Gambelli

Gambelli
  • Member

  • 2,644 posts
  • Joined: February 19

Posted 16 March 2021 - 23:08

1995 Williams had no right losing a championship.....



#3 danmills

danmills
  • Member

  • 3,148 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 16 March 2021 - 23:39

2014 & 2015 Williams got P3 in the standings with a younger Bottas and wise Massa. Both notorious floppers, but they were hardy finishers these years. You have to wonder what the likes of Verstappen, Ricciardo or Alonso could have done in them.

 

Probably not outright wins, but definitely more podiums.


Edited by danmills, 16 March 2021 - 23:40.


#4 Anuity

Anuity
  • Member

  • 1,379 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 16 March 2021 - 23:46

Mclaren in 2019/2020
Williams 1995/1998/2010/2012/2014/2015
Ferrari 1995/2008
Alpha Tauri 2020
Tyrrel 1994/1995

#5 Gambelli

Gambelli
  • Member

  • 2,644 posts
  • Joined: February 19

Posted 17 March 2021 - 00:06

2014 & 2015 Williams got P3 in the standings with a younger Bottas and wise Massa. Both notorious floppers, but they were hardy finishers these years. You have to wonder what the likes of Verstappen, Ricciardo or Alonso could have done in them.

 

Probably not outright wins, but definitely more podiums.

 

Well they threw away, I think, from what is in fairness a pretty poor memory, wins at Austria and Silverstone by not being ruthless enough as a team.  A Verstappen, Alonso, Ricciardo would probably not have needed team intervention against either of those 2 drivers to seize the initiative and win t least one of those races.... (I think though, from memory, the Silverstone race was the one where it rained anyway wasn't it and they sunk like stones???)



#6 JordanIreland

JordanIreland
  • Member

  • 517 posts
  • Joined: December 15

Posted 17 March 2021 - 00:23

1995 Williams had no right losing a championship.....


That Williams was a pure beast, I loved it.

But it was so unreliable and the team made so many bad strategy calls. Benetton really made Williams look like amateurs on that front.

#7 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 7,344 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 01:33

How am I supposed to know which cars may have been better than they looked if what they looked like is all I know about them? :p Perhaps only if I want to have a go at a particular driver pairing.


Edited by Anderis, 17 March 2021 - 01:34.


#8 Brawn BGP 001

Brawn BGP 001
  • Member

  • 5,948 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 01:34

2009 Toyota, should have won Bahrain, had chances in Suzuka, Spa too.


Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 17 March 2021 - 01:35.


#9 OO7

OO7
  • Member

  • 23,395 posts
  • Joined: November 04

Posted 17 March 2021 - 01:39

2020 Racing Point RP20



#10 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 6,973 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 01:54

Williams 1998

The 1998 season always comes up in a topic like this. Concerning mainly Benetton, Jordan and Williams. This makes for interesting reading. The Formula 1.5 championship.

https://www.reddit.c...ntent=post_body

So basically the 1998 season without the top two teams... who were miles ahead on performance race by race. The original final championship standings -

5. Villeneuve 21 points
6. Hill 20 points
7. Frentzen 17 points
8. Wurz 17 points
9. Fisichella 16 points
10 R. Schumacher 14 points
11. Alesi 9 points

The F1.5 championship final standings

Villeneuve 73 points (5 poles, 4 wins)
Wurz 62 points (1 pole, 4 wins)
Frentzen 54 points (2 poles, 2 wins)
Fisichella 51 points (5 poles, 2 wins)
Hill 48 points (2 poles, 2 wins)
R. Schumacher 38 points (1 poles, 2 wins)
Alesi 34 points

My key takeaways from this were that Williams had the most linear performance all season, though Benetton and Jordan more pure performance (higher peaks) for large periods. Basically all 3 teams swung from 3rd to 5th best car during the season.

Frentzen was certainly closer to Villeneuve than 1997 and had a strong season. Effectively halved the gap in points but JV still had the higher peaks, more often both in qualifying and races. Frentzens 1999 form at Jordan should come as no surprise given his 1998 season.

In the original standings, Hill finishes only 1 point behind Villeneuve. In the F1.5 standings he's a whopping 25 points off. Which proves that you can't always rely on the points standings for an accurate season long picture of performance.

