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Could Leclerc have legally overtaken Verstappen at the Imola 2021 restart? [split topic]


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#1 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 12:41

So looking at the regs Max was very very very lucky that Charles was kind and didn't overtake him while he was off track.

 

Art 42.6 says that if you drop back from your position you can retake if you do it by the 1st SC line. Failing to do so means you must enter the pits and start from the pit lane.

Art 42.12 however says that on a rolling restart once the safety car lights go out you are not allowed to overtake. In this case the lights went out at turn 10.

 

The question is what would the stewards have done? Charles takes the place while Max is mowing the grass so that seems fair. As per the above regs had Charles passed Max would have been obliged to start from the pit lane to follow 42.6 and 42.12. I think Max was just as lucky as Hamilton was. Hamilton was lucky the red flag reset the race and gave him a chance and Max is lucky Leclerc did not overtake as he probably had a right to. Lando says he would have done it if he was behind Max and I wonder what fireworks there would have been if he did.



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#2 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 12:47

So looking at the regs Max was very very very lucky that Charles was kind and didn't overtake him while he was off track.

 

Art 42.6 says that if you drop back from your position you can retake if you do it by the 1st SC line. Failing to do so means you must enter the pits and start from the pit lane.

Art 42.12 however says that on a rolling restart once the safety car lights go out you are not allowed to overtake. In this case the lights went out at turn 10.

 

The question is what would the stewards have done? Charles takes the place while Max is mowing the grass so that seems fair. As per the above regs had Charles passed Max would have been obliged to start from the pit lane to follow 42.6 and 42.12. I think Max was just as lucky as Hamilton was. Hamilton was lucky the red flag reset the race and gave him a chance and Max is lucky Leclerc did not overtake as he probably had a right to. Lando says he would have done it if he was behind Max and I wonder what fireworks there would have been if he did.

I think that's stretching it a bit.  It would have been a slight inconvenience to Max as there's no reason to suspect he would have been help up by Leclerc any longer than Hamilton was.  It's not in the same league as being gifted a restart which all but wipes away you going off track, having to replace the nose of the car and the combined time loss undoubtedly meaning you will be a lap down and lucky to get into the points, when instead you get to start 9th while in a car considerably faster than the conveniently bunched up field in front of you.  "Just as lucky" is a bit creative



#3 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 12:56

I think that's stretching it a bit.  It would have been a slight inconvenience to Max as there's no reason to suspect he would have been help up by Leclerc any longer than Hamilton was.  It's not in the same league as being gifted a restart which all but wipes away you going off track, having to replace the nose of the car and the combined time loss undoubtedly meaning you will be a lap down and lucky to get into the points, when instead you get to start 9th while in a car considerably faster than the conveniently bunched up field in front of you.  "Just as lucky" is a bit creative

 

He would not have been allowed to start from P2 on the road and would have been given a 30s penalty like Kimi was.

 

Article 42.6 obliges you to start from the pitane if you cannot recover your position prior to SC line 1. Article 42.12 prevents you from overtaking on track until the start line once the safety car lights go out for a rolling restart.

 

Max would have had to restart from the pit lane or just go for it and hope for the best.

 

EDIT: 30s would have put Max 5th behind Carlos so would probably have been the better option vs a pit lane start. He may have driven a faster final stint as well if they knew that kind of penalty was incoming but he was not exactly slow regardless.


Edited by Timorous, 19 April 2021 - 13:01.


#4 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:04

He would not have been allowed to start from P2 on the road and would have been given a 30s penalty like Kimi was.

 

Article 42.6 obliges you to start from the pitane if you cannot recover your position prior to SC line 1. Article 42.12 prevents you from overtaking on track until the start line once the safety car lights go out for a rolling restart.

 

Max would have had to restart from the pit lane or just go for it and hope for the best.

 

EDIT: 30s would have put Max 5th behind Carlos so would probably have been the better option vs a pit lane start. He may have driven a faster final stint as well if they knew that kind of penalty was incoming but he was not exactly slow regardless.

Not really, looking at the video Leclerc would have had to really floor it to get past Max as the wobbler wasn't that dramatic.  Given they weren't actually racing yet as max was dictating the pace i very much doubt that Leclerc would have been allowed to keep the position or that Max would have been forced to the back.  People are making the issue out to be much much bigger than it actually was

 



#5 jpm2019

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:07

Restart / overtaking rules need to be relooked at.... 

