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Hydrogen powered ICE in motorsport


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#1 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:48

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:13.


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#2 Ben1445

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 11:55

Not the 24H Le Mans, but the 24 Hours of Fuji. 



#3 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 12:04

Not the 24H Le Mans, but the 24 Hours of Fuji. 

 

Oh sorry I read somewhere else LM. Edited.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 12:05.


#4 pitlanepalpatine

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 12:40

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl: 



#5 pdac

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 15:50

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl:

 

Well, the OP does mention 'hydro' power (as in water) and not 'hydrogen' power (as in that element that generates water)



#6 ch103

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:19

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydro powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

really really cool but is the engine lubricated with oil?



#7 Garndell

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:30

Wait Fuji? Is the car gonna be powered by rain?  :rotfl:

 

Seeing Hydro & ICE does make one wonder if the fuel is solid when they fuel it up. :stoned:



#8 Pete_f1

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 16:34

Oh, I thought a hosepipe from a tap would be needed!

#9 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:23

Hydrogen is result of splitting H20 into hydrogen and oxygen right? So defacto Water => Hydrogen => Fuel for ICE - I think only ones who did not want to know did not know what I meant :p The ICE as in Internal Combustion Engine not water in solid states, otherways one could say Ice => Hydrogen => Fuel for ICE. :D

 

Anyway, does it not give you hope? 1.6 3 cylinder GR Yaris engine powered by hydrogen available to buy in 2030 when there is a ban on Petrol Cars? 


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:34.


#10 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:25

Oh, I thought a hosepipe from a tap would be needed!

 

No you can just spit into the tube :p



#11 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 04 May 2021 - 20:26

really really cool but is the engine lubricated with oil?

 

As far as I am concerned - it is.


Edited by NoForumForOldPole, 04 May 2021 - 20:28.


#12 Pingguest

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 07:49

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

 

Internal combustion engines are not emission-free, as they produce oxides of nitroge. However, hydrogen - just like so-called e-fuels - might help reducing emissions coming from the current fleet.



#13 ARTGP

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:13

This is quite interesting:

https://www.youtube....h?v=2dgzKW8EKMc

 

Hydrogen powered, internal combustion engine and it sounds just like a real deal because it is a real deal! - just when I was thinking there is no way of saving ICE, Toyota is going to run this in 24 Hours of Fuji in 2021.

 

https://mag.toyota.c...ydrogen-racing/

 

I will follow this with great interest.

 

 

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

 

Hydrogen combustion might stand a chance for a longer time in something massive like marine transport however. A hydrogen fuel for container ships would be much more environmentally friendly than diesel fuel.


Edited by ARTGP, 05 May 2021 - 08:19.


#14 NoForumForOldPole

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:54

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

Hydrogen combustion might stand a chance for a longer time in something massive like marine transport however. A hydrogen fuel for container ships would be much more environmentally friendly than diesel fuel.


'Barbaric' - that is excelent summary of ICE, and exactly barbaric element is something that has appeal to myself as a driver and as a motorsport fan. I am not hoping hydrogen can save passanger transport, but I rather hope it will circumvent the ban on Petrol powered cars, not for the masses but for petrolheads for use as a hobby and also as a form of motorsport. In other words way to be green and barbaric at the same time :D

In terms of emission of NOx, I (possibly wrongly) read Hydrogen powered engine is still much less then petrol version of same ICE model? Is that correct?

#15 Risil

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 08:57

I think there still isn't any way to truly save the ICE for motorsport or the passenger car. The whole thing looks rather barbaric compared to the simplicity of an electric motor.

 

What forms motor sport takes in the future is going to be determined in a large part by what gets crowds going and what kind of cars people will go out of their way to see. Open question there I think.



#16 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:16

I really don't think motorsport's health is at risk simply because of a powertrain choice supposedly not 'getting crowds going'. 

 

Sport is a human endeavour and our interest is tied to relatable stories. A relatable story for many will be the push towards a cleaner technological future as much as it will be hanging on to that ICE heritage for others. We have to recognise those two sides of the same coin. 

 

I don't believe ICE racing is about to die suddenly in the year 2030, just the same as I don't believe electric motorsport is a fool's errand. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 May 2021 - 09:18.