Given the undoubted quality of the Williams pairing, I'd say Benetton certainly underperformed given their car. We now (rather than at the time) know exactly where Fisichella and Wurz stood in terms of their ultimate quality. The B198 was a very handy car and, contrary to popular belief, was still showing strong qualifying pace late in the season. But with the strong Jordan and revised Williams, the Benetton drivers were being outgunned on race days, no longer possessing a car advantage like early '98.

Last notable point - a good year from Alesi! Not finishing far behind the Jordan's at all... in a totally outclassed Sauber.

#11 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 04:18

I’ll throw one in here... the 2000 Jaguar R1. The preceding Stewart was a very handy car in Barrichello’s hands, and although the Jag had some shocking reliability issues it was also being pedaled by an over the hill Herbert and an outclassed Irvine. I think they could have at least been regular points scorers with a stronger driver pairing.

#12 PlayboyRacer

PlayboyRacer
  • Member

  • 6,973 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 04:23

I’ll throw one in here... the 2000 Jaguar R1. The preceding Stewart was a very handy car in Barrichello’s hands, and although the Jag had some shocking reliability issues it was also being pedaled by an over the hill Herbert and an outclassed Irvine. I think they could have at least been regular points scorers with a stronger driver pairing.

That's actually a very good one. Irvine was actually hauling that thing up into the top 10 in qualy 12 times out of 16 races he competed (missed Austria).

Given pure speed wasn't exactly Irvines strength, it does make you wonder where that car really sat.

#13 Baddoer

Baddoer
  • Member

  • 3,516 posts
  • Joined: October 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 06:37

Ferrari 412T2

Benetton B196

Jordan 197

Minardi M01

Jaguar R4

Williams FW28

Toyota TF109

Sauber C31

Williams FW34



#14 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,837 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:19

I’ll throw one in here... the 2000 Jaguar R1. The preceding Stewart was a very handy car in Barrichello’s hands, and although the Jag had some shocking reliability issues it was also being pedaled by an over the hill Herbert and an outclassed Irvine. I think they could have at least been regular points scorers with a stronger driver pairing.

 

From the outside, it looked like a resprayed Stewart. IIRC, there was an issue with the metallic green paint being rather heavy and reducing the available ballast. (hazy memory)

I heard Gary Anderson talk about that car in a podcast in the last year, I think the problem was a stalling diffuser. They only discovered late in the season (cameras mounted in the back, cotton tassels stuck onto the surfaces of the diffuser. The tassels would randomly droop as the airflow was stopping) and it became a pretty quick. Herbert was running a competitive 5th in the final race before his suspension failure. 



#15 frosty125

frosty125
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:26

MP4-27

#16 BertoC

BertoC
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: August 17

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:31

In relation to the 2001 Mclaren, it was shocking how many points an wins were thrown away not only by reliability but mainly by stalls on the starts. I think that year the launch and traction controls were banned, and DC and Mika managed to stall or do slow starts almost every race. It was infuriating.

Edit: TC and LC were actually reintroduced that year, my bad.

Edited by BertoC, 17 March 2021 - 08:49.


#17 Ferrim

Ferrim
  • Member

  • 1,386 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:32

I've always found criminal that Williams were only 7th in the 2009 constructors. A few gaffes from Rosberg and a disastrous 0-point season from Nakajima left them way down, but they should have been in the running for 3rd until late in the season.

Another one: the 2000 Minardi is always overlooked because it never got points, but it is a serious contender for the best ever Minardi, in terms of gap to the front and specially race pace. They were running 2-year old Cosworths and didn't have qualifying engines available, so they always finished dead last in qualifying, then they couldn't overtake. But whenever something weird happened at the start and they were able to make the midfield, they stayed there with relative ease. Gené finished 8th in Austria, just 13 seconds away from 4th place, and he wasn't anything special as a driver. The thing even made Mazzacane look decent at times...

Edited by Ferrim, 17 March 2021 - 07:38.


#18 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,837 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:50

In relation to the 2001 Mclaren, it was shocking how many points an wins were thrown away not only by reliability but mainly by stalls on the starts. I think that year the launch and traction controls were banned, and DC and Mika managed to stall or do slow starts almost every race. It was infuriating.

 

Was that a Newey car? He probably decided the gearbox bell housing was getting in the way of his airflow and made it so the clutch was the size of a Mini-Disc.  