 

If Charles overtook Verstappen. What would have happend with Verstappen? To prevent a penalty he should have parked the car. It's very dangerous.

 

Also if Perez did not regain his positions. Imagine the chaos where everybody find their new grid spot. It would have been total chaos. 



#6 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:12

Not really, looking at the video Leclerc would have had to really floor it to get past Max as the wobbler wasn't that dramatic.  Given they weren't actually racing yet as max was dictating the pace i very much doubt that Leclerc would have been allowed to keep the position or that Max would have been forced to the back.  People are making the issue out to be much much bigger than it actually was

 

 

The penalty is mandatory. Lando says he would have overtaken and had Charles gone for the restart at that moment Max would not have been able to take the position by SC Line 1 since they would be at full racing speed and he would have needed till the end of the straight. As per 42.6 it is a slam dunk 30s penalty if you do not enter the pit lane.



#7 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:15

I wonder if Charles would be allowed to overtake in this situation, where Max was never off track with all 4 wheels. 



#8 JeePee

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:17

ps. Check how Max swaps his hands mid spin to grab his clutch paddle. Damn.



#9 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:18

Restart / overtaking rules need to be relooked at.... 

 

If Charles overtook Verstappen. What would have happend with Verstappen? To prevent a penalty he should have parked the car. It's very dangerous.

 

Also if Perez did not regain his positions. Imagine the chaos where everybody find their new grid spot. It would have been total chaos. 

 

Per 42.6 if Charles had overtaken Verstappen and Verstappen had not regained 1st by SC line 1 (arguably prohibited by 42.12 for a rolling restart, practically by Charles going to full racing speed at that moment) then he should go into the pits and start from there.

 

For a standing start not forcing people to work out their new grid slot within mere seconds is why cars who cannot get back to their correct position need to start from the pit lane. For a rolling start it seems less important but rolling starts are pretty uncommon so it probably could be revised and made more clear.



#10 Requiem84

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:19

Did this drift now finally convince some people it is not only sheer luck that Verstappen can sort a control the car at insane yaw angels?



#11 jpm2019

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:20

Per 42.6 if Charles had overtaken Verstappen and Verstappen had not regained 1st by SC line 1 (arguably prohibited by 42.12 for a rolling restart, practically by Charles going to full racing speed at that moment) then he should go into the pits and start from there.

 

For a standing start not forcing people to work out their new grid slot within mere seconds is why cars who cannot get back to their correct position need to start from the pit lane. For a rolling start it seems less important but rolling starts are pretty uncommon so it probably could be revised and made more clear.

still dangerous. Max could have speed up to prevent Charles from overtaking. This is not the situation you would want behind a safety car with a full pack behind you. Remember Mugello. 



#12 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:21

I wonder if Charles would be allowed to overtake in this situation, where Max was never off track with all 4 wheels. 

 

That is what Charles was thinking about but it was a blink and you miss it moment so the act of thinking about it was enough to close the opportunity. Personally as long as Leclerc had gone passed before Max had fully gathered it up I think it should have been fine. It would be harsh to give Leclerc a penalty for that.

 

Even so by reg 42.6 they both would have gotten penalties for starting out of position had the stewards felt that Leclerc should not have done it.



#13 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:21

It was just an unconventional way of dictating the pace!



#14 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:22

still dangerous. Max could have speed up to prevent Charles from overtaking. This is not the situation you would want behind a safety car with a full pack behind you. Remember Mugello. 

 

Max rejoining unsafely after losing control to prevent that would be dangerous yes. That would be on Max though. Charles taking advantage of an opponents mistake not so much.



#15 JeePee

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:24

That is what Charles was thinking about but it was a blink and you miss it moment so the act of thinking about it was enough to close the opportunity. Personally as long as Leclerc had gone passed before Max had fully gathered it up I think it should have been fine. It would be harsh to give Leclerc a penalty for that.

 

Even so by reg 42.6 they both would have gotten penalties for starting out of position had the stewards felt that Leclerc should not have done it.

One thing is for sure: Leclerc saved himself, the stewards and the servers of this board a lot less headaches for not gunning for a place he was always going to lose. 



#16 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:24

Max rejoining unsafely after losing control to prevent that would be dangerous yes. That would be on Max though. Charles taking advantage of an opponents mistake not so much.

