2045 replies to this topic

[FullOppositeLock]

Anyone know the tyre allocation after qualifying?

[Huffer]

why did they stick with a concept that they knew was being nerfed? 

 

Because teams were not allowed to redevelop their cars for this season. They were only allowed to spend a certain amount of tokens on aero development, which would not allow them to change the concept of the car. 

I think this is the part that a lot of people doing the "lol cars are always being nerfed" dance are missing out. When we've had rule changes in the past, all the teams have had the chance respond and were given room to deal with the changes accordingly. And this was typically in response to a certain device that certain teams were using (active suspension, bridge wings, TMD, EBD, DDD, FRICS, DAS etc.). The issue is that we've had changes aimed at certain teams entire car/aero concept being nerfed AND they've not been given the opportunity to properly deal with that.

This goes well beyond the normal cycle of F1. At least in the past you could say that teams affected by certain rule changes were given a fair chance to deal with those changes, but this simply isn't the case with 2021, especially when you consider than on top of those changes, they've been allowed less wind tunnel/CFD time than the other teams. 

Edited by Huffer, 28 March 2021 - 08:51.

[w1Y]

lol gotta laugh at people getting upset that Mercedes' advantage has been stripped away. This is what happens in F1, and has been for some time. They should consider themselves fortunate that they were afforded the opportunity to dominate for as long as they did. If they are such a strong outfit then why did they stick with a concept that they knew was being nerfed? We haven't even had one race, and yet we have Hamilton and Szafnauer complaining about a concerted effort to hamper them.

Welcome to Formula One, where the formula is changed regularly in an attempt to provide a new set of challenges for the teams.

I'm not sure people are getting upset. I think people are just trying to state what they see. It's not like it didn't happen in the past either.

Max deserves some success because he is a fantastic driver and has shown he is in the elite bucket with lewis. Now he has what seems to be the clear best car and he should win. At least today he should.

The media will make this into a Lewis vs max thing and say what we have all been waiting for but in reality the positions have just switched.

Max now has the best car and should win. Lewis typically had the better car in the past (would argue against the Ferrari cheating car he pulled out some epic races) and did win.

There is room to have more than one epic driver despite how people behave. Lewis is one, max is one. Hats off to red bull for doing a great job. I just hope merc can respond and fight back without impacting their effort for the next reg changes.

At the moment I think it is doubtful unless this new floor can make a big difference and it seems merc are having other issues with PU which to me is a sign that the domiamnce is definately over. Bahrain is an odd track but for max it was easy yesterday.

I'm just shocked merc voted for these changes tbh.

Edited by w1Y, 28 March 2021 - 08:48.

[TheAviator]

I'm not sure people are getting upset. I think people are just trying to state what they see. It's not like it didn't happen in the past either.

Max deserves some success because he is a fantastic driver and has shown he is in the elite bucket with lewis. Now he has what seems to be the clear best car and he should win. At least today he should.

The media will make this into a Lewis vs max thing and say what we have all been waiting for but in reality the positions have just switched.

Max now has the best car and should win. Lewis typically had the better car in the past (would argue against the Ferrari cheating car he pulled out some epic races) and did win.

There is room to have more than one epic driver despite how people behave. Lewis is one, max is one. Hats off to red bull for doing a great job. I just hope merc can respond and fight back without impacting their effort for the next reg changes.

At the moment I think it is doubtful unless this new floor can make a big difference and it seems merc are having other issues with PU which to me is a sign that the domiamnce is definately over. Bahrain is an odd track but for max it was easy yesterday.

Ferrari car in 2019 was nowhere near W10. Engine wise, in qualy? Yea. Everything else? Not even close.

2017 and 2018 were clean years where Ham beat Vettel, but if Alonso was the one in 2018 car he would not have won IMO.

[A3]

I have read the second article (skimmed through). Why?
And yeah I believe them. It would make complete sense. Imo Mercedes would not lose around 6 tenths to a second to Red Bull or maybe even more in a couple of months.
It is clear that it is not the engine where Mercedes has the problem.

It's easy to point to the FIA and said they nerfed Merc.

Red Bull have always had a good chassis but they suffered from their engine. When their engine got better, they ran into aero correlation problems and started at least 2 seasons on the back foot.
Merc focussed on the tyres because they could: They had the best engine and a great chassis. The tyres were their weak point.
DAS was introduced and nobody exactly know how much of an advantage that gave Merc. But they lost that for 2021.
The tyres are different, looks like a disadvantage for the Merc, as it always had a small operating window.
Honda improved massively
The Merc engine has derating issues
Red Bull fixed their aero issue and revised their rear suspension

But the narrative is going to be that the FIA nerfed the low rake teams. Hamilton even says so in the media.

