498 replies to this topic

[Imateria]

My thoughts immediately go to the IRL and its all oval calendar, eventually moving to a more conventional calendar as things played out.

As memory serves the loss of a lot of the ovals was largely driven by dwindeling crowds, not a problem for FE before the pandemic with it's street tracks.

[thegamer23]

Good race, the cleanest ever in Formula E i'd say, with some good battles all around & some interesting slipstreaming strategies in the opening act. 

 

I think having two or three of these smaller traditional circuits on the calendar isn't a bad thing at all: who doesn't like variety?

Cars handled it well today with ideal weather conditions, with zero interruptions.

Looking forward to Puebla even more now.

 

Finally some redemption for Dennis, after a very difficult start of the season.
The kid fought against the likes of Leclerc & Verstappen in the junior formulas, he's got the talent.
 

On the other hand, Gunther seems completely lost this year, with mistakes & bad quali sessions. 

 

Rene Rast may be the dark horse for the championship: sitting in like P6 in the standings, he's gathering quite some points. 

Rookie Mistake there by Vandoorne: completely thrown away a solid point scoring finish.

Da Costa's 0 points streak continues.

 

 

In two weeks time, it's Monaco Time! 

 

Edited by thegamer23, 25 April 2021 - 13:37.

[Ben1445]

As memory serves the loss of a lot of the ovals was largely driven by dwindeling crowds, not a problem for FE before the pandemic with it's street tracks.

I think in FE's case the need will come from increasing car pace and the need for higher quality street tracks. They've got away with building a calendar full of them because they require minimal groundworks or dedicated infrastructure.

 

If they start shifting from Grade 3/3E street tracks towards Grade 2/2E then I think supplementing the calendar with some permanent Grade 2s becomes more of a necessity. 

[OvDrone]

Overall the 2nd race left a much better taste in my mouth leaving Valencia.

 

Jake Dennis is a good dude and good driver and it's cool to see him win. And some karmic redemption points for Lotterer is giving me hope.

 

Now Monaco, that's what I am most eager for.

[Muppetmad]

Nato's punt into Lynn was very unfortunate, as it deprived of us what would have been a very exciting finish, I think. Nevertheless, I enjoyed the race, and Dennis delivered when it mattered. I must admit, I wasn't sure he could do it, so well done to him   Vandoorne should have been smarter, although I can see why he was eager to move forward.

 

I'd be happy to see the series return here, but I hope they opt for a normal layout hereafter. It'd help to avoid some of the clumsiness we saw.

[Imateria]

I think in FE's case the need will come from increasing car pace and the need for higher quality street tracks. They've got away with building a calendar full of them because they require minimal groundworks or dedicated infrastructure.

 

If they start shifting from Grade 3/3E street tracks towards Grade 2/2E then I think supplementing the calendar with some permanent Grade 2s becomes more of a necessity. 

Personally I think they're likely to push towards adapting existing street circuits to accomidate the higher speeds first before moving more towards permenant circuits. Rome, for instance, is a really good track that only really needs a change to the silly chicane. And I fully expect the Monaco EPrix to be much better than the Monaco GP.

[Muppetmad]

This title battle is truly wide open, and I really wouldn't want to call it right now. On pace alone across the different events, Vandoorne and de Vries have consistently been up there, but who knows how things will look in the coming races?

[SenorSjon]

Could FE have run here without the 2 silly chicanes?

[SenorSjon]

This title battle is truly wide open, and I really wouldn't want to call it right now. On pace alone across the different events, Vandoorne and de Vries have consistently been up there, but who knows how things will look in the coming races?

Frijns dropped 4-5 places in 2 phases in the race. Did he have car troubles again?

[Clrnc]

Could FE have run here without the 2 silly chicanes?

I feel it would have been really really good. 

[ezequiel]

Frijns dropped 4-5 places in 2 phases in the race. Did he have car troubles again?

I think energy management seems to be a problem for him and/or the Audi powertrain (and/or the way Virgin Racing is working with it)

[SenorSjon]

I think energy management seems to be a problem for him and/or the Audi powertrain (and/or the way Virgin Racing is working with it)

It was early and mid race twice, suddenly dropping 4-5 places. Or he got mugged at the chicanes.

[f1paul]

A much-needed cleaner race.

 

Super drive from Dennis, he and BMW haven't shown anything all season but he produced one of the best FE drives I've seen. Flawless stuff for a rookie too.

[thegamer23]

Edited by thegamer23, 25 April 2021 - 18:17.

[BRG]

Well, that was night and day, wasn't it?