I don't think Max was ever off-track with 4 wheels, so he wouldn't have to rejoin.



#17 jpm2019

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:28

Max rejoining unsafely after losing control to prevent that would be dangerous yes. That would be on Max though. Charles taking advantage of an opponents mistake not so much.

 

I think it is not right to talk about taking advantage when there is no race. When someone can safely rejoin I think they should be given the opportunity. 



#18 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:32

The penalty is mandatory. Lando says he would have overtaken and had Charles gone for the restart at that moment Max would not have been able to take the position by SC Line 1 since they would be at full racing speed and he would have needed till the end of the straight. As per 42.6 it is a slam dunk 30s penalty if you do not enter the pit lane.

That same rule also stipulates

 

Overtaking during the formation lap is only permitted if a car is delayed and cars behind cannot avoid passing it without unduly delaying the remainder of the field.

 

And as we can see from the video above that is clearly not the case, so I still think much is being made out of nothing.  Leclerc wouldn't have been able to say he was being unduly delayed as Verstappen's off was over in the blink of an eye.  

 

Incidentally, in the procedures for the rolling restart, which this one was, it states only:

 

No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits. The race will be deemed to have started when the leading car crosses the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits

 

so Leclerc really wouldn't have had a case for trying an overtake there anyway.  Not a slam dunk at all



#19 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:33

I wonder if Charles would be allowed to overtake in this situation, where Max was never off track with all 4 wheels. 

I really don't think he would have been



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#20 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:35

I think it is not right to talk about taking advantage when there is no race. When someone can safely rejoin I think they should be given the opportunity. 

 

There is always a race. Look at Seb using the pit entry to overtake by knowing the rules inside out a few years ago. Knowing the rules and being ruthless can get you the win.



#21 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:42

One thing is for sure: Leclerc saved himself, the stewards and the servers of this board a lot less headaches for not gunning for a place he was always going to lose. 

 

Oh definitely. The stewards would have been in a right pickle. Judgement call on weather Leclerc was allowed to overtake or not. If not then it *lets finish this sentence* becomes a right cluster because you have 2 cars starting out of position. 1 because they overtook when they shouldnt and another because they had a moment and were overtaken just as the race restarted and were not able to regain their position.

 

That same rule also stipulates

 

Overtaking during the formation lap is only permitted if a car is delayed and cars behind cannot avoid passing it without unduly delaying the remainder of the field.

 

And as we can see from the video above that is clearly not the case, so I still think much is being made out of nothing.  Leclerc wouldn't have been able to say he was being unduly delayed as Verstappen's off was over in the blink of an eye.  

 

Incidentally, in the procedures for the rolling restart, which this one was, it states only:

 

No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits. The race will be deemed to have started when the leading car crosses the Line after the safety car has returned to the pits

 

so Leclerc really wouldn't have had a case for trying an overtake there anyway.  Not a slam dunk at all

 

It would have 100% been a slam dunk.

 

Charles overtakes and restarts ahead of Max. If the stewards find that Charles was not allowed because Max had a part of his car on track at all times then it just means 2 cars started out of position. Charles may get more penalties for breaching more rules but both would have contravened 42.6 so both would have atleast the 30s penalty that Kimi got since that penalty is mandatory. 


Edited by Timorous, 19 April 2021 - 13:49.


#22 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 13:51

Oh definitely. The stewards would have been in a right pickle. Judgement call on weather Leclerc was allowed to overtake or not. If not then it 

 

 

It would have 100% been a slam dunk.

 

Charles overtakes and restarts ahead of Max. If the stewards find that Charles was not allowed because Max had a part of his car on track at all times then it just means 2 cars started out of position. Charles may get more penalties for breaching more rules but both would have contravened 42.6 so both would have atleast the 30s penalty that Kimi got since that penalty is mandatory. 

No, it wouldn't.  Charles had no grounds to overtake.  This is the bit you seem to miss.  Max was off track with 4 wheels for the merest of moments and the whole point of driving behind the SC is that they aren't racing.  Leclerc flooring it would have been every it as irresponsible as Perez overtaking further back.  The very first line in the rule you yourself quoted (albeit omitting that bit) stated that cars may not overtake unless they can't avoid it.  Leclerc would be blatantly flouting that if he attempted to overtake which means he would be the one out of position, not Max.

