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Hydrogen powered ICE in motorsport


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#1 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:48

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:13.


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#2 Ben1445

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:55

Not the 24H Le Mans, but the 24 Hours of Fuji. 



#3 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 12:04

Not the 24H Le Mans, but the 24 Hours of Fuji. 

 

Oh sorry I read somewhere else LM. Edited.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 12:05.


#4 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 12:40

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl: 



#5 pdac

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 15:50

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl:

 

Well, the OP does mention 'hydro' power (as in water) and not 'hydrogen' power (as in that element that generates water)



#6 ch103

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:19

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydro powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

really really cool but is the engine lubricated with oil?



#7 Garndell

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:30

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl:

 

Seeing Hydro & ICE does make one wonder if the fuel is solid when they fuel it up. :stoned:



#8 Pete_f1

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:34

Oh, I thought a hosepipe from a tap would be needed!

#9 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:23

Hydrogen is result of splitting H20 into hydrogen and oxygen right? So defacto Water => Hydrogen => Fuel for ICE - I think only ones who did not want to know did not know what I meant :p The ICE as in Internal Combustion Engine not water in solid states, otherways one could say Ice => Hydrogen => Fuel for ICE. :D

 

Anyway, does it not give you hope? 1.6 3 cylinder GR Yaris engine powered by hydrogen available to buy in 2030 when there is a ban on Petrol Cars? 


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:34.


#10 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:25

Oh, I thought a hosepipe from a tap would be needed!

 

No you can just spit into the tube :p



#11 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:26

really really cool but is the engine lubricated with oil?

 

As far as I am concerned - it is.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:28.


#12 Pingguest

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 07:49

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

 

Internal combustion engines are not emission-free, as they produce oxides of nitroge. However, hydrogen - just like so-called e-fuels - might help reducing emissions coming from the current fleet.



#13 ARTGP

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:13

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

 

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

 

Hydrogen combustion might stand a chance for a longer time in something massive like marine transport however. A hydrogen fuel for container ships would be much more environmentally friendly than diesel fuel.


Edited by ARTGP, 05 May 2021 - 08:19.


#14 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:54

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

Hydrogen combustion might stand a chance for a longer time in something massive like marine transport however. A hydrogen fuel for container ships would be much more environmentally friendly than diesel fuel.


'Barbaric' - that is excelent summary of ICE, and exactly barbaric element is something that has appeal to myself as a driver and as a motorsport fan. I am not hoping hydrogen can save passanger transport, but I rather hope it will circumvent the ban on Petrol powered cars, not for the masses but for petrolheads for use as a hobby and also as a form of motorsport. In other words way to be green and barbaric at the same time :D

In terms of emission of NOx, I (possibly wrongly) read Hydrogen powered engine is still much less then petrol version of same ICE model? Is that correct?

#15 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:57

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

 

What forms motor sport takes in the future is going to be determined in a large part by what gets crowds going and what kind of cars people will go out of their way to see. Open question there I think.



#16 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:16

I really don't think motorsport's health is at risk simply because of a powertrain choice supposedly not 'getting crowds going'. 

 

Sport is a human endeavour and our interest is tied to relatable stories. A relatable story for many will be the push towards a cleaner technological future as much as it will be hanging on to that ICE heritage for others. We have to recognise those two sides of the same coin. 

 

I don't believe ICE racing is about to die suddenly in the year 2030, just the same as I don't believe electric motorsport is a fool's errand. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 May 2021 - 09:18.


#17 Pingguest

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:28

'Barbaric' - that is excelent summary of ICE, and exactly barbaric element is something that has appeal to myself as a driver and as a motorsport fan. I am not hoping hydrogen can save passanger transport, but I rather hope it will circumvent the ban on Petrol powered cars, not for the masses but for petrolheads for use as a hobby and also as a form of motorsport. In other words way to be green and barbaric at the same time :D

In terms of emission of NOx, I (possibly wrongly) read Hydrogen powered engine is still much less then petrol version of same ICE model? Is that correct?