 

Race 1:  total shambles - drivers - or at least Lotterer - out of order, not sure if the teams or the race direction, or both, knew what they were doing.  Best forgotten.

 

Race 2:  very clean, everybody mostly behaving themselves, strategists cocking up so that we had a  lights to flag win despite all the predictions.  Dare I say a bit boring?

 

Track: Good in parts.  The 'cut-through' was unnecessarily brutal - couldn't they put in a radiused turn rather than that?  Or just not bothered with it?  It caused less chaos than I expected but still a  bit rubbish.  the chicane looked horrible but worked OK, so if they MUST have it...  In general, FE works well on a tightish permanent track and they need to use more.  

 

Track Limits: a novelty for FE drivers but they rose to the challenge of getting all four wheels over the white line, even in the wet.

 

Penalties :  Arghhhh.  In both races, first alp and someone gets hit with a drive through for a 'technical infraction' .  What?  Can't you at least share with us a little?  Was it a minor power misuse. or had they fitted a 7 litre twin turbo engine? We will never know.  Oh, and how did da Costa 'misuse' attack mode?  

 

Power:  Just give them X amount of power and let them get on with it.  No SC deductions.  They can still only use 200kw.  What on earth is served by having half the field run out of useable power?  Madness.  If they have SC in F1, they don;t bring the cars in to siphon out 3 litres of fuel!

 

Can someone please tell FE that, just because F1 is a bit sh!t, they don't have to follow suit.

Edited by BRG, 25 April 2021 - 18:49.

[BCM]

I quite enjoyed the 2nd race. The first one was ruined by the SC rules. I agree with you BRG - I'd like to see the end of the offset rule under SC. As you say, if there's a safety car in F1 the teams actually benefit from it - and we all know that on some tracks the teams actually under-fuel their cars if there's a high chance of a safety car to save some mass.

 

I'd like to see them get rid of the attack mode malarky as well. Just let the drivers activate the extra power as many times as they want whenever they want within the race. That would add a lot to the strategy and it would also encourage more development on drivetrain effeciencies. Giving drivers the ability to choose when to use the extra power, would lead to situations like we used to see in the old turbo cars in F1 during the 80s - drivers would often get greedy with running too much boost during the race and run out of fuel. FE needs to get over the idea of running out of energy. "Old" formulas have had that problem forever.

 

Good drive by Dennis.

 

Biggest downside for me? The guy who does the post race interviews grates on me. They need someone better.

Edited by BCM, 26 April 2021 - 00:57.

[Rodaknee]

Could FE have run here without the 2 silly chicanes?

Silly chicanes are the very essence of FE.  Every circuit has one or two, so "Mr Casual Viewer" is guaranteed to see at least one car punted out of the race.

 

It's all for the show, you know.

[midgrid]

Chicanes are necessary because a lot of braking zones are needed for adequate energy regeneration.

[RSRally]

Could FE have run here without the 2 silly chicanes?

 

No. i think the second race showed very well why FE still needs to put in slow corners and chicanes for regen purposes. They were still pretty tight on energy at the end despite them, and with the drivers cruising the first part of the race too. Gen3 with front axle regen and pitstops may open up more possibilities.

[SenorSjon]

Chicanes are necessary because a lot of braking zones are needed for adequate energy regeneration.

They could up the power allowance? No one liked to fuel saving exercises in F1. The fuel usage graphs were gone within a couple of races.

[Alex79]

...

Penalties : Arghhhh. In both races, first alp and someone gets hit with a drive through for a 'technical infraction' . What? Can't you at least share with us a little? Was it a minor power misuse. or had they fitted a 7 litre twin turbo engine? We will never know. Oh, and how did da Costa 'misuse' attack mode?

By hitting the attack mode button while not in the zone OR missing the loop by turning in too sharp. He had to try three times afaik

[Stephane]

They could up the power allowance? No one liked to fuel saving exercises in F1. The fuel usage graphs were gone within a couple of races.

 

But that's the point of the series. Developp their PU so they have to lift less than the others.

 

If everyone can just go flat out, there's no point.

[Viryfan]

Formula E is getting slammed by its own broadcaster in France following this week-end.

 

https://www.lequipe....valence/1246407

[Ben1445]

They could up the power allowance? No one liked to fuel saving exercises in F1. The fuel usage graphs were gone within a couple of races.

 

That would lead to a higher energy delta per lap and a shorter race. And possibly more processional racing as well since braking distances would be much shorter. 

 

The fuel saving in F1 got caught up in a storm of anger over the V6Ts and what various factions loudly declared the sport's 'DNA' to be all about. The 'flat out or go home' crowd shouted the loudest and so it was that any reference to it was scrubbed. Fact remains that fuel management and lift-and-coast have always been a key part of motorsport - including in F1. 

