83 replies to this topic

[SophieB]

Would that be the same T4 that track limits didn’t apply to until Red Bull complained, if I recall? Kind of ironic, as since then track limits have become much more rigid in race control’s application.

As for fastest lap. Whilst I like the idea in principle, it’s a little worrying that practically an entire race worth of points are handed out. But it adds to the show, so overall, I don’t mind it at all, as it brings another tactical decision to take into equation on race day. Should be fun to see who gets the point in Spain.

It is an interesting side effect of the ever more bloated timetable, that’s for sure. 

[aeroscreen]

Yes the Bahrein notes say that in 21.2b 'In all cases during the race, Drivers are reminded of the provisions of Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations.'. So this means that art 27.3 still applied in Bahrein and if i am right Max's lap was cancelled in Portimao also under 27.3.

What did the director's notes from bahrein say? 

21.2 Race a) The track limits at the exit of Turn 4 will not be monitored with regard to setting a lap time, as the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location

 

Could it be clearer? 

 

https://www.fia.com/...version_2_0.pdf

Edited by aeroscreen, 02 May 2021 - 18:46.

[JeePee]

 

Could it be clearer? 

 

Ehh. Yes. A lot.

[speedyenrico]

What did the director's notes from bahrein said 

21.2 Race a) The track limits at the exit of Turn 4 will not be monitored with regard to setting a lap time, as the defining limits are the artificial grass and the gravel trap in that location

 

Could it be clearer? 

 

https://www.fia.com/...version_2_0.pdf

 

I am not ignoring that piece but the event notes 21.2b says 27.3 is still in force (or is this than meaningless in your view??). So just wondering how VER could lose its lap under 27.3 and Bottas not (as said the Barhein notes say 27.3 is still in force). Let alone the fact that Bottas clearly gained a lasting advantage in Bahrein, after all he got 1 point (that would have gone to VER otherwise).

Edited by speedyenrico, 02 May 2021 - 18:37.

[GrzegorzChyla]

Rules should be consistent. Off-track means off-track.

If there are parts of circuit where it is difficult to respect tack limits, they should change track limits. Just paint a new white line slightly further from track center.

[ensign14]

I’m liking it more than I thought it would, it’s not so much a piece of cake as a cherry on the ice cream sundae and it provides some small interest at the end of races, like today.

But nobody ever sees it.  If someone's on a last lap flyer it's because they have a clear track.  So we're going to be focussing on something else.

 

And in Portugal it was interesting in the same way as the last Formula E race was interesting.  I.e. it's a Jeux Sans Frontières clown show.

[PayasYouRace]

But nobody ever sees it.  If someone's on a last lap flyer it's because they have a clear track.  So we're going to be focussing on something else.

 

And in Portugal it was interesting in the same way as the last Formula E race was interesting.  I.e. it's a Jeux Sans Frontières clown show.

 

Which FE do you mean? The last one at Valencia was a genuine good race.

[ensign14]

Whichever one it was that Nyck de Vries won for being ****.

[Claudius]

Max was off track so No issues here.
Just hoping the same rules will apply at every circuit.

[ARTGP]

Some of you are viewing this in a vacuum.  It has to be judged in the context of Valterri doing the exact same thing in Bahrain.  Why did Valterri keep his fast lap point in Bahrain? They set a precedent in Bahrain, and Max got screwed out of the point either today (or conversely, the one in Bahrain).  Valterri has two points when he should only have 1 of them, and Max the other. He benefited from track limits abuse by himself in Bahrain. And he benefited again when Max's lap was deleted today.  

Edited by ARTGP, 02 May 2021 - 19:39.

[jcbc3]

Or maybe the stewards have heard the howls of protest after Bahrain and decided to do what the torch bearing masses are clamoring for?

 

Only now, the masses are changing their tune because whataboutism.....

[ARTGP]

Or maybe the stewards have heard the howls of protest after Bahrain and decided to do what the torch bearing masses are clamoring for?

 

Only now, the masses are changing their tune because whataboutism.....