#19 Spillage

Spillage
  • Member

  • 10,267 posts
  • Joined: May 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 07:51

The Benettons from 1996-98. I think one victory is a pretty paltry return for an outfit that had two third-placed finishes int he WCC and was a regular podium scorer in that period.

 

I also have a sneaking suspicion that the 2003 Williams really ought to have won the world title, although that car was pretty unreliable.



Advertisement

#20 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,467 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:08

The 2012 Sauber C31 was magic, wasn't it? I dunno how they did it but something that happened that year turned them, for one season only, from perennial minor points contenders to potential winners on the right day. Their drivers weren't the most convincing. Perez was young, inexperienced and wildly inconsistent but came good on like three or four weekends, which usually ended up with him on the podium. Kobayashi was more consistent but didn't quite hit the same peaks - but was wiped out after starting P2 at Spa, missing probably a genuine chance to win that one. 

 

Not a massive stretch to think that it could have won quite a bit with stronger drivers. 



#21 Hinkypunk

Hinkypunk
  • Member

  • 38 posts
  • Joined: October 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:13

In relation to the 2001 Mclaren, it was shocking how many points an wins were thrown away not only by reliability but mainly by stalls on the starts. I think that year the launch and traction controls were banned, and DC and Mika managed to stall or do slow starts almost every race. It was infuriating.

TC and Launch Control were introduced in 2001. Not banned. Or did I misunderstand your post?



#22 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,467 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:16

I've always found criminal that Williams were only 7th in the 2009 constructors. A few gaffes from Rosberg and a disastrous 0-point season from Nakajima left them way down, but they should have been in the running for 3rd until late in the season.

Another one: the 2000 Minardi is always overlooked because it never got points, but it is a serious contender for the best ever Minardi, in terms of gap to the front and specially race pace. They were running 2-year old Cosworths and didn't have qualifying engines available, so they always finished dead last in qualifying, then they couldn't overtake. But whenever something weird happened at the start and they were able to make the midfield, they stayed there with relative ease. Gené finished 8th in Austria, just 13 seconds away from 4th place, and he wasn't anything special as a driver. The thing even made Mazzacane look decent at times...

 

The 2000 Minardi is a really good call for all the reasons you said. Lovely livery, too. Even in qualifying, Gene used to pop up ahead of a Prost, or a Sauber on occasion and the only time they were adrift was at the 'power tracks' like Hockenheim. 

 

Given how decent Mazzacane looked that year and how quickly he got booted from Prost I'd say the car maybe flattered him. 



#23 FirstnameLastname

FirstnameLastname
  • Member

  • 7,743 posts
  • Joined: April 18

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:19

Once this thread burns through, we need a ‘cars that ‘look fast’ but went like a sack of proverbial.

#24 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 4,653 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:25

I'm pretty sure we had this thread quite recently. I might have a look.

#25 Cliff

Cliff
  • Member

  • 2,081 posts
  • Joined: June 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:29

RB14 with a different engine.

#26 noikeee

noikeee
  • Member

  • 23,177 posts
  • Joined: February 06

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:34

I'm pretty sure we had this thread quite recently. I might have a look.


We did, and eventually these threads turn sour because they're basically "which cars were wasted by rubbish drivers"

#27 BertoC

BertoC
  • Member

  • 1,637 posts
  • Joined: August 17

Posted 17 March 2021 - 08:48

TC and Launch Control were introduced in 2001. Not banned. Or did I misunderstand your post?

Indeed, you are right. I remembered something major with TC and LC that season, but it was the other way around :D So it probably wasnt related to their poor starts.

#28 Ferrim

Ferrim
  • Member

  • 1,386 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:28

The 2000 Minardi is a really good call for all the reasons you said. Lovely livery, too. Even in qualifying, Gene used to pop up ahead of a Prost, or a Sauber on occasion and the only time they were adrift was at the 'power tracks' like Hockenheim.


Even at Hockenheim, they spent the race fighting Saubers and Prosts. You'll find Gené around the middle of the pack under the safety car caused by that Mercedes employee, right behind Salo and Button IIRC, who finished 5th and 4th. Sadly, his engine went boom around the time the rain started.

Edited by Ferrim, 17 March 2021 - 09:28.