 

But that's the point of the series. Developp their PU so they have to lift less than the others.

 

If everyone can just go flat out, there's no point.

 

Come Gen3 we should also see management of the battery condition come into even bigger importance as the whole point of Gen3 is the fast-charging. If you can get the battery temperatures in an ideal place and do so quickly that should, in theory, give teams an advantage no the pit-stops in being able to accept faster rates of charge and have more flexibility in the race over when they choose to make the stop. 

 

We don't know what the final rules package surrounding those stops will be - but in theory that's the kind of factors that should come into play. 

[RSRally]

I'd like to see them get rid of the attack mode malarky as well. Just let the drivers activate the extra power as many times as they want whenever they want within the race. That would add a lot to the strategy and it would also encourage more development on drivetrain effeciencies. Giving drivers the ability to choose when to use the extra power, would lead to situations like we used to see in the old turbo cars in F1 during the 80s - drivers would often get greedy with running too much boost during the race and run out of fuel. FE needs to get over the idea of running out of energy. "Old" formulas have had that problem forever.<

 

I don't have a problem with attack mode but I do agree with you that I'd like to see FE go in the direction you state above. Perhaps have it set up so it is possible for the cars to complete the race distance with no lift & cost or regen but doing so would enable you to build up some spare energy to use a higher power level when you needed to. The first half of Valencia Race2 was a bit too much of a cruise for my liking.

[Muppetmad]

I'd offer a translation of the article (because I like any excuse to practice my translating), but it's sadly behind a paywall. 

[JRodrigues]

I didn't follow the last couple of weekends but it seems Rast is being let down by his how qualifying position. He's making a lot of places during the races but needs to be up there since the beginning.

 

 

 

Rene Rast may be the dark horse for the championship: sitting in like P6 in the standings, he's gathering quite some points. 
 

 

[Scotracer]

Chicanes are necessary because a lot of braking zones are needed for adequate energy regeneration.

 

Electrically/chemically that doesn't make any sense. There's always more losses by converting the kinetic energy back in to electrical energy in the pack, and then back in to kinetic energy again (Speed ==> Regen ==> Speed). 

 

What is really happening is that if they allowed the front straight to be longer at Valencia, the cars would have been coasting for over half of it (because energy/power requirements go up with the square of speed, so they try to keep the average speed of the tracks down). And that would look silly (even more silly than they did on the weekend with their peloton-like drafting scenario). 

[thegamer23]

I didn't follow the last couple of weekends but it seems Rast is being let down by his how qualifying position. He's making a lot of places during the races but needs to be up there since the beginning.

 

Indeed, not a single Super Pole appearence so far this season.

It's a shame, beacause he's probably one of the best racers in the field, pulling off some amazing overtaking manouvers.

 

Like this

 

 

But he's title challenge is still on, he just needs to put together a clean weekend.

[Vielleicht]

Electrically/chemically that doesn't make any sense. There's always more losses by converting the kinetic energy back in to electrical energy in the pack, and then back in to kinetic energy again (Speed ==> Regen ==> Speed). 

 

What is really happening is that if they allowed the front straight to be longer at Valencia, the cars would have been coasting for over half of it (because energy/power requirements go up with the square of speed, so they try to keep the average speed of the tracks down). And that would look silly (even more silly than they did on the weekend with their peloton-like drafting scenario). 

I don't actually think there's anything at all silly about a peloton-like drafting scenario. The silly thing this weekend was that slipstream effect was too weak comapred to the pre-race expectation, something which worked out in Dennis' favour. Perhaps in that regard the chicanes were too effective at doing their job.

 

If letting them stretch their legs on larger circuits makes races more like a road/track cycling or high-speed oval racing then why not lean into it as a core feature of the sport? Close racing, break away groups, temporary teamwork, energy management, strategic calls... could be an exciting, winning formula.

 

I can't help but think that this is where EV racing could be going as time goes on. We really need more EV categories (professional and grassroots) to be out there experiementing with different formats and finding out what works the best.

Edited by Vielleicht, 26 April 2021 - 13:39.

[MattK9]

Electrically/chemically that doesn't make any sense. There's always more losses by converting the kinetic energy back in to electrical energy in the pack, and then back in to kinetic energy again (Speed ==> Regen ==> Speed). 

 

What is really happening is that if they allowed the front straight to be longer at Valencia, the cars would have been coasting for over half of it (because energy/power requirements go up with the square of speed, so they try to keep the average speed of the tracks down). And that would look silly (even more silly than they did on the weekend with their peloton-like drafting scenario). 