 

It's not whataboutism. It's consistency....I can't believe we are at the point where calling for consistency is called "whataboutism".  Would you prefer the race winner in Bahrain get 30 points, and the race winner in Imola get 10 points?

 

Atleast have the balls to go back and strip Valterri of his point in Bahrain if they supposedly heard the "torch bearing masses".

 

I really don't care which side of the rules they pick (fast laps allowed or not). But it should clearly be 1 point Valterri, 1 point Verstappen no matter which side of the regulation you prefer. Consistency is the only thing that matters.

Edited by ARTGP, 02 May 2021 - 19:44.

[aeroscreen]

I am not ignoring that piece but the event notes 21.2b says 27.3 is still in force (or is this than meaningless in your view??). So just wondering how VER could lose its lap under 27.3 and Bottas not (as said the Barhein notes say 27.3 is still in force). Let alone the fact that Bottas clearly gained a lasting advantage in Bahrein, after all he got 1 point (that would have gone to VER otherwise).

Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations

 

27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

 

I don't see anything there about time lap removing or anything close.

 

In any case, nothing it's said about 27.3 on the Stewart comunication

 

[LightningMcQueen]

Is that the same T4 in Bahrain where Red Bull were warned not to go off track after Max’ race engineer told Max to do it since Lewis had done it 29 times in the first half if the race, or a different T4 at Bahrain?

Max could have gone off 29 times if only he had bothered to read the drivers notes properly. It was permitted in the race until RBR highlighted it 👍🏻

[speedyenrico]

Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations

 

27.3 Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not deliberately leave the track without a justifiable reason. Drivers will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with it and, for the avoidance of doubt, any white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not. Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the race director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

 

I don't see anything there about time lap removing or anything close.

 

In any case, nothing it's said about 27.3 on the Stewart comunication

 

I read it as follows. The portimao event notes mention that for breaches of track limits in T1, T4, etc that your laptime is invalidated. For T14 infringements of track limits this is not mentioned specifically and 21.7 of the event notes even refer back to 27.3. In other words seems to me that VERs laptime was cancelled under 21.7 event notes in connection with 27.3 of the sporting regulations.  Also in Bahrein 27.3 of the sporting regulations applied notwithstanding the fact that track limits were not specifically monited for T4 (up to lap 30 or so...............)

[aeroscreen]

I read it as follows. The portimao event notes mention that for breaches of track limits in T1, T4, etc that your laptime is invalidated. For T14 infringements of track limits this is not mentioned specifically and 21.7 of the event notes even refer back to 27.3. In other words seems to me that VERs laptime was cancelled under 21.7 event notes in connection with 27.3 of the sporting regulations.  Also in Bahrein 27.3 of the sporting regulations applied notwithstanding the fact that track limits were not specifically monited for T4 (up to lap 30 or so...............)

Actually they do...

 

https://www.fia.com/...s_version_3.pdf

[Gareth]

As soon as RB stuck Max in, you knew then Lewis had a coast on the final laps- no burst tyre

Didn’t that happen after RB had put in a late stop ?

[speedyenrico]

Actually they do...

 

https://www.fia.com/...s_version_3.pdf

I might miss it but where do the event notes say that for exceeding T14 exit track limits your laptime gets deleted (see below copy)? For T1exit, T4exit and T15 exit it is specifically mentioned that the laptime is cancelled but i do not see the same language/ penalty for exit T14.

 

21.6 Turn 14 – Exit a) The track limits at the exit of Turn 14 are defined as when no part of the car remains in contact with the red and white kerb.

21.7 In the cases of 21.5 and 21.6 above the drivers are reminded of the provisions of Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations and specifically the following:

a) Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason.

b) Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

Edited by speedyenrico, 02 May 2021 - 20:18.

[thiscocks]

Just put grass beyond the curbs PLEASE. Ofcourse they won't as they will have pathetic stewards jobs roles to fill.

[Paco]

Not sure how this is even a question....

 

Gained a huge advantage by GETTING a championship point on a monitored corner.

[speedyenrico]

Not sure how this is even a question....

 

Gained a huge advantage by GETTING a championship point on a monitored corner.