The fact is that these changes were imposed in august last year by the FIA on safety grounds. Pirelli just couldn't handle the loads the cars generated, hence the tyre failures at Silvertstone.

Edited by A3, 28 March 2021 - 10:13.

[IrvTheSwerve]

Not sure why there’s so much ‘flapping’ about the rule changes affecting Merc, I mean, they are still P2 and P3 and we haven’t even had the race yet lol. We’ve just become so accustomed to them locking out the front row and by a margin...it got stale a long time ago tbh and I’m surprised that we haven’t seen anything come in earlier to target them. Look at how the FIA dealt with 2004, after one year of domination...

 

As I’ve said in the testing thread, I’m not going to get too excited about Merc being pegged back until a couple of races in. They may well win the next handful of races.

 

It does look like there will at least be a fight though. That’s all I want.

[A3]

I'm just shocked merc voted for these changes tbh.

 

the FIA will be able to enact their proposed changes without the unanimous agreement of the teams, given that the alterations are being made on the grounds of safety – although the decision will still need to be rubber-stamped by the FIA’s World Motor Sport Council.

https://www.formula1...PRYHzPSqqu.html

[w1Y]

Makes you wonder whether merc we're OK with these changes because the new regs moves away from neweys design

Edited by w1Y, 28 March 2021 - 09:05.

[ARTGP]

There is not a whole lot of reference point for low rake cars to be honest.....The Aston Martin is just a Merc in a green suit and it's not their design so naturally they don't really know what to do with it. That just leaves Merc. Red Bull ironed themselves out and the Honda is a kraken (based on Alpha Tauri performance too.) while Merc maybe didn't find the optimal floor solution and have had power unit issues since testing apparently (according to Williams, the Merc power unit has not been operating as expected but has improved since testing, yet still not at 100%).

Edited by ARTGP, 28 March 2021 - 09:13.

[Heyli]

Actually Max is far more likely to have an encounter with Mazepin than some of the midfield drivers because he will be lapping him more often.

Well, that made me a lot less excited...

[masa90]

Why are people so upset that Mercedes is not winning everything? This was a great coincidence for the sport. Seeing same driver all the races all the time has been horrible.

[FullOppositeLock]

Well, that made me a lot less excited...

FYI, Ocon is starting near the back too ;)

[ARTGP]

FYI, Ocon is starting near the back too ;)

You were a troublemaker in grade school weren’t you . Lol

Edited by ARTGP, 28 March 2021 - 09:29.

[JimmyClark]

I also love how the engine change has also become a benefit to merc in peoples minds. Funny how things change because at the time everyone was saying they couldn't get close to mercs party mode in qualy. And then party modes were banned. So yes that was targeted at merc.

People in this place have such a way of re writing history.

It did help Merc though overall. Yes the intention was to possibly rein them in, but it only affected qualifying (and I don't remember noticing much difference). However it did mean that Merc could run higher engine modes than most in the race due to the effectiveness of their engine, and - unless I'm very much mistaken - points are awarded on Sunday and not Saturday. Even Wolff said it was a silly change and it gave his team an advantage still.

[w1Y]

It did help Merc though overall. Yes the intention was to possibly rein them in, but it only affected qualifying (and I don't remember noticing much difference). However it did mean that Merc could run higher engine modes than most in the race due to the effectiveness of their engine, and - unless I'm very much mistaken - points are awarded on Sunday and not Saturday. Even Wolff said it was a silly change and it gave his team an advantage still.

But the whole point is about intention

[JimmyClark]

But the whole point is about intention

I was just clarifying your statement "I also love how the engine change has also become a benefit to merc in peoples minds."

It was likely a small benefit overall. Intention or not, it was a rule change that went their way.

[shure]

Possible, but I don't buy that "the FIA didn't want to pursue it in the courts".

They either had evidence of wrongdoing, or they didn't and if so taking it to "the courts" wouldn't lead into a guilty verdict. I thought technical infringements weren't usually settled in "the courts" anyway, either you pass scrutineering for the race or you don't.

That's not taking into account how insanely complicated these PUs are.  The FIA admitted they couldn't wholly prove it.  That shouldn't even be up for discussion.  The whole point of going to court is that both parties feel they have a case, otherwise why bother?  