#29 Lights

Lights
  • Member

  • 17,874 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:31

Almost all cars in history were better than they looked, by virtue of not having one of the very best drivers in them.



#30 bogi

bogi
  • Member

  • 4,105 posts
  • Joined: October 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:41

McLaren MP4/18

#31 Anuity

Anuity
  • Member

  • 1,379 posts
  • Joined: September 17

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:43

Even at Hockenheim, they spent the race fighting Saubers and Prosts. You'll find Gené around the middle of the pack under the safety car caused by that Mercedes employee, right behind Salo and Button IIRC, who finished 5th and 4th. Sadly, his engine went boom around the time the rain started.


That Prost car in 2000 was likely even worse than Minardi.

It could also probably get the prize for being one of the most beautiful yet completely useless. Same about Their car in 1999.
Honorable mention in this category should go to Jaguars.

#32 Gambelli

Gambelli
  • Member

  • 2,644 posts
  • Joined: February 19

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:50

The 2012 Sauber C31 was magic, wasn't it? I dunno how they did it but something that happened that year turned them, for one season only, from perennial minor points contenders to potential winners on the right day. Their drivers weren't the most convincing. Perez was young, inexperienced and wildly inconsistent but came good on like three or four weekends, which usually ended up with him on the podium. Kobayashi was more consistent but didn't quite hit the same peaks - but was wiped out after starting P2 at Spa, missing probably a genuine chance to win that one. 

 

Not a massive stretch to think that it could have won quite a bit with stronger drivers. 

 

Wasn't 2012 the year of the changed exhaust rules and it was Sauber that came up with the Coanda effect for the exhaust gasses on the bodywork, that allowed the rear to be blown which everyone subsequently ended up copying?\

 

 

...would have won Malaysia for sure with a top 4 driver.....


Edited by Gambelli, 17 March 2021 - 09:51.


#33 Rinehart

Rinehart
  • Member

  • 15,144 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 09:51

Red Bull 2009. Forever remembered as a year dominated by the Brawn. Reality is Red Bull and Vettel weren't ready.



#34 frosty125

frosty125
  • Member

  • 1,120 posts
  • Joined: October 14

Posted 17 March 2021 - 11:03

MP4-30 I think this was a good car with a very under-developed engine.



#35 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,538 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 17 March 2021 - 12:00

The Prost in 1997 was quite a handy car, but with the Panis crash in Canada, it lost the driver needed to propell it forward. It had 2 podiums and 2 points finishes in the first 6 races and Panis was 3rd in the WDC before the Canadian GP. 

 

The 1995 Ferrari was also a fast car let down by its drivers, just like the 2012 Sauber.



#36 TomNokoe

TomNokoe
  • Member

  • 33,568 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 17 March 2021 - 12:26

I'd love to see 2021 Hamilton drive the 2011 MP4-26 again.

#37 F1matt

F1matt
  • Member

  • 3,228 posts
  • Joined: June 11

Posted 17 March 2021 - 12:50

The Prost in 1997 was quite a handy car, but with the Panis crash in Canada, it lost the driver needed to propell it forward. It had 2 podiums and 2 points finishes in the first 6 races and Panis was 3rd in the WDC before the Canadian GP. 

 

The 1995 Ferrari was also a fast car let down by its drivers, just like the 2012 Sauber.

 

 

The Ferrari had dreadful reliability, Alesi finished less than half the races IIRC, Berger wasn't much better. 



#38 Anderis

Anderis
  • Member

  • 7,344 posts
  • Joined: December 09

Posted 17 March 2021 - 12:58

I've always found criminal that Williams were only 7th in the 2009 constructors. A few gaffes from Rosberg and a disastrous 0-point season from Nakajima left them way down, but they should have been in the running for 3rd until late in the season...

The only gaffe from Rosberg I remember that year was Singapore and it was still very unlucky because SC came out right after and instead of dropping from 2nd to 4th or so (had a rather sizeable gap over midfield at that point), he dropped out of points completely. I think 2009 was Rosberg's best season at Williams by a large margin and better than some of his years at Mercedes.
How Williams lost a lot of points in 2009 is that they always seemed to be on a wrong strategy and made a few too many bad pit stops as well. As a Williams fan, it was annoyingly incredible how many opportunities they've thrown away.