 

100% not a slam dunk



#23 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:10

No, it wouldn't.  Charles had no grounds to overtake.  This is the bit you seem to miss.  Max was off track with 4 wheels for the merest of moments and the whole point of driving behind the SC is that they aren't racing.  Leclerc flooring it would have been every it as irresponsible as Perez overtaking further back.  The very first line in the rule you yourself quoted (albeit omitting that bit) stated that cars may not overtake unless they can't avoid it.  Leclerc would be blatantly flouting that if he attempted to overtake which means he would be the one out of position, not Max.

 

100% not a slam dunk

 

 

 

42.6 Overtaking behind the safety car is only permitted in the following cases:

 

a) Any driver who is delayed when leaving his position in the fast lane or during the lap(s) behind the safety car may overtake to re-establish his original starting position provided he does so before he crosses the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits. Should he fail to do so he must re-enter the pit lane and may only re-join the race once the whole field has passed the end of the pit lane after the race has been resumed. 2021 Formula 1 Sporting Regulations 47/89 16 December 2020 ©2020 Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile Issue 5 A penalty under Article 38.3(d) will be imposed on any driver who fails to re-enter the pit lane if he has not re-established the original starting order before he reaches the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.

 

b) Drivers may leave the fast lane in order to overtake any car delayed when leaving its position in the fast lane.

 

 

42.12 If, after several laps behind the safety car, track conditions are considered unsuitable to start the race from a standing start, the message “ROLLING START” will be sent to all teams Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “RS” and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the teams Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap. At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it. As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the FIA light panels will be extinguished and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line (see Article 5.3) for the first time after the safety car has returned to the pits. Each lap completed while the safety car is deployed will be counted as a race lap.

 

Max was delayed as is evident by how hard Leclerc had to brake to avoid passing him. Had Leclerc's instinct been to 'restart' the race like any other safety car restart then I find it unlikely the stewards would have penalised him for overtaking a delayed car. It is definitely a discussion that would have been had.

 

The point is that no matter which way the stewards rule on Leclerc due to the proximity of the incident to SC line 1 it would have been impossible for Max to regain his position so he would have broken 42.6. If the stewards felt Leclerc should not have overtaken then Leclerc would have as well so they both would have had penalties.

 

It was very much an approaching traffic lights that change in that critical stop/go zone and Charles chose to brake. Lando says he would have gone.



#24 Requiem84

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:24

Max was delayed as is evident by how hard Leclerc had to brake to avoid passing him. Had Leclerc's instinct been to 'restart' the race like any other safety car restart then I find it unlikely the stewards would have penalised him for overtaking a delayed car. It is definitely a discussion that would have been had.

 

The point is that no matter which way the stewards rule on Leclerc due to the proximity of the incident to SC line 1 it would have been impossible for Max to regain his position so he would have broken 42.6. If the stewards felt Leclerc should not have overtaken then Leclerc would have as well so they both would have had penalties.

 

It was very much an approaching traffic lights that change in that critical stop/go zone and Charles chose to brake. Lando says he would have gone.

 

If the criteria is driver x had to brake for driver y, so driver y was 'delayed', it will get a bit strange. Because all drivers constantly have to brake during warm-up laps before the (re) start of a race since everyone is warming up their tires and driving rather erratically.

 

The main point of your argument hinges on the assumption that Leclerc would have been in its right to overtake Verstappen. I think that is doubtful at best. 



#25 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:32

Max was delayed as is evident by how hard Leclerc had to brake to avoid passing him. Had Leclerc's instinct been to 'restart' the race like any other safety car restart then I find it unlikely the stewards would have penalised him for overtaking a delayed car. It is definitely a discussion that would have been had.

 

The point is that no matter which way the stewards rule on Leclerc due to the proximity of the incident to SC line 1 it would have been impossible for Max to regain his position so he would have broken 42.6. If the stewards felt Leclerc should not have overtaken then Leclerc would have as well so they both would have had penalties.

 

It was very much an approaching traffic lights that change in that critical stop/go zone and Charles chose to brake. Lando says he would have gone.

Except Leclerc didn't have to brake that hard.  He was already braking into the corner and it would have been extremely difficult for him to be able to claim that he would have been unduly delaying the rest of the field, in the rule I quoted above which you again appear to have omitted.  max didn't spend any significant tine off track and Leclerc had no grounds to overtake and probably would have had a penalty for unsafe driving if he'd tried.  They tend to frown on racy actions during the SC. 