[P123]

Not sure why there’s so much ‘flapping’ about the rule changes affecting Merc, I mean, they are still P2 and P3 and we haven’t even had the race yet lol. We’ve just become so accustomed to them locking out the front row and by a margin...it got stale a long time ago tbh and I’m surprised that we haven’t seen anything come in earlier to target them. Look at how the FIA dealt with 2004, after one year of domination...

 

As I’ve said in the testing thread, I’m not going to get too excited about Merc being pegged back until a couple of races in. They may well win the next handful of races.

 

It does look like there will at least be a fight though. That’s all I want.

 

Indeed, Merc are still thereabouts, and I'm sure they will work on their weaknesses.  Red Bull have been threatening for a couple of seasons and it's been close enough that one getting it right and the other suffering a bit would be enough to cause a swing in fortunes.

 

As for your surprise at nothing targeting them previously, perhaps just part of the wilful collective amnesia of this forum, but we know that's not anywhere near the truth.

[shure]

F1 is business and entertainment first, morals and fairness are secondary. Ferrari scandal is bad for business.

The dummy spitting exhibited by the FIA after they agreed to settle was very much intended to show the world that the FIA thought that Ferrari were cheating.  If avoiding scandal was the primary concern, then it's a very ham fisted way of going about it.  This idea that there's some kind of grand conspiracy behind closed doors is just people's imaginations working overtime

[w1Y]

As for your surprise at nothing targeting them previously, perhaps just part of the wilful collective amnesia of this forum, but we know that's not anywhere near the truth.

This whole forum suffers from severe amnesia

[A3]

Not sure why there’s so much ‘flapping’ about the rule changes affecting Merc, I mean, they are still P2 and P3 and we haven’t even had the race yet lol. We’ve just become so accustomed to them locking out the front row and by a margin...it got stale a long time ago tbh and I’m surprised that we haven’t seen anything come in earlier to target them. Look at how the FIA dealt with 2004, after one year of domination...

 

I don't understand either.

 

But Lewis surprised me the most.

 

Last year he was talking about how he loved the competition and hoped Red Bull would be in the mix and now he publicly claims that rules that were introduced after tyre failures are aimed to slow Mercedes down and that this is "no secret". Sounds like a sore loser even before he lost anything. He doesn't need that. His car is sensitive with tyres, tyres are even harder now, they've lost DAS and their engine has issues. But no, it's the rules that did it. Give me a break.

[noikeee]

The dummy spitting exhibited by the FIA after they agreed to settle was very much intended to show the world that the FIA thought that Ferrari were cheating. If avoiding scandal was the primary concern, then it's a very ham fisted way of going about it. This idea that there's some kind of grand conspiracy behind closed doors is just people's imaginations working overtime

Well apparently it's on Mika Salo's imagination too.

You still haven't explained what Ferrari agreed to in their settlement, unless you think all they agreed to was, "sure we won't use the extra power anymore". But if that's what you believe, that doesn't explain the performance pattern : after the settlement they became a bit slower the rest of the season sure, but it wasn't until the first race of 2020 that they suddenly became catastrophically slow in a straight line and having to compromise the downforce of the entire car to compensate. And now, guess what, that doesn't seem to be a problem at all anymore and they're back to where they were the final races of 2019.

[krapmeister]

I don't understand either.

 

But Lewis surprised me the most.

 

Last year he was talking about how he loved the competition and hoped Red Bull would be in the mix and now he publicly claims that rules that were introduced after tyre failures are aimed to slow Mercedes down and that this is "no secret". Sounds like a sore loser even before he lost anything. He doesn't need that. His car is sensitive with tyres, tyres are even harder now, they've lost DAS and their engine has issues. But no, it's the rules that did it. Give me a break.

 

No surprise there really - Lewis says he loves the competition, but at the same time like pretty much every other driver he will also try and protect any advantage he has. Hence, Bottas. 

[w1Y]

I don't understand either.

But Lewis surprised me the most.

Last year he was talking about how he loved the competition and hoped Red Bull would be in the mix and now he publicly claims that rules that were introduced after tyre failures are aimed to slow Mercedes down and that this is "no secret". Sounds like a sore loser even before he lost anything. He doesn't need that. His car is sensitive with tyres, tyres are even harder now, they've lost DAS and their engine has issues. But no, it's the rules that did it. Give me a break.

Pretty clear it's the rules that's impacted them more. You have to be blind to see it otherwise.

[A3]

Anyone know the tyre allocation after qualifying?

Advantage Verstappen

Edited by A3, 28 March 2021 - 10:22.