 

It only makes sense when you also account for FE being a timed race rather than a distance race.

 

If the chicane wasnt there then they would drive along the straight using 200 kW (if they didnt need to save energy). Because FE is a timed race rather than a distance/lap count race, time spent regenerating energy (i.e. braking for the chicane) means that they use less energy over the 45 min race time.

Edited by MattK9, 26 April 2021 - 14:20.

[BRG]

Chicanes are necessary because a lot of braking zones are needed for adequate energy regeneration.

As Scotracer says in #481, this is a fallacy that is so frequently trotted out by folk who haven't thought it through or don't understand basic physics.  Yes, you can regen in a braking zone but then you use it all - and more besides - accelerating back up to speed.  

 

By hitting the attack mode button while not in the zone OR missing the loop by turning in too sharp. He had to try three times afaik

You can be penalised for missing the AM loop?  That would be harsh even by FE's byzantine rulebook.  And surely the button wouldn't work if you hadn't activated AM?

[Ben1445]

You can be penalised for missing the AM loop?  That would be harsh even by FE's byzantine rulebook.  And surely the button wouldn't work if you hadn't activated AM?

They have (usually) five arming events for (usually) two actuations which you have to press before going over the loops. If you miss the loops repeatedly and run out of arming events I think that's a penalty?

 

(Though why missing the loops multiples times isn't penalty enough I'm not sure). 

 

I do think much of FE's approach to penalties is that they write them harshly to act as deterrents rather than being corrective/proportional. Which evidence in these threads quite clearly shows many people find to be both confusing and quite annoying when they get handed out. 

Edited by Ben1445, 26 April 2021 - 16:30.

[BRG]

They have (usually) five arming events for (usually) two actuations which you have to press before going over the loops. If you miss the loops repeatedly and run out of arming events I think that's a penalty?

Maybe the use of the word 'misuse' was a ....misusage?  If they simply meant that da Costa failed to activate AM twice as required, for whatever reason, then that would be OK. 

[MattK9]

As Scotracer says in #481, this is a fallacy that is so frequently trotted out by folk who haven't thought it through or don't understand basic physics.  Yes, you can regen in a braking zone but then you use it all - and more besides - accelerating back up to speed.  

 

This isnt true in a timed race

[balage06]

This isnt true in a timed race

 

I don't really get what you mean by that. I see no significant difference between a timed and a distance/lap race in the sense that you can always calculate one from the other.

[MattK9]

Well it takes considerably longer to brake and turn through a chicane than travelling the same distance in a straight however the distance travelled is approximately the same. This increases lap time, which in a timed race means less laps to complete the race, less distanced travelled.

 

Less laps means that they can consume more per lap.

[BRG]

That's as may be, but the fact remain that for a given chicane/corner if you regen x amount of energy braking for it, you will consume more than x accelerating away from it.  So inserting chicanes to help regen is a fallacy.

[RSRally]

That's as may be, but the fact remain that for a given chicane/corner if you regen x amount of energy braking for it, you will consume more than x accelerating away from it.  So inserting chicanes to help regen is a fallacy.

 

I’m not sure that applies to race cars, where you would generally remain on full throttle all the way down the straight? It’s not like a road car when you reach the speed limit and feather the throttle to maintain that speed.

[RSRally]

Just watched the short highlights on Youtube and it reminded me how close we came to disaster in the second race too.. Dennis was told to slow before the start/finish line in order to make sure it was the last lap. If that instruction hadn’t come many cars may have run out of energy in race 2 as well.

[Scotracer]

It only makes sense when you also account for FE being a timed race rather than a distance race.

If the chicane wasnt there then they would drive along the straight using 200 kW (if they didnt need to save energy). Because FE is a timed race rather than a distance/lap count race, time spent regenerating energy (i.e. braking for the chicane) means that they use less energy over the 45 min race time.

Which is covered by the average speed requirement I mentioned. The lower the average speed, the less energy they will use on average for a race. That's the main goal of the chicane, not specifically for regen. But nevertheless your analogy doesn't quite work as the cars would never go flat out for the full straight. If they HAD to use that circuit they would coast from about the finish line.

What documents are public for the designing of a Formula E circuit? Average speed will be one of them, just as they are for new F1 circuits.

[MattK9]

That's as may be, but the fact remain that for a given chicane/corner if you regen x amount of energy braking for it, you will consume more than x accelerating away from it. So inserting chicanes to help regen is a fallacy.

You are correct if the race was a fixed distance. Its not so in a timed race. Chicanes mean a slower average speed. Less laps. More energy to use per lap.