#26 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:45

If the criteria is driver x had to brake for driver y, so driver y was 'delayed', it will get a bit strange. Because all drivers constantly have to brake during warm-up laps before the (re) start of a race since everyone is warming up their tires and driving rather erratically.

 

The main point of your argument hinges on the assumption that Leclerc would have been in its right to overtake Verstappen. I think that is doubtful at best. 

 

Max was all 4 wheels off track for a period though and for most of it he was trying to avoid a spin. It would be incredibly harsh to penalise Leclerc for overtaking at that moment. Especially as that is a valid safety car restart point and Max restarting there would have been normal and expected.



#27 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:50

The penalty is mandatory. Lando says he would have overtaken and had Charles gone for the restart at that moment Max would not have been able to take the position by SC Line 1 since they would be at full racing speed and he would have needed till the end of the straight. As per 42.6 it is a slam dunk 30s penalty if you do not enter the pit lane.

 

Going by what happened, I'd say Charles would have got a penalty for overtaking before the restart. Max had moment but I don't think it was enough for drivers behind to legally overtake him.



#28 Requiem84

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:51

Max was all 4 wheels off track for a period though and for most of it he was trying to avoid a spin. It would be incredibly harsh to penalise Leclerc for overtaking at that moment. Especially as that is a valid safety car restart point and Max restarting there would have been normal and expected.

 

Let's compare it to Perez, he went of behind the SC and was in the actual gravel trap - which is far behind the kerbs and the painted green concrete. Perez was spending about 3-4 seconds there I reckon. Verstappen wasn't in the gravel, didn't spin his car and was still having forward momentum. 

 

As the speed was very low for the whole train Leclerc didn't have to brake any harder than he had been doing behind the SC. 

Whereas with the Perez incident, both drivers overtaking Perez basically had to come to a full halt to not pass Perez. 

 

Both are very different situations. In Perez' situation it was fully clear other cars could pass him. In Max' situation it simply wasn't fully clear. 



#29 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:52

Going by what happened, I'd say Charles would have got a penalty for overtaking before the restart. Max had moment but I don't think it was enough for drivers behind to legally overtake him.

 

I am not sure. Charles could have said he thought Max was restarting the race because saw/heard max gun it and then Max drops it and it is too late because he is already in front and slamming on the brakes could cause a Mugello type situation.

 

Lando said he would have gone for it and that would have created fireworks depending on how the stewards ruled. 



#30 ANF

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:55

Going by what happened, I'd say Charles would have got a penalty for overtaking before the restart. Max had moment but I don't think it was enough for drivers behind to legally overtake him.

I think he would have been given a drive-through or a stop-and-go penalty for unnecessarily overtaking another car:

42.8 The race will be resumed behind the safety car when the green lights are illuminated and the safety car leaves the pit lane. Drivers must follow the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart.

42.9 Either of the penalties under Article 38.3(c ) or (d) will be imposed on any driver who, in the opinion of the stewards, unnecessarily overtook another car during the lap (or laps).



#31 Ivanhoe

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:56

I am not sure. Charles could have said he thought Max was restarting the race because saw/heard max gun it and then Max drops it and it is too late because he is already in front and slamming on the brakes could cause a Mugello type situation

That would be a really strange place to gun it at corner entry



#32 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:57

I am not sure. Charles could have said he thought Max was restarting the race because saw/heard max gun it and then Max drops it and it is too late because he is already in front and slamming on the brakes could cause a Mugello type situation.

 

Lando said he would have gone for it and that would have created fireworks depending on how the stewards ruled. 

 

What Lando said is irrelevant. He'd have got a penalty too. It's the leader who determines the pace. If Charles had overtaken Max, it wouldn't matter if he thought Max was going for the restart, he'd have still overtaken under yellow and got a penalty. The only thing to save him in that situation would be if Max had fully spun off, but he didn't. He had a moment and kept going. Charles did the correct thing in all respects by not overtaking Max.



#33 PayasYouRace

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 14:58

It seems we're talking in most length about the mistake with the least impact of the whole race...

 

So what? It's actually an interesting mistake because it's something that doesn't happen very often. I know you don't like it when people dwell on Max's mistakes but it's an interesting talking point.