 

An internal combustion engine running on hydrogen is indeed a lot cleaner than one running on petrol or diesel.



#18 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:34

Interesting thing to watch out for with this car in the 24 Hours of Fuji will be the stint length and refilling time.

 

It's a shame that it seems we won't have a comparable hydrogen fuel cell car racing against it. Maybe one day. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 May 2021 - 09:35.


#19 JHSingo

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 11:06

I'll freely admit that I'm not too technically-inclined when it comes to this sort of thing. The feasibility and practicality of making something like this work I'll leave to those more knowledgeable. However...this does seem quite significant.  

 

I think it is an inescapable fact that the lack of engine noise from electric cars, particularly in a motorsport environment, is still a big issue for quite a few people. Particularly if more and more championships start making the switch to electric power in the next few years, I can see it becoming more and more of a talking point. We saw the reaction F1's switch to V6Ts got - well, say if NASCAR or some other series went electric, the response would surely be even worse than that. It's something that's going to become an increasing problem - how series can ensure their survival and remain relevant, whilst also not switching off a large percentage of their traditional fans. 

 

So, if there was a way to retain some engine noise, whilst also ensuring the engines are much cleaner/environmentally friendly - as would appear to be the case here - then surely that's the best of both worlds. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on how this develops. 



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#20 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 13:48

I'll freely admit that I'm not too technically-inclined when it comes to this sort of thing. The feasibility and practicality of making something like this work I'll leave to those more knowledgeable. However...this does seem quite significant.  

 

I think it is an inescapable fact that the lack of engine noise from electric cars, particularly in a motorsport environment, is still a big issue for quite a few people. Particularly if more and more championships start making the switch to electric power in the next few years, I can see it becoming more and more of a talking point. We saw the reaction F1's switch to V6Ts got - well, say if NASCAR or some other series went electric, the response would surely be even worse than that. It's something that's going to become an increasing problem - how series can ensure their survival and remain relevant, whilst also not switching off a large percentage of their traditional fans. 

 

So, if there was a way to retain some engine noise, whilst also ensuring the engines are much cleaner/environmentally friendly - as would appear to be the case here - then surely that's the best of both worlds. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on how this develops. 

On combustion, as I said, I think there's going to be enough people who will relate to and engage with the 'traditional' way of going racing for a while yet. It won't completely disappear so long as it's not outright banned, and to get to that point it would probably need the general public opinion of combustion motor racing to fall as low as that of bloodsports - which if it can exploit some of the 'carbon neutral' technologies like hydrogen combustion or 'sustainable fuels' doesn't seem so likely. For example, Formula One knows that it will have to rely on combustion to do the kind of racing that its fans know and love and so has started their sustainable fuels plan to try and avoid popular opinion turning against them. That has to be seen as a positive development for the sport. 

 

About noise...I've said it before that we rarely hear perspectives from outside the traditional fanbase. We shouldn't let survivorship bias creep into this debate around noise if we're to understand the real impacts; how many people don't watch the traditional combustion sport because of the noise who are already (or could be game for) watching electric racing... and who's input, almost by definition, so rarely features in these discussions or in fan surveys. 

 

Ultimately, I think it's a logical fallacy for anyone to use the opinions from exclusively within the existing fanbase to suggest (directly or indirectly) that motorsport only has the popularity it has because of the noise and that the sport will fundamentally struggle to survive without it. I simply cannot accept the assumption that more purely electric racing series in the mix is going to be a problem for the sport's ultimate survival based on both reason and experience. Conversely, and certainly in the near term, I rather more see it as an opportunity to bring more numerous and diverse fans into the sport we love. 

 

Realistically, we're heading into an era in which both combustion and electric powertrain technologies will have to exist concurrently and in which sustainability is a common core focus. It's probably not the most constructive pathway for the sport to be at war with itself about that and become adversarial about which technology needs to 'win' an imagined battle for the soul of the sport.  