Agee for me it is the inconsistency In enforcement that is bothering

[aeroscreen]

I might miss it but where do the event notes say that for exceeding T14 exit track limits your laptime gets deleted (see below copy)? For T1exit, T4exit and T15 exit it is specifically mentioned that the laptime is cancelled but i do not see the same language/ penalty for exit T14.

 

21.6 Turn 14 – Exit a) The track limits at the exit of Turn 14 are defined as when no part of the car remains in contact with the red and white kerb.

21.7 In the cases of 21.5 and 21.6 above the drivers are reminded of the provisions of Article 27.3 of the Sporting Regulations and specifically the following:

a) Drivers must make every reasonable effort to use the track at all times and may not leave the track without a justifiable reason.

b) Should a car leave the track the driver may re-join, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any lasting advantage. At the absolute discretion of the Race Director a driver may be given the opportunity to give back the whole of any advantage he gained by leaving the track.

 

21) Track Limits

21.1 Turn 1 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track and cutting behind the red and white kerb on the exit of Turn 1, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.

21.2 Turn 4 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track and cutting behind the red and white kerb on the exit of Turn 4, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.

21.3 Turn 15 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track on the exit of Turn 15, will result in that lap time and the immediately following lap time being invalidated by the stewards. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

 

I don't know but for me it's pretty obvious that the same rules apply to turn 5 or turn 14, even more when a Gasly's lap was removed on Saturday for the same reason.

https://www.fia.com/...mes_turn_14.pdf

[speedyenrico]

 

21) Track Limits

21.1 Turn 1 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track and cutting behind the red and white kerb on the exit of Turn 1, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.

21.2 Turn 4 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track and cutting behind the red and white kerb on the exit of Turn 4, will result in that lap time being invalidated by the stewards.

21.3 Turn 15 - Exit a) A lap time achieved during any practice session or the race by leaving the track on the exit of Turn 15, will result in that lap time and the immediately following lap time being invalidated by the stewards. A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

 

I don't know but for me it's pretty obvious that the same rules apply to turn 5 or turn 14, even more when a Gasly's lap was removed on Saturday for the same reason.

https://www.fia.com/...mes_turn_14.pdf

 

Fair enough But for me it is less clear though. I do not understand that if they want this to be the consequence why they are not writing It down As opposed to making a reference to 27.3. 
 

and just to be clear I believe they did the Right thing to delete VERs laptime but really Cannot see the difference with bottas in bahrein

Edited by speedyenrico, 02 May 2021 - 20:58.

[Paco]

Agee for me it is the inconsistency In enforcement that is bothering

 

For me, there has not been much inconsistency.  The media is making far more of an issue of it.

 

Pre-race corners are clarified.

 

Drivers need to understand if you go out there.. its on you what ends up happening especially if you gain a significant part from it. 

 

Early on in the race, Tsunoda was warned very very quickly to stop abusing track limits.

 

As much I detest Masi, he post race Notes were 100% bang on.  Anyone fighting in or around the top 10 needs to be careful in the race of it.  In quali, EVERYONE needs to be careful around it.  Any fastest lap needs 100% monitoring in the same way quali.

 

Why is that unreasonable?  Why is that tough to understand for media and fans.  There should be leeway when you are out alone but if you can a huge advantage on a particular lap.. expect a negative out.  If you keep going out there and someone complain (ie RB to Lewis last race) then get a warning..

 

Seems the most sensible approach like was done this race and even last.

Edited by Paco, 02 May 2021 - 20:54.

[ThadGreen]

Imagine Verstappen loses the title by the one point that he lost for being slightly off track on one corner of one lap.

 

This whole FL thing is bulldink.  Just get rid of it.  Why should something that's a piece of cake for a slow Mercedes on sticky tyres be worth as much as a hard struggle for 10th?

 

It would seem that you are making an argument for more points for the fastest lap because for me, finishing 10 out of 20 hardly seems justified in earning a point..  

 

I don't mind the fastest lap point, it can, like today add a little excitement /strategy/randomness to the end of the race.

[midgrid]

I've disliked the point-for-fastest lap rule ever since it was introduced, and the fact that it's now getting tangled up in the bureaucratic nightmare of track limits is the icing on the cake.