#34 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:03

What Lando said is irrelevant. He'd have got a penalty too. It's the leader who determines the pace. If Charles had overtaken Max, it wouldn't matter if he thought Max was going for the restart, he'd have still overtaken under yellow and got a penalty. The only thing to save him in that situation would be if Max had fully spun off, but he didn't. He had a moment and kept going. Charles did the correct thing in all respects by not overtaking Max.

 

Perez had a moment and kept going but still got overtaken by a couple of drivers behind the safety car. I think it is really debatable as to weather it would have been fair. The point about Lando is that he says he would have done it so we would have had all that drama of what actually happened instead of this whatif.

 

I think he would have been given a drive-through or a stop-and-go penalty for unnecessarily overtaking another car:

42.8 The race will be resumed behind the safety car when the green lights are illuminated and the safety car leaves the pit lane. Drivers must follow the safety car no more than ten car lengths apart.

42.9 Either of the penalties under Article 38.3(c ) or (d) will be imposed on any driver who, in the opinion of the stewards, unnecessarily overtook another car during the lap (or laps).

 

If that is how the stewards had ruled but it is in that grey zone where it could go either way.

 

In any event it means Max would have started in P2 which is a clear breach of 42.6 and that is unarguable.



#35 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:15

Perez had a moment and kept going but still got overtaken by a couple of drivers behind the safety car. I think it is really debatable as to weather it would have been fair. The point about Lando is that he says he would have done it so we would have had all that drama of what actually happened instead of this whatif.

 

 

If that is how the stewards had ruled but it is in that grey zone where it could go either way.

 

In any event it means Max would have started in P2 which is a clear breach of 42.6 and that is unarguable.

It's still not a slam dunk penalty for max, though.  If the stewards view it that Leclerc had overtaken inappropriately then leclerc would be penalised but Max wouldn't



#36 wingwalker

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:17

Going by what happened, I'd say Charles would have got a penalty for overtaking before the restart. Max had moment but I don't think it was enough for drivers behind to legally overtake him.


I don't think so. Some people here say he would have to floor it to have chance of overtaking Max, but from the outside angle it looked like he actually had to brake (or at least go off throttle) to avoid passing him. Continuing with the SC pace and going past a car in a middle of a spin (which turned out to be a half spin, but still was off track for a second) would hardly be any kind of offense. 



#37 TomNokoe

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:19

I am only posting this screen grab to show that Max was all four wheels off, momentarily, which may have opened up the rules in Leclerc's favour, because he could have argued this point "he was all four wheels off so I reacted" which would have been technically true. It would have been very difficult to prove that Leclerc's theoretical reaction was timed to the exact point when Max was or was not in the bounds of the race track.

 

All-four-wheels.png

 

It would have put the FIA in an incredibly precarious position. I think if anyone was penalised, it would've been Leclerc.



#38 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:29

It's still not a slam dunk penalty for max, though.  If the stewards view it that Leclerc had overtaken inappropriately then leclerc would be penalised but Max wouldn't

Based on the Kimi penalty it is.

 

 

No / Driver: 7 - Kimi Raikkonen

Competitor: Alfa Romeo Racing ORLEN

Time: 16:27

Session: Race

Fact: Car 7 failed to enter the pit lane for the restart.

Offence: Breach of Article 42.6 FIA Formula One Sporting Regulations.

Decision: A ten second stop-and-go time penalty. As this was assessed after the race it is
converted to a 30 second time penalty in accordance with Art 38.3 of the FIA Formula
1 Sporting Regulations.

Reason: The Stewards heard from the driver of Car 7 (Kimi Raikkonen), and the team
representative and reviewed multiple angles of video evidence, telemetry and team
radio.

On the lap before the re-start following the race suspension, Raikkonen spun at Turn
3. Art 42.6 indicates that the driver may retake his position, so long as he does so
prior to the first safety car line (SC1). At first the team instructed him to do so, but
then told him to hold his position.

Art 42.6 then indicates that should a driver fail to take his position he must enter the
pit lane and can only re-join the race once the whole field has passed the pit exit.
Art 42.12 indicates that during a rolling start, once the safety car turns its lights out,
“No driver may overtake another car on the track until he passes the Line…” In this
case, the driver caught up to the cars ahead of him between Turn 13 and 14, but the
safety car turned its lights out at approximately Turn 10. This would appear to be a
contradictory instruction and the team instructed the driver to not regain his position,
fearing that this would create a safety issue in the wet conditions. They radioed the
Race Director, but there was no time for a response between their call and the
restart.