[noikeee]

BTW I don't believe the 2021 rule changes were targeted at Mercedes, because nobody expected this, none of the experts, none of teams were saying "ohhh this'll be bad for the low rake cars".

Yes there's been rule changes to nerf dominant cars at various points in the recent history of F1 (last 2 decades) but I don't think this was one of them. They just got the short straw and we're gonna watch a better season thanks to it.

[A3]

Pretty clear it's the rules that's impacted them more. You have to be blind to see it otherwise.

 

I'm not saying I don't see that it impacted them more. And it's not wrong to say that either. 

 

But when it's changed to "they designed them to slow us down" then that gets on my nerves. It's pathetic really. It's pretty stupid that they say that when Mercedes were the onces with punctures in Silvertsone, the reason for the rules change.

[shure]

Well apparently it's on Mika Salo's imagination too.

You still haven't explained what Ferrari agreed to in their settlement, unless you think all they agreed to was, "sure we won't use the extra power anymore". But if that's what you believe, that doesn't explain the performance pattern : after the settlement they became a bit slower the rest of the season sure, but it wasn't until the first race of 2020 that they suddenly became catastrophically slow in a straight line and having to compromise the downforce of the entire car to compensate. And now, guess what, that doesn't seem to be a problem at all anymore and they're back to where they were the final races of 2019.

If I had all the technical explanations then so would the FIA and we wouldn't be having this conversation.  I made it clear in a previous reply that the FIA couldn't see exactly how they were doing what they were doing but they could see the effect it was having. No doubt this was connected to the inexplicable acceleration characteristics that some of the teams were talking about.

 

So Ferrari had to remove whatever it was that was giving them that boost.  If it's a bolt on, then no issues.  But if it's an integral part of the PU design then they have to redesign without it.  And they didn't finish in time before Covid hit.

[ConsiderAndGo]

Are we looking at a one or two stopper here ??

[Risil]

Race thread this way -- please direct your comments about the race in prospect there.

[Ali623]

Are we looking at a one or two stopper here ??

 

Two stopper according to Pirelli. 

[David Lightman]

Watching footage of the Red Bull in particular makes me hate the whole high rake concept even more. They look ridiculous jacked up like somebody fitted the wrong parts.

Edited by David Lightman, 28 March 2021 - 10:40.

[FullOppositeLock]

Advantage Verstappen

Perez will have his work cut out. With that tyre allocation he's pretty much resigned to a two stopper now you'd think. It's going to be interesting to see which tyre he will start the race on. Pirelli reckon M-H-M is fastest, followed by S-H-M, S-M-M and S-H-S. Sergio could try to start on hards and go long trying to stay ahead of some of the Q3 qualifiers starting on used softs by the time he makes his first stop, but he will also be exposed in the first few laps to others behind him starting on softer compounds so could easily drop backwards if he doesn't have a good start and first lap.

[PTTM]

"In hindsight, you can stare a cow bull in it's arse" 

 

 

 

...is an awfull translation of an ironic Dutch saying. (Maybe we should swap 'cow' for 'bull' at this moment  )

 

Although the discussions about 'which team are affected most by the 2021 FIA changes' are very interesting and amusing. It's now turning into 'why 'nerfed' the FIA the low rake care som much?' That is a side-effect.

https://www.fia.com/...s-status-update

 

The changes for 2021 were foremost implemented to make racing more interesting (allow closer racing, more on-track duels etc etc) and NOT to punish either team. Remember that when the rules were announced, the common opinion was that it would 'hurt' the hi-rake care most.

 

After Qualification I liked Lewis' attitude. Kinda looked as if he was happy he's got a challenge on his hands.

Personally I am looking forward to this season. Not only to see how the championship battle will turn out, but also to see if the regulation changes will have the desired effect.

 

Bring it on! 

[FullOppositeLock]

7 posts in 20 years

 

Welcome (back)

[superdelphinus]

Is it happening? gotta wait for a few more races but I think its happening..

Amazing job by Honda and Red Bull.

Heavy nod to the regulation changes too, especially when you look at who’s lost the most and the least over the winter. It’s interesting that they’ve waited until now to introduce the floor reg changes - almost like they waited for SLH to get his seventh title!

[PTTM]

7 posts in 20 years

 

Welcome (back)

Well thanks, I am a regular reader and enjoyer of these boards 

[Burtros]

If (And it’s an if) Mercedes have been pegged back deliberately by the FIA finally then it’s taken far too long for them to act. Should have happened years ago.

They wasted no time doing it to others in the past, McLaren, Ferrari, Renault, Red Bull.