It started in Australia where Rosberg should've been on podium but for some reason Williams planned a much longer stint on softer tyres for him than anyone else did, which was obviously a large mistake as those tyres only lasted a couple of laps and everybody knew it. It resulted in Nico losing a lot of places during the last stint because his tyres were dead.

Then Malaysia where Rosberg led the race on merit but then the rain came and they were always on wrong tyres. To add insult to injury, the only lap during which Rosberg ran 8th was the one that counted as the final result after the red flag, on every other lap before and after Rosberg's position was higher than 8th.

Then in China Rosberg qualified 7th and then he completely unnecessarily stopped under SC on lap 5 to add more fuel at the cost of dropping from 7th to last. It turned out to be a wrong desicion as more fuel didn't benefit him strategically and he fell to the back and never recovered. Later in the race they tried to switch to intermediate tyres too early and it backfired too.

 

3 races and 3 botched strategies- do you see a pattern here? Rosberg should have been 2nd in WDC after 3 races but he only had 3.5 points at that point. There were more questionable strategies later that year too, for example in Monaco, when Williams did the exact opposite of Australia and underestimated how well the softer tyres would work and planned too short stint on them, carrying too much unnecessarily fuel and staying on slower tyres for too long, which might have even costed him 3rd place (he finished 6th eventually), as every battle he had had with drivers who eventually finished 3rd, 4th and 5th had been extremely close and had he just taken a few kg less fuel onboard, he could've ended up winning all of them.

 

I also remember that in Turkey, Nakajima was going to finish around 6th but they completely botched his pit stop. Even if they didn't botch a pit stop completely, Williams' pit stops were regularly a second or so slower than pit stops of other teams, which was really not a great thing in the closest season in F1 history.



#39 Hinkypunk

Hinkypunk
  • Member

  • 38 posts
  • Joined: October 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 13:02

Indeed, you are right. I remembered something major with TC and LC that season, but it was the other way around :D So it probably wasnt related to their poor starts.

 

My first thought was that it was related to the LC. But they introduced both (LC & TC) not before Barcelona. And he already had issues in Brazil. 



Advertisement

#40 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 13:07

From the outside, it looked like a resprayed Stewart. IIRC, there was an issue with the metallic green paint being rather heavy and reducing the available ballast. (hazy memory)

I heard Gary Anderson talk about that car in a podcast in the last year, I think the problem was a stalling diffuser. They only discovered late in the season (cameras mounted in the back, cotton tassels stuck onto the surfaces of the diffuser. The tassels would randomly droop as the airflow was stopping) and it became a pretty quick. Herbert was running a competitive 5th in the final race before his suspension failure. 

 

Maybe the paint was heavy but my god did it look good. One of my favorite liveries. I loved the hint of red on the airbox inlet. I remember thinking the Cosworth motor had a particularly lovely sound too, having seen them in Canada that year. Not as nice as the shrieking Mclaren, but it had a different pitch than most of the other V10s. 

 

jaguar-6.jpg



#41 Teapot

Teapot
  • Member

  • 337 posts
  • Joined: January 04

Posted 17 March 2021 - 14:29

The Williams FW12 and FW13 are often mentioned as cars that could and should have achieved more in 1989 and 1990, the blame usually landing on Patrese and Boutsen (even if from the top of my head I can recall a couple of instances of the cars giving up the ghost while leading or in podium position). On the other hand I think that 4 wins in two years it's not too bad, given the level of the opposition that they were facing (Senna, Prost, Berger and Mansell in their prime driving for Mclaren and Ferrari teams that were at the top of their strenght).



#42 SenorSjon

SenorSjon
  • Member

  • 17,538 posts
  • Joined: March 12

Posted 17 March 2021 - 14:29

The Ferrari had dreadful reliability, Alesi finished less than half the races IIRC, Berger wasn't much better. 

 

Alesi was almost as reliable as the Ferrari itself. ;)

 

8 retirements

 

Spain engine

Monaco crash <<< against backmarker for being too eager. Twice if you count the mess at the start.

Germany engine

Hungary engine

Belgium suspension

Italy wheel bearing

Japan transmission <<< though he had some wild, bumpy rides through the grass that race which didn't do the fragile Ferrari any favours so I believe he wrecked his own car that race.