The Stewards consider it to be a further contradiction that when the cars are behind
the safety car during a safety car period, the are prohibited from passing, but when
they are behind the safety car for a restart, they are permitted to – even though the
reasons for a rolling start are that the track conditions don’t permit a standing start.
However, the rule requiring a car to enter the pit lane if it fails to regain its position is
consistent amongst several championships, has been in the FIA Formula One Sporting

Regulations for several years and has been consistently applied.

The penalty is a mandatory penalty, and therefore the Stewards consider that they
have no alternative than to apply this penalty for reasons of consistency.

Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the
Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and
Article 10.1.1 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time
limits.


Edited by Timorous, 19 April 2021 - 15:30.


#39 Nemo1965

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:32

Like I posted in the thread about Lewis saving his race... imagine any driver leading a race in the rain... he spins, perhaps even does a 720, gets his nose pointing in the right direction... and goes on. It seems the rules (or some poster's reading of it), would then allow the following car to speed past the spinning car... because he is obviously in trouble (or whatever the FIA-wording for it, means).

 

In my perception, Max was pacing the pack, picked an interesting method (this is a joke!) to slow down... and proceeded. If LeClerc could have overtaken him within the rules, then the rules are crazy... 



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#40 Gareth

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:33

The incident does show the regs are a bit of a mess here.

 

42.6 says that the only overtaking allowed is if drivers are slow away from the pit/grid when the SC sets off. It doesn't even contemplate the situation of someone having an issue behind the SC during the lap(s) behind it, or once its lights are out (unlike the SC rules, which do cover the situation).

 

So if you look at 42.6 strictly, even if Verstappen's car had broken down, everyone would have had to have stopped and sat behind him - because there's no overtaking unless you're slow away from the line ...

I would imagine the stewards would have considered overtaking to mean not passing a car that wasn't in trouble. Then the fun would have been "was Max in enough trouble to mean passing him wasn't an overtake?". I guess the fact he still had some tyres on the track may have saved him (which would have been ironic after Bahrain)*.

 

FWIW, in LeClerc's position I would have gunned the throttle and ... also lost the rear end of the car, no doubt ... but seriously my reaction was surprise that LeClerc didn't go past. I expected him to.

 

Anyhow, I reckon they should marry up the start under SC and general SC regs together better.

 

*EDIT: thanks for the grab Tom - guess I remembered that bit wrong. IMO would have been absolutely fine for Charles to overtake given Max was all 4 wheels off at one point.



#41 Timorous

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:36

Like I posted in the thread about Lewis saving his race... imagine any driver leading a race in the rain... he spins, perhaps even does a 720, gets his nose pointing in the right direction... and goes on. It seems the rules (or some poster's reading of it), would then allow the following car to speed past the spinning car... because he is obviously in trouble (or whatever the FIA-wording for it, means).

 

In my perception, Max was pacing the pack, picked an interesting method (this is a joke!) to slow down... and proceeded. If LeClerc could have overtaken him within the rules, then the rules are crazy... 

 

This is F1. Crazy rules are part of the spectacle.

 

The incident does show the regs are a bit of a mess here.

 

42.6 says that the only overtaking allowed is if drivers are slow away from the pit/grid when the SC sets off. It doesn't even contemplate the situation of someone having an issue behind the SC during the lap(s) behind it, or once its lights are out (unlike the SC rules, which do cover the situation).

 

So if you look at 42.6 strictly, even if Verstappen's car had broken down, everyone would have had to have stopped and sat behind him - because there's no overtaking unless you're slow away from the line ...

I would imagine the stewards would have considered overtaking to mean not passing a car that wasn't in trouble. Then the fun would have been "was Max in enough trouble to mean passing him wasn't an overtake?". I guess the fact he still had some tyres on the track may have saved him (which would have been ironic after Bahrain)*.

 

FWIW, in LeClerc's position I would have gunned the throttle and ... also lost the rear end of the car, no doubt ... but seriously my reaction was surprise that LeClerc didn't go past. I expected him to.

 

Anyhow, I reckon they should marry up the start under SC and general SC regs together better.

 

*EDIT: thanks for the grab Tom - guess I remembered that bit wrong. IMO would have been absolutely fine for Charles to overtake given Max was all 4 wheels off at one point.

I think the wording of the rules is vague and hopefully they look at this, see the potential for controversy and tighten it up. The drama had Charles gone for it, whatever the ensuing penalties, would have been glorious.