I actually think the FIA have got lucky and were not aiming at Merc on this and it’s perhaps to early to say for sure if they have lost the advantage.

[w1Y]

I think trying to even up racing is ok if its fair. Next year everyone has the same opportunity.

All the limited development and token system has done is hampered competition including mercs advantage and when you put that at a time of a change in regs then its unequal and limits teams opportunitybto respond.

We have been in a situation for years where the fia, in an attempt to reduce costs, has given teams no chance of catching up, which has probably hit them financially too.

[rodlamas]

https://youtu.be/qfCdw7NWFs8

Leclerc put the Ferrari P4 on the grid a few times in 2020 and dropped like a stone in the race. It is the same thing, unless otherwise noted.

It was not even a great lap by Leclerc. He would have beat Bottas with a good second to last corner.

That Ferrari have serious pace.

[glenncondor]

Mazepin....three laps, two spins....A 'Mobile Chicane' returns to F1?

 

And if Steiner thinks he's ever going to get a Blue Chip sponsor (apart from a Russian buy out), he's deluded, what Blue Chip company is going to have their millions payed with by someone who now makes himself famous (on Channel 4 F1 as well as Netflix now) as a constantly swearing clown and playing up to it!  He's becoming a bit embarrassing....

Edited by glenncondor, 28 March 2021 - 11:45.

[MortenF1]

BTW I don't believe the 2021 rule changes were targeted at Mercedes, because nobody expected this, none of the experts, none of teams were saying "ohhh this'll be bad for the low rake cars".

Yes there's been rule changes to nerf dominant cars at various points in the recent history of F1 (last 2 decades) but I don't think this was one of them. They just got the short straw and we're gonna watch a better season thanks to it.

I think I wrote it here in December, that surely the car with the biggest floor area, ie the long wheelbase cars, would be likely to get the hardest hit. The difference in “sealing the diffuser” on the low rake cars isn’t that big that it would counter for the area loss the long wheelbase cars gets.
...was my thinking, but I don’t consider myself “technical enough” to push that theory, but perhaps my thinking wasn’t wrong.

[geralt]

I'm not saying I don't see that it impacted them more. And it's not wrong to say that either. 

 

But when it's changed to "they designed them to slow us down" then that gets on my nerves. It's pathetic really. It's pretty stupid that they say that when Mercedes were the onces with punctures in Silvertsone, the reason for the rules change.

Is it really stupid? Why did they ban party modes last year? Was it not to reduce the gap between Merc and the competition?

 

I think it's pretty clear they've been trying to slow down Merc for a while now. And there's nothing wrong with that, if anything they should have acted a season or 2 ago

[A3]

Is it really stupid?

In my opinion it is, when you never comment on the changes until the cars hit the track and you find out you're behind. Toto was asked about it in december and he never said anything about them being affected more than others. And even at the launch they hid their floor because they thought they had an advantage.

Why did they ban party modes last year? Was it not to reduce the gap between Merc and the competition?

They banned them because they couldn't be sure everybody was acting within the rules.

The problem with today's power sources is that although the hardware can be completely legal, there is still a possibility of operating it illegally."

"To prevent this, we need to continuously monitor an endless amount of parameters through the software, as well as the signals and sensor messages while driving. If a driver adjusts the engine settings every lap, it is very difficult to check the operation of the engine every lap to see if it complies with the rules. Especially during special moments in a race, such as the lap before or after a pit stop or when overtaking."

[Ivanhoe]

Pretty clear it's the rules that's impacted them more. You have to be blind to see it otherwise.

Many seem to exclude the possibility that Red Bull just did a better job for once and that Mercedes are not infallible.

[masa90]

That cry from before race about certain fans looks even saltier and more ridiculous now. Imagine being so arrogant that your lose your cool when your favourite now has to fight for wins and titles instead of cruising to them like the last 7 years. Disgraceful stuff.

 

But, on the topic now.

 

Great race all over, shame that Red Bull lost on the tactic front to Mercedes today.

 

This battle reminded me of something like 2006 with MSC and Alonso, with Bottas and Perez acting as second gunners. They drove a pretty good race, but just were not a match.

 

Nice battle between Ferrari, McLaren, Aston Martin.

 

Kimi drove a great race.

 

Also sad to see just far Haas was. Williams 2019 vibes.

 

Also yay, a proper fight and battles all over. And, no stupid quali races. Would ruined todays race a bit in my opinion.

 

Vettel looked lost, just like he has for a long time. Shame for a former multi championship-

Edited by masa90, 28 March 2021 - 17:44.