[MattK9]

Which is covered by the average speed requirement I mentioned. The lower the average speed, the less energy they will use on average for a race. That's the main goal of the chicane, not specifically for regen. But nevertheless your analogy doesn't quite work as the cars would never go flat out for the full straight. If they HAD to use that circuit they would coast from about the finish line.

What documents are public for the designing of a Formula E circuit? Average speed will be one of them, just as they are for new F1 circuits.

The point is they wont have to coast down the straights as much.

[balage06]

Btw, I was watcing the second race before the St. Pete IndyCar round and after finishing both of them, I still think Indy and DTM nailed the temporary boost thing. I felt that on a more open track like Valencia, the attack mode became a bit unnecessarily powerful, the overtakes felt much more like easy fly-bys. I think attack mode could be a much more interesting strategic element if they'd forget these activation zones and the drivers could decide when and how much boost they want to apply and it could be used both for attacking and defending. Sometimes it feels like organizers do not understand nowadays that a long lasting battle between two (relatively) equal opponents can often be much more thrilling than many random overtakes or even pure chaos. Well, at least in my case.

[Ben1445]

Just watched the short highlights on Youtube and it reminded me how close we came to disaster in the second race too.. Dennis was told to slow before the start/finish line in order to make sure it was the last lap. If that instruction hadn’t come many cars may have run out of energy in race 2 as well.

Same thing almost happened when Mitch Evans was battling Lotterer for the win in Rome back in 2019. Jaguar told him he needed to slow it down to ensure the lap he was on became the penultimate lap or they weren't going to make it. 

 

What happened on Saturday was not a feature of the circuit, it was firmly a feature of the timed races with the chances of it happened only multiplied by energy reduction rules. 

[BRG]

You are correct if the race was a fixed distance. Its not so in a timed race. Chicanes mean a slower average speed. Less laps. More energy to use per lap.

That's irrelevant.   I was talking about the concept that putting in a chicane helps to regenerate energy.  It doesn't and cannot.  If it did, FE will have finally invented the long sought for perpetual motion machine.  There will always be a net loss of energy available by the time the chicane has been negotiated and the car is back up to speed.  The number of laps or duration of the race has no bearing on this.

[MattK9]

That's irrelevant.   I was talking about the concept that putting in a chicane helps to regenerate energy.  It doesn't and cannot.  If it did, FE will have finally invented the long sought for perpetual motion machine.  There will always be a net loss of energy available by the time the chicane has been negotiated and the car is back up to speed.  The number of laps or duration of the race has no bearing on this.

 

I am not suggesting that they have a perpetual motion machine or that they are breaking the 1st law of thermodynamics.

 

I'm saying that the more braking zones that they have will create more regen which will help them get to the end of a timed race with less coasting down the straights.

[BRG]

I am not suggesting that they have a perpetual motion machine or that they are breaking the 1st law of thermodynamics.

 

I'm saying that the more braking zones that they have will create more regen which will help them get to the end of a timed race with less coasting down the straights.

How would that work, if they are gobbling up all the regenerated energy and more each time they get back up to speed?  They would  use less energy just doing the coasting. If they ran for 45 minutes plus one lap around an oval track, they would use massively less energy than round a typical FE track.

[MattK9]

How would that work, if they are gobbling up all the regenerated energy and more each time they get back up to speed?  They would  use less energy just doing the coasting. If they ran for 45 minutes plus one lap around an oval track, they would use massively less energy than round a typical FE track.

 

OK. Lets approach this from a different angle.

 

I'm going to ignore the energy reduction under SC, attack mode and the +1 lap at the end of the 45 mins for simplicity and because its not important to the point I am trying to explain.

 

FE races are 45 mins or 2700 seconds

FE Battery packs are 54 kWh or 194,400 kWs (that is kW-seconds, 54*3600=194400)

Therefore at 200 kW they have 972 seconds of full power available (194400/200=972)

That is 16 minutes and 12 seconds at full power. (assuming full power or off)

Now assuming that they regen some energy, lets say 25% of all energy spent (54*0.25=13.5 kWh)

13.5 kWh=48600 kWs=243 seconds= another 4 mins and 3 seconds of full power available

So that adds to 1215 seconds or 20 mins 15 seconds at full power (not accounting for any inefficiencies in the drive trains or battery packs and inverters)

 

If they only have 20 mins 15 sec full power available, which is less than half the race time, then they will have to spend the rest of the time going around corners, braking or coasting.

 

The more time they spend in silly little mickey mouse chicanes, the less time they will need to spend coasting down the straights. Therefore, because of the timed nature of the race, the chicanes and other tight corners help the drivers with energy management.