#42 Nemo1965

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:39

 

*EDIT: thanks for the grab Tom - guess I remembered that bit wrong. IMO would have been absolutely fine for Charles to overtake given Max was all 4 wheels off at one point.

 

But DO the rules say anything about that you can overtake when the car in front of you is off the road? Mmm. Imagine, behind the SC, someone chooses to run wide to the LEFT in the Aqua Minerale... or like in Mexico, in the stadium, take the outside of the corner, with mucho room. For clarity, the driver in question then does not overtake anyone, he holds his position... he just changes the line by driving off-track. That is allowed behind the SC, you can't even get track-limit penalties behind the SC, right?

 

But other drivers could then... overtake? Weird, if true. 


Edited by Nemo1965, 19 April 2021 - 15:40.


#43 Bliman

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:40

LeClerc could have done it but he wisely chose not to.

Max was very lucky there. He also showed again how insane his recovery skills are. So he was lucky but he also used his skills to prevent the worst from happening.

If he had spun completely his race would have been over.



#44 Clatter

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:47

I don't think there was any chance he could have overtaken. If Verstappen actually had all 4 wheels off it was for a fraction of a second. Leclerc was still on the bend and if he had gunned it could well have spun himself.

#45 Gareth

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:48

But DO the rules say anything about that you can overtake when the car in front of you is off the road?

Restart rules say you can only overtake if someone is slow away from the line. So no, you can't overtake once a car has left the line. Even if the car's engine explodes dramatically. Which can't be right, so I'm sure there'd be some other interpretation given.

 

I think the "usual" SC approach would be taken - which has wording in the rules to say you can overtake if a car slows with an obvious problem. I think Max slowed, and had an obvious problem, given he'd half spun and taken himself fully off the track.

 

I also think this is all highly vague speculation on my part, and there's a very good chance the stewards would have taken an entirely different approach.



#46 ANF

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:50

The incident does show the regs are a bit of a mess here.
 
42.6 says that the only overtaking allowed is if drivers are slow away from the pit/grid when the SC sets off. It doesn't even contemplate the situation of someone having an issue behind the SC during the lap(s) behind it, or once its lights are out (unlike the SC rules, which do cover the situation).

Hmm, yes it does:

42.6 Overtaking behind the safety car is only permitted in the following cases:
a) Any driver who is delayed when leaving his position in the fast lane or during the lap(s) behind the safety car may overtake to re-establish his original starting position provided he does so before he crosses the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.



#47 P123

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:52

Did this drift now finally convince some people it is not only sheer luck that Verstappen can sort a control the car at insane yaw angels?

He needs to do some proper rallying.



#48 shure

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:52

Based on the Kimi penalty it is.

no, it isn't.  Kimi's was completely different.  He spun 360, went completely off the track by some 5m at least and came to a halt and  had to wait to judge when it was safe to rejoin.  Max had a wobble and basically cut a corner.  The two aren't anywhere near the same



#49 Gareth

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:54

Hmm, yes it does:

42.6 Overtaking behind the safety car is only permitted in the following cases:
a) Any driver who is delayed when leaving his position in the fast lane or during the lap(s) behind the safety car may overtake to re-establish his original starting position provided he does so before he crosses the first safety car line on the lap the safety car returns to the pits.

Bloody hell, that's an impressive miss on my part!

 

Sorry, ignore much of my stuff above. Thanks loads for the correction!



#50 P123

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Posted 19 April 2021 - 15:58

But DO the rules say anything about that you can overtake when the car in front of you is off the road? Mmm. Imagine, behind the SC, someone chooses to run wide to the LEFT in the Aqua Minerale... or like in Mexico, in the stadium, take the outside of the corner, with mucho room. For clarity, the driver in question then does not overtake anyone, he holds his position... he just changes the line by driving off-track. That is allowed behind the SC, you can't even get track-limit penalties behind the SC, right?

 

But other drivers could then... overtake? Weird, if true. 

Common sense would say you can pass if another driver goes off or spins.  JPM spun under the SC in Oz many years back and lost positions.  Trulli went off in Oz under SC and was passed.  DC fluffed the penultimate corner in OZ under SC restart and was passed by Schumacher and Montoya.  The field can't come to a halt whilst anotehr driver sorts themselves out.  We saw that with Perez in the race, where he wrongly retook position.