392 replies to this topic

[Ben1445]

I think Toyota were probably more adversely affected by the repeated rounds of changes to the LMH regulations as they went from a road car based concept to an LMP1-lite BoP’d with the IMSA class.

I feel like their concerns over this class might be more related to that. They don’t want to commit, only to have the details change down the line and cause them problems. The class introduction date has already been delayed twice, and the technical scope has evolved a lot (ironically enough at the request of Toyota wanting to do combustion).

Fact is there is no guarantee that this class will be introduced and offer what the ACO claim it will just yet.

[MKSixer]

You do understand, I hope, this is a limited quantity and it’s just a matter of time? It WILL finish.

Then there’s the aspect of impact. You say you’re 58…you’ve seen weather patterns changing, right? Should we really continue when we have a better alternative?

Please tell me what your assertion on limited quantity is based? I have presented the objective reality of all predictions in the past, not being wrong, but being repeatedly spectacularly wrong.  Why do you think that they are correct when all verifiable evidence is to the contrary. 

[kumo7]

I think Toyota were probably more adversely affected by the repeated rounds of changes to the LMH regulations as they went from a road car based concept to an LMP1-lite BoP’d with the IMSA class.

I feel like their concerns over this class might be more related to that. They don’t want to commit, only to have the details change down the line and cause them problems. The class introduction date has already been delayed twice, and the technical scope has evolved a lot (ironically enough at the request of Toyota wanting to do combustion).

Fact is there is no guarantee that this class will be introduced and offer what the ACO claim it will just yet.

I can see your point. Toyota still remain as an oversas participant to the European event. If Toyota were to play on an equal trims in all sense, then Toyota needs to become a true colleague of the European. Racing takes it, at least to race at the top end of the political scene of the European racing series, it needs to face up the cultural aspects.

[MikeTekRacing]

Please tell me what your assertion on limited quantity is based? I have presented the objective reality of all predictions in the past, not being wrong, but being repeatedly spectacularly wrong. Why do you think that they are correct when all verifiable evidence is to the contrary.

You do understand that availability is finite since we burn it? We could have been wrong with estimates by 10,20 or 5000%. It is still using a substance that we burn.
How can you believe that substance is unlimited?

Do you understand how this is certainly unsustainable? Add the fact that burning it generates lots of CO2 and it’s the perfect mix.

People wrongly estimating the availability of it