I don't have any issue per se with the fastest lap being rewarded, and it works in categories such as F2, F3 and BTCC, as the field spread is too small and/or the races too small for a driver to pit with the sole aim of "refreshing the car" for the fastest lap attempt.

In F1, the speed differentials between the different cars and the length of the races mean that, all too often, the point is a reward for the slowest of the lead runners and for deliberately completing the race at a slower-than optimal average speed. The only way to resolve this would be by introducing additional complications to the rules, such as disqualifying anyone who makes more pitstops than the median, or who pits within X% of the end of the race, from the bonus point, so I'd prefer simply to get rid of it. If retained, my only hope is that the new technical regulations produce a tighter field in 2022, so no-one can benefit from a free stop late in the race.

[teejay]

Don't even know why anyone would suggest other than no. 

[P123]

Just put grass beyond the curbs PLEASE. Ofcourse they won't as they will have pathetic stewards jobs roles to fill.

 

Are the kerbs not wide and flat these days so tracks can also be used for motorcycles?  Granted, all that concrete and grasscrete beyond the kerbs does seem ridiculous.

[P123]

Didn’t that happen after RB had put in a late stop ?

 

Indeed, and imagine they got skewered buy similar again... giving up all hope in order to gain 1 point instead of 7!

[as65p]

I've disliked the point-for-fastest lap rule ever since it was introduced, and the fact that it's now getting tangled up in the bureaucratic nightmare of track limits is the icing on the cake.

I don't have any issue per se with the fastest lap being rewarded, and it works in categories such as F2, F3 and BTCC, as the field spread is too small and/or the races too small for a driver to pit with the sole aim of "refreshing the car" for the fastest lap attempt.

In F1, the speed differentials between the different cars and the length of the races mean that, all too often, the point is a reward for the slowest of the lead runners and for deliberately completing the race at a slower-than optimal average speed. The only way to resolve this would be by introducing additional complications to the rules, such as disqualifying anyone who makes more pitstops than the median, or who pits within X% of the end of the race, from the bonus point, so I'd prefer simply to get rid of it. If retained, my only hope is that the new technical regulations produce a tighter field in 2022, so no-one can benefit from a free stop late in the race.

This. And, even if I'm not that much into stats, I detest that it makes a mockery of certain ones. Looks on paper like Hamilton today put 30 secs on his closest rival at the finish. Well, we all know he didn't. At least not in the same sense JYS won by over 4 minutes at the Nürburgring in '68.

[Anderis]

Just imagine if we actually had tracks that are designed in a way it's practically impossible to gain advantage through ignoring track limits.

[ARTGP]

Don't even know why anyone would suggest other than no. 

 

It's only brought up because it's a matter of consistency with Bottas in Bahrain.

 

It may be wrong in general to do a fast lap outside the track limits, but then police it that way consistently. Otherwise you are jeopardizing the integrity of the championship.

 

We don't randomly decide that Max gets 10 points for his win in Imola, and Lewis gets 30 points for his win in Portugal. So we shouldn't randomly police track limits on a fast lap either.

 

Personally I don't care which side people favor (allow the lap, or dissallow it). All I care is that it's applied consistently. So Bottas should now be stripped of his fast lap point in Bahrain. But that isn't going to happen. The integrity of the championship is breeched, yet again. Bottas has a point that he should not have.

Edited by ARTGP, 02 May 2021 - 23:37.

[HP]

Imagine Verstappen loses the title by the one point that he lost for being slightly off track on one corner of one lap.

 

This whole FL thing is bulldink.  Just get rid of it.  Why should something that's a piece of cake for a slow Mercedes on sticky tyres be worth as much as a hard struggle for 10th?

Some (not me): Think about show, added value.

 

For myself I noticing a pattern, when the leading teams and specifically the championship leader care about FL.  There's always some risk management involved.

[tourister46a]

To answer the poll question, a clear NO. The boundaries for Turn 14 are explicitly mentioned in the pre-race notes, and there shouldn't be complaints when you go beyond them to set a point-winning time.