Australia collision. Bit clumsy why he DNFed there. I only saw a damaged front wing.

 

I loved Alesi in his Ferrari years, but if you watch his antics throughout the years, he was quite wild and messy. Compilation of 1995: https://www.youtube....h?v=iOr_obbNz3Y.



#43 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 45,958 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 14:30

So I always thought that Jaguar’s plan to run in a more traditional green was abandoned because the paint was too heavy, and their actual livery was the lighter paint.

The green was pretty much the same all the way through to 2004.

#44 jwill189

jwill189
  • Member

  • 2,641 posts
  • Joined: July 16

Posted 17 March 2021 - 14:31

The Ferrari had dreadful reliability, Alesi finished less than half the races IIRC, Berger wasn't much better. 

 

I remember that season well as it was the last V12 in F1.  Mechanical reliability of the Ferrari was horrific, as usual.  Could always expect a motor failure, gearbox failure, suspension failure, etc.  The car got slower to the competition when Ferrari stopped development a third of the way into the season (around the time Schumacher signed).  I was shocked what Alesi was able to do with it at times.



#45 BRK

BRK
  • Member

  • 5,197 posts
  • Joined: November 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 15:21

What about the 1996, 1997 Benettons? Jordan in 1999, at least. BAR in 2004, 2005. Toyota in 2007, 2008, and also after the new rule changes in 2009. I don't hear these cars mentioned often enough in narratives of these seasons.  



#46 JeePee

JeePee
  • Member

  • 5,907 posts
  • Joined: December 11

Posted 17 March 2021 - 15:27

I think we'll find out this year the Mclaren MCL35 was quite a quick car.



#47 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 16:00

I think we'll find out this year the Mclaren MCL35 was quite a quick car.

 

How do you figure? I'd imagine you mean Sainz will get outperformed by Leclerc and Ricciardo will outperform Norris, and I'd agree with you on those, but we'll just have to see what the gaps are. If we're talking a tenth or two over the season, not sure how much that would have affected the pecking order in 2020. 



#48 Risil

Risil
  • Administrator

  • 61,496 posts
  • Joined: February 07

Posted 17 March 2021 - 16:08

We did, and eventually these threads turn sour because they're basically "which cars were wasted by rubbish drivers"

 

I'm interested in stories like Peat's one about the 2000 Jaguar, where cars had plenty of potential that was squandered because of a design flaw that took ages to locate. Happened more in the olden days of course when teams had less analytical capabilities and also had fewer resources to rebuild and replace parts. I read something similar about the Brabham in 1970(?) whose handling went seriously off-boil midseason, it turned out because of a crack in the chassis that went undetected during the summer months.

 

Does anyone remember the Ducati from 2010(?) that Casey Stoner was having terrible trouble with, but then two-thirds of the way through the season they moved his seating position by something like 6 inches and suddenly he became unstoppable?



#49 MrMonaco

MrMonaco
  • Member

  • 604 posts
  • Joined: May 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 16:09

Toyota in 2009. To a lesser degree Red Bull on the same year maybe?

Lotus in 2012 as well. Grosjean plus not-so-up-to his a-game Kimi was not the best duo out there and I suspect that Lewis and Fernando would've given Vettel a lot more trouble that the same Alonso in a Ferrari

Edited by MrMonaco, 17 March 2021 - 16:12.


#50 Dan333SP

Dan333SP
  • Member

  • 4,691 posts
  • Joined: March 10

Posted 17 March 2021 - 16:13

I'm interested in stories like Peat's one about the 2000 Jaguar, where cars had plenty of potential that was squandered because of a design flaw that took ages to locate. Happened more in the olden days of course when teams had less analytical capabilities and also had fewer resources to rebuild and replace parts. I read something similar about the Brabham in 1970(?) whose handling went seriously off-boil midseason, it turned out because of a crack in the chassis that went undetected during the summer months.

 

Does anyone remember the Ducati from 2010(?) that Casey Stoner was having terrible trouble with, but then two-thirds of the way through the season they moved his seating position by something like 6 inches and suddenly he became unstoppable?

 

I remember the 2018 Williams suffering from underfloor stalling that caused spins, especially when combined with DRS flap closures. Not that it would have made the car any quicker, but yea... fundamental aero concept failures are always interesting.