Edited by Ben1445, 06 May 2021 - 07:31.


#21 Ben1445

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Posted 24 May 2021 - 10:24

The Hydrogen Toyota Corolla in the ST-Q class finished the 24 Hours of Fuji.

 

https://www.motorspo...future/6514557/

 

Completed a total of 358 laps at an average speed of 67.963km/h (42.23 mph).

 

Absolute best lap pace was on par with ST-5 cars (1500cc or below). Leading ST-5 cars completed 631 laps, average speed of 119.96 km/h. 

 

Average stint length of a little over 10 laps led to 35 pitstops at 7 minutes refuelling time each stop - about 4 hours of refuelling time across the 24 hours. Some additional time lost to repair of an electrical issue.

 

Can't currently find any information on stint length for ST-5 cars. 

 

Bump up the refuelling rates and it might be reasonably feasible, but those same benefits will also transfer to a hydrogen fuel cell car where greater powertrain efficiencies should see it go further and/or faster on the same volume of hydrogen fuel.

 

Is this this last we see of hydrogen combustion in motorsport? I don't think so. This was a proof of concept not a fully optimised effort. Is it about to sweep the motorsport world as a silver bullet for all its perceived issues? Pretty affirmative no in my books. Will be interesting to follow developments in this field though. 

 

Full race results 


Edited by Ben1445, 24 May 2021 - 10:41.


#22 pdac

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Posted 24 May 2021 - 11:38

What forms motor sport takes in the future is going to be determined in a large part by what gets crowds going and what kind of cars people will go out of their way to see. Open question there I think.

 

Not entirely true. That will get you your local motorsport fests. But if you want the kind of money that mainstream motorsport burns up, then you're looking at something much more business oriented than simply what attracts people to the events.

 

But then again, maybe the future of motorsport is as a niche activity that attracts a niche crown and is funded by enthusiastic amateurs.



#23 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 08 June 2021 - 15:54

 

"Purposeful passion and action will create the future"

 

Akio Toyoda's take on the race. Interesting comments about carbon neutrality. It seems electrification is not the only way to achieve it. Toyoda seems to be rather passionate about the subject! Well done Sir big fan of yours!


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 11 June 2021 - 15:40.


#24 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 11 June 2021 - 15:38

Behind the scenes (aka future according to Toyota. OMG these people are visionary!!! )

 

"...to put it simply we just love engines."


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 11 June 2021 - 16:25.


#25 tpgF1

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 00:33

The other day I was thinking about a hybrid car with a hydrogen-fueled turbine that powered an electric generator which fed motor/generators on the drive train as well as charged the battery.



#26 dannyricsshoe

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 03:28

The other day I was thinking about a hybrid car with a hydrogen-fueled turbine that powered an electric generator which fed motor/generators on the drive train as well as charged the battery.

Please don't suggest this to F1. It's exactly the kind of complicated tech they'd love to implement ;)

#27 Ben1445

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 08:26

Behind the scenes (aka future according to Toyota. OMG these people are visionary!!! )

 

"...to put it simply we just love engines."

 

Something standing out to me from that is that, for Toyota, they see this as a way of protecting jobs. Which sounds very altruistic, but it's also a company where one of their industry leading assets is under threat. They will naturally want to do all they can to maximise that asset, and throwing it out without investigating all options for it wouldn't be in keeping with that. There's a strong element of risk management here, as well as an eye on future profits for the company. 

 

(I'm not exactly sure I'd describe that as visionary but that's me) 

 

It's also the case that Japan has made far more distinct and strides to develop into a hydrogen economy and done so earlier than other nations/regions. It therefore makes a lot of sense that Toyota is tapping into that wider strategy with this initiative as a means to see what they can do with the ICE in future. Having said that, the base technology is not new and unique since BMW were also looking into it in the mid 2000s and the racing of the technology isn't new either, since Aston Martin raced a Rapide S converted to hydrogen at the Nürburgring 24 Hours in 2013. Neither projects yielded anything in terms of serious commercial offerings, but the surrounding conditions have changed significantly since then so it's far from a foregone conclusion that history will repeat itself. 

 

Pretty cool that we got to see in that video where the hydrogen tanks were stored (6:24), which appear to be pretty beefy tanks taking up the entire back seat area. For a converted/prototype race car I don't think that's so much of an issue to be honest, but in this case it is an indication of both hydrogen's low volumetric energy density and a hydrogen combustion engine's low efficiency (20-25% compared to a fuel cell's ~60% are often quoted figures). You may be able to get 2-3 times more usable energy from the same amount of hydrogen by using a fuel cell, which is nothing to be sniffed at be it road or racetrack. 

 

I'll only make the briefest of mentions that ~95% of global hydrogen production is from fossil fuels and produces CO2 as a by-product. That's because I think 'green' hydrogen production is now a strategic priority around the world and ties itself in nicely with a default transition to renewable energy and a zero-carbon energy grid. This can and will change over the next decade or two. 

 

I honestly don't really disagree with Toyota at all in that broadening the options for zero-emissions is a good thing. What they're doing makes sense and, since developing hydrogen tanks and rapid refilling stations provides a common benefit to hydrogen fuel cells, racing/testing like this is by no means a waste of time even if the hydrogen ICE doesn't make it very far commercially. It's also hard to argue that having up to date research into what hydrogen fuelled ICEs are capable of is a bad thing - even having that in the back pocket in case it can be used as a solution somewhere at some time is a good thing to have in the face of a massive global transition to sustainability. 

 

I'd agree with Toyota's expectations that ICE hydrogen will more likely offer some level of choice for future cars rather than being a universal solution. My expectation, based on current indications, would be that (for those in the world with the luxury of having a choice) this would be a choice made by car enthusiasts with a specific love of combustion engines rather than the average person choosing their daily drive. How big that future market will be is a massive unknown.  



#28 NixxxoN

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 08:44

Damn... I hope this becomes viable one day. Massive batteries are a huge, expensive, heavy and unsustainable ballast.


Edited by NixxxoN, 12 June 2021 - 08:45.


#29 Ben1445

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 08:53

Damn... I hope this becomes viable one day. Massive batteries are a huge, expensive, heavy and unsustainable ballast.

Since 2010 we have seen battery cell energy densities roughly triple and the costs fall by a factor of ten.

#30 NixxxoN

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 09:01

Since 2010 we have seen battery cell energy densities roughly triple and the costs fall by a factor of ten.

 

It's not only about that.

Do we have enough lithium and extraction capacity for all the world?

Can this be done on heavy machinery, trucks and ships?

Highly doubt it

 

Also, costs having dropped and density having improved, doesn't mean it will keep like that much further. There are limits in everything


Edited by NixxxoN, 12 June 2021 - 09:02.


#31 Ben1445

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 09:36

It's not only about that.

You're not wrong. 

 

Do we have enough lithium and extraction capacity for all the world?

 

In theory, yes, there's loads of the stuff. There's newer, less impactful methods of extracting new lithium under development, as well as as yet untapped potential of recycling old batteries (including the lithium).

 

It's the kind of thing that needs to happen as much as developing renewable energy is to charge all the EVs or produce the hydrogen and/or synthetic fuels which other vehicles may run on. Every method needs a lot of work. 

 

Can this be done on heavy machinery, trucks and ships?

Highly doubt it. 

 

Does it need to? In a somewhat simplified sense, the only real requirement is that we do whatever we do sustainably (low impact) and with as little overall energy input (low cost) as is reasonably feasible for the application. If you can't run a large ship on battery power then you can't run a large ship on battery power... but that has little bearing on what we do with small passengers cars, for example. 

 

VW thinks that passenger cars will all be battery electirc, with heavy goods vehicles being bio/synth-fuel hybrids. GM thinks the same for cars but believes more in hydrogen fuel cells for heavy goods. 

 

Also, costs having dropped and density having improved, doesn't mean it will keep like that much further. There are limits in everything

 

Again, you're not wrong - and I'm definitely not suggesting that they will change by similar orders of magnitude over the next ten. What's relevant though is that the advances to date have brought the technology very close to the 'tipping point' at which mass market adoption for small passenger EVs can become feasible. Not inevitable, but feasible. 



#32 NixxxoN

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 09:43

You're not wrong. 

 

 

In theory, yes, there's loads of the stuff. There's newer, less impactful methods of extracting new lithium under development, as well as as yet untapped potential of recycling old batteries (including the lithium).

 

It's the kind of thing that needs to happen as much as developing renewable energy is to charge all the EVs or produce the hydrogen and/or synthetic fuels which other vehicles may run on. Every method needs a lot of work. 

 

 

Does it need to? In a somewhat simplified sense, the only real requirement is that we do whatever we do sustainably (low impact) and with as little overall energy input (low cost) as is reasonably feasible for the application. If you can't run a large ship on battery power then you can't run a large ship on battery power... but that has little bearing on what we do with small passengers cars, for example. 

 

VW thinks that passenger cars will all be battery electirc, with heavy goods vehicles being bio/synth-fuel hybrids. GM thinks the same for cars but believes more in hydrogen fuel cells for heavy goods. 

 

 

Again, you're not wrong - and I'm definitely not suggesting that they will change by similar orders of magnitude over the next ten. What's relevant though is that the advances to date have brought the technology very close to the 'tipping point' at which mass market adoption for small passenger EVs can become feasible. Not inevitable, but feasible. 

Okay, I'd like to be as optimistic as you, and in particular with heavy and large ships, that it's estimated that they contaminate as much as several million cars together...



#33 Ben1445

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Posted 12 June 2021 - 12:16

Shipping is a massive, separate problem in its own right. In all honestly it’s a bit of a travesty that it managed to evade more meaningful inclusion into various national and international emissions targets for so long.

But that’s beginning to change.

#34 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 09:35

Toyota is making progress, they have achieved horsepower parity between petrol and hydrogen engine. Their efforts has finally been picked up by motorsport media.

https://www.motorspo...suzuka/6671300/

#35 Sterzo

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 15:46

Shipping is a massive, separate problem in its own right.

Exactly. And one of the depressing features of discussions on tackling climate change, not specifically here but in general, is the amount of non-renewable energy consumed in "deflection" arguments. Talk about car-emissions and someone will say "what about ships," about EVs and "what about non-recyclable wind farms," about home heating and "what about flatulent cows."


Edited by Sterzo, 20 September 2021 - 15:46.


#36 AustinF1

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 16:15

Behind the scenes (aka future according to Toyota. OMG these people are visionary!!! )

 

"...to put it simply we just love engines."

Thanks so much for posting!

 

What the director talks about there - trying to open up multiple paths of research and development rather than focusing on just one that might not be the way to go - is something I've been talking about for years. Closing the door to other research avenues is pure folly, imho. I especially love the idea of being able to convert gas-powered ICE cars to hydrogen power later on. That's a massive benefit.



#37 Squeed

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 16:31

It's not only about that.

Do we have enough lithium and extraction capacity for all the world?

Can this be done on heavy machinery, trucks and ships?

Highly doubt it

 

Also, costs having dropped and density having improved, doesn't mean it will keep like that much further. There are limits in everything

 

In the Phoenix valley here in AZ, we already have a few hydrogen powered city busses and garbage trucks.  Not the heaviest of equipment, but heavy nonetheless. 


Edited by Squeed, 20 September 2021 - 16:31.


#38 Ben1445

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 17:32

What the director talks about there - trying to open up multiple paths of research and development rather than focusing on just one that might not be the way to go - is something I've been talking about for years. Closing the door to other research avenues is pure folly, imho. I especially love the idea of being able to convert gas-powered ICE cars to hydrogen power later on. That's a massive benefit.

I do not at all disagree that developing multiple paths is the way to go. I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that there's no silver bullet solution in decarbonisation and that diverse solutions on multiple fronts is what I think needs to happen... (also suggest seeing my post #27 in this thread for my more detailed thoughts on that video). 

 

I'm not particularly settled with the implication that doors are being closed to other research avenues - I just don't think that's the case when you look at the 'system' as a whole. Certain nations/groups are making bets or predictions on a certain technology, sure, but that's usually balanced out by someone else somewhere doing the opposite. Case in point, European nations/manufacturers seem more set on battery electrification and are making moves towards that, whilst Japan has been set on a distinctly hydrogen based economy including for vehicles. Hence a balance. 

 

If one solution really is significantly better than the others, that one will surely proliferate through into general use. 



#39 pdac

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 20:59

I do not at all disagree that developing multiple paths is the way to go. I think I've been pretty consistent in saying that there's no silver bullet solution in decarbonisation and that diverse solutions on multiple fronts is what I think needs to happen... (also suggest seeing my post #27 in this thread for my more detailed thoughts on that video). 

 

I'm not particularly settled with the implication that doors are being closed to other research avenues - I just don't think that's the case when you look at the 'system' as a whole. Certain nations/groups are making bets or predictions on a certain technology, sure, but that's usually balanced out by someone else somewhere doing the opposite. Case in point, European nations/manufacturers seem more set on battery electrification and are making moves towards that, whilst Japan has been set on a distinctly hydrogen based economy including for vehicles. Hence a balance. 

 

If one solution really is significantly better than the others, that one will surely proliferate through into general use. 

 

Multiple paths should remain open. But I think that, like F1 teams, the powerful businesses in the world will all go in the same direction because they don't want to be the only one going in the wrong direction. I think most main car manufacturers have seen the success of Tesla and have seen something that works.

 

As one world, though, I see the most useful direction as being the acceptance that the societies and structures that we've put in place are unable to avoid significant climate change in the future and therefore we must plan on making the best of what will be left - rather than wasting effort on the false concept that we can turn things around if only we can agree with one another.



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#40 Ben1445

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Posted 20 September 2021 - 22:03

Multiple paths should remain open. But I think that, like F1 teams, the powerful businesses in the world will all go in the same direction because they don't want to be the only one going in the wrong direction. I think most main car manufacturers have seen the success of Tesla and have seen something that works.

Also don't disagree. At some point you do have to make a decision about what looks like the best option and run with it unless (or perhaps until) the situation changes and something else looks like the better option. It is definitely a lot easier to build an industry/market around one single technological direction than it is three or four concurrently. I think there really is solid reason to think that EV is the most promising right now, but at the same time accept that various macroscopic forces could well challenge that perception in future. We've seen that happen over and over again in human history.

I think my point really is that we shouldn't interpret many of the strategic plans and targets we see today as inflexibly ignoring or writing off all other options on a point of principle. In my view, it is a folly to think we will ever find the silver bullet solution or that just holding off on making any decisions will help us find it. That's not how the real world works.

As one world, though, I see the most useful direction as being the acceptance that the societies and structures that we've put in place are unable to avoid significant climate change in the future and therefore we must plan on making the best of what will be left - rather than wasting effort on the false concept that we can turn things around if only we can agree with one another.

I've basically already accepted that we're firmly in mitigation territory rather than avoidance and have done for a while. The outlook is a range of situations starting at not good and getting steadily worse from there on. I honestly think it's quite a common mindset in most of the younger (late- and post-millennial) people I know, and also one that I'm not sure is really recognised or taken seriously by everyone else.

However... what I will also say is that I think cynicism and pessimism are distinctly poisonous responses. There has to be a level hope and optimism, else there really is no point whatsoever. It just needs grounding in realism.

Edited by Ben1445, 20 September 2021 - 22:42.


#41 Ben1445

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 08:19

I figured that NoForumForOldPole (among others) would be interested to see this:

“In 2025, A Hydrogen-Powered Car May Well Challenge The Other Prototypes”
https://www.24h-lema...rototypes-55628
 

Pierre Fillon indicated that the chassis of the future racing cars may also be fitted with a hydrogen combustion engine.


Edited by Ben1445, 22 September 2021 - 08:22.


#42 cbo

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Posted 22 September 2021 - 19:09

AFAIK, "electrofuels" are an extremely inefficient way of making machines run. Currently, the cost is 10 times that of diesel and petrol and last I heard, researchers was hoping to bring the cost down to 3-4 times that of petrol/diesel. Costs that can easily be endured in motorsports, but will any investors be interested in an F1 series that has zero potential in passenger cars?

Electrofuels may be used in ships and planes, where batteriets are not an option, but of other applications, I am doubtfull.

Anyway, the interesting question is whether an electrofuelled F1 series is possible, if only planes and ships run on the stuff? I would think that some degree of application to cars would be a requirement for viable F1 technology?

Edited by cbo, 22 September 2021 - 19:16.


#43 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 11:37

Forbes is speculating about mass production GR Corolla offered with hydrogen engine as soon as 2023. The ICE hydrogen engine Toyota has been developed through motorsport, not the electric fuel cell version.

 

Awesome if true! Maybe there is green alternative to the eco militia mob enforced electrification after all. At least until they start screaming that ICE is too loud :D

 

 

https://www.forbes.c...sh=1434128e2fa1


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 08 October 2021 - 11:56.


#44 Ben1445

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 12:52

Would you buy one, NoForumForOldPole? 

 

If so, what would you you want to use it for and what expectations (purchase/running costs, range, practicality) would you have for it?  



#45 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 13:51

Would you buy one, NoForumForOldPole?

If so, what would you you want to use it for and what expectations (purchase/running costs, range, practicality) would you have for it?

Yes, I would buy one for the sake of the ecology. If we are talking Corolla GR that would be a daily driver, so expectation would be of typical present petrol hot hatch, driver's car that liveble every day and fun on the road and track. Range not dissimilar to petrol version would be awesome but I would be happy going to hydrogen station more often if necessery.

I am actually waiting for GR86 to buy as soon as they come to UK, purely because of Toyoda and his philosophy. It is petrol version of course. Once petrol cars are banned I am happy to swap to GR86 hydrogen.

Not in love in electric cars, unless we can recycle their batteries this could potentially cause big headache in the future.

My biggest hope is ICE hydrogen motorcycles, as I cannot imagine riding electric motorbike.

I want to do the right thing, help the planet achieve carbon neutrality, if I can do this without sacraficing my passion that is win, win, right? Toyota gives me hope it is achievable.

Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 08 October 2021 - 13:51.


#46 BerniesDad

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 15:32

Really good thread.

Nice see some alternatives to electric being explored. Like above, I am worried about the amount of mining for Cobalt, Lithium, Copper that would be needed to rebuild the world's fleet of cars with electric motors.

I was wondering about a racing series which doesn't allow *any* energy stored at the start of the race. No fuel tank, no charged battery etc, only what energy you can harvest from the sun and wind during the race. But then I think that perhaps I've invented the bicycle race.



#47 Squeed

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 15:50

Really good thread.

Nice see some alternatives to electric being explored. Like above, I am worried about the amount of mining for Cobalt, Lithium, Copper that would be needed to rebuild the world's fleet of cars with electric motors.

I was wondering about a racing series which doesn't allow *any* energy stored at the start of the race. No fuel tank, no charged battery etc, only what energy you can harvest from the sun and wind during the race. But then I think that perhaps I've invented the bicycle race.

That’s called yacht racing  :rotfl:



#48 Ben1445

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 17:30

Yes, I would buy one for the sake of the ecology. If we are talking Corolla GR that would be a daily driver, so expectation would be of typical present petrol hot hatch, driver's car that liveble every day and fun on the road and track. Range not dissimilar to petrol version would be awesome but I would be happy going to hydrogen station more often if necessery.

That's fair enough. My prediction right now (which may well change) would be that a hydrogen ICE wouldn't necessarily be the most cost effective or practical option out there. I say that partly because it is simply not the most efficient/eco-friendly way to create or use the fuel and partly because I see hydrogen production as facing enough challenges as it is to scale up production for use as a fuel where few other alternatives exist. I expect that would have knock on impacts to you as the end user. 

 

For example, if a you took the fuel tanks system out of a Fuel Cell Mirai (which can do ~400 miles) and supplanted it into a H2-ICE, I would expect a range drop to around 200 miles. Which actually isn't too bad, I happen to think that's roughly the threshold most EVs need to exceed for basic viability (and for the most part new models indeed now can). It can also be improved upon... but if you inherently have to refuel it twice as frequently as a fuel cell car for the same milage that's ultimately going to hit you in the wallet. Which if the combustion engine is really important to you may well be worth it. 

 

I'd also consider that producing green hydrogen which isn't derived from fossil fuels requires a lot of electricity to produce - electricity which could otherwise go directly into an EV at relatively high efficiency. If filling your fuel cell car with an equivalent to-the-wheels kWh load of hydrogen takes (for example) 5 times as much energy to produce (or maybe 10 times in the case of an H2-ICE) as it would just using an EV... it is likely to cost a similar magnitude more. Again, if the combustion engine is really important to you that may well be worth it. 

 

Another thing is that you would more than likely be tied to refuelling it at refilling stations like we do today with petrol. That may well be fine, but with a shorter ultimate range and in comparison to EVs which could mostly be charging when at home/work might be seen as less practical. You'd probably want easy and convenient access to hydrogen refilling stations, of which I think there's a reasonably high chance that could happen if Utility/HGVs shift over to hydrogen. But then if hydrogen supply faces challenges meeting demand even from only HGV, shipping, rail, aviation, steelmaking etc. I'd imagine that its use in a smaller H2-ICE or Fuel Cell everyday car may be discouraged since better alternatives could be said to exist... probably through means such as fuel duty/taxes. Which, again, if the combustion engine is really important to you may well be worth it. 

 

With all that in mind, I'd still say that H2-ICE might generally be more suited to something like a for-pleasure sports-car/bike as you also talk about. The kind where you don't necessarily use it all that much and mainly just derive enjoyment from spending time (and money) in/on it. The kind where any drawbacks in that it may cost more to refuel, more to maintain and that it's perhaps not as practical to use don't really matter because you have a passion for the technology which powers it. 

 

I want to do the right thing, help the planet achieve carbon neutrality, if I can do this without sacraficing my passion that is win, win, right? Toyota gives me hope it is achievable.

So ultimately yes, that would be a win-win I think. If someone can make a carbon neutral H2-ICE offering which meets your personal needs and/or expectations then who's to get in the way of that? Wouldn't really matter if almost everyone else was driving something different.  



#49 Ben1445

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Posted 08 October 2021 - 17:49

Not in love in electric cars, unless we can recycle their batteries this could potentially cause big headache in the future.

The quickest answer to this is that we can recycle them and the industry is only getting better at doing it. That goes for both the recycling techniques and the fundamental designs of newer packs to allow for better recyclability. I think there's good reason to believe that developments in this area will reduce concerns over both battery disposal and in mining for new materials.



#50 solochamp07

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Posted 09 October 2021 - 15:40

Question for the proponents of banning internal combustion; where and how is the energy being used to charge these vehicles, generated? What will be the effects to infrastructure of entire populations plugging their toasters teslas in to charge every night at the same time? Companies exploring synthetic and alternative IC fuel solutions today will be in good position to benefit tomorrow, from mankind's current scourge of blinkered stupidity.