#17 Pingguest

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:28

'Barbaric' - that is excelent summary of ICE, and exactly barbaric element is something that has appeal to myself as a driver and as a motorsport fan. I am not hoping hydrogen can save passanger transport, but I rather hope it will circumvent the ban on Petrol powered cars, not for the masses but for petrolheads for use as a hobby and also as a form of motorsport. In other words way to be green and barbaric at the same time :D

In terms of emission of NOx, I (possibly wrongly) read Hydrogen powered engine is still much less then petrol version of same ICE model? Is that correct?

 

An internal combustion engine running on hydrogen is indeed a lot cleaner than one running on petrol or diesel.



#18 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 09:34

Interesting thing to watch out for with this car in the 24 Hours of Fuji will be the stint length and refilling time.

 

It's a shame that it seems we won't have a comparable hydrogen fuel cell car racing against it. Maybe one day. 


Edited by Ben1445, 05 May 2021 - 09:35.


#19 JHSingo

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 11:06

I'll freely admit that I'm not too technically-inclined when it comes to this sort of thing. The feasibility and practicality of making something like this work I'll leave to those more knowledgeable. However...this does seem quite significant.  

 

I think it is an inescapable fact that the lack of engine noise from electric cars, particularly in a motorsport environment, is still a big issue for quite a few people. Particularly if more and more championships start making the switch to electric power in the next few years, I can see it becoming more and more of a talking point. We saw the reaction F1's switch to V6Ts got - well, say if NASCAR or some other series went electric, the response would surely be even worse than that. It's something that's going to become an increasing problem - how series can ensure their survival and remain relevant, whilst also not switching off a large percentage of their traditional fans. 

 

So, if there was a way to retain some engine noise, whilst also ensuring the engines are much cleaner/environmentally friendly - as would appear to be the case here - then surely that's the best of both worlds. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on how this develops. 



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#20 Ben1445

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Posted 05 May 2021 - 13:48

I'll freely admit that I'm not too technically-inclined when it comes to this sort of thing. The feasibility and practicality of making something like this work I'll leave to those more knowledgeable. However...this does seem quite significant.  

 

I think it is an inescapable fact that the lack of engine noise from electric cars, particularly in a motorsport environment, is still a big issue for quite a few people. Particularly if more and more championships start making the switch to electric power in the next few years, I can see it becoming more and more of a talking point. We saw the reaction F1's switch to V6Ts got - well, say if NASCAR or some other series went electric, the response would surely be even worse than that. It's something that's going to become an increasing problem - how series can ensure their survival and remain relevant, whilst also not switching off a large percentage of their traditional fans. 

 

So, if there was a way to retain some engine noise, whilst also ensuring the engines are much cleaner/environmentally friendly - as would appear to be the case here - then surely that's the best of both worlds. I'll definitely be keeping an eye on how this develops. 

On combustion, as I said, I think there's going to be enough people who will relate to and engage with the 'traditional' way of going racing for a while yet. It won't completely disappear so long as it's not outright banned, and to get to that point it would probably need the general public opinion of combustion motor racing to fall as low as that of bloodsports - which if it can exploit some of the 'carbon neutral' technologies like hydrogen combustion or 'sustainable fuels' doesn't seem so likely. For example, Formula One knows that it will have to rely on combustion to do the kind of racing that its fans know and love and so has started their sustainable fuels plan to try and avoid popular opinion turning against them. That has to be seen as a positive development for the sport. 

 

About noise...I've said it before that we rarely hear perspectives from outside the traditional fanbase. We shouldn't let survivorship bias creep into this debate around noise if we're to understand the real impacts; how many people don't watch the traditional combustion sport because of the noise who are already (or could be game for) watching electric racing... and who's input, almost by definition, so rarely features in these discussions or in fan surveys. 

 

Ultimately, I think it's a logical fallacy for anyone to use the opinions from exclusively within the existing fanbase to suggest (directly or indirectly) that motorsport only has the popularity it has because of the noise and that the sport will fundamentally struggle to survive without it. I simply cannot accept the assumption that more purely electric racing series in the mix is going to be a problem for the sport's ultimate survival based on both reason and experience. Conversely, and certainly in the near term, I rather more see it as an opportunity to bring more numerous and diverse fans into the sport we love. 

 

Realistically, we're heading into an era in which both combustion and electric powertrain technologies will have to exist concurrently and in which sustainability is a common core focus. It's probably not the most constructive pathway for the sport to be at war with itself about that and become adversarial about which technology needs to 'win' an imagined battle for the soul of the sport.  


Edited by Ben1445, 06 May 2021 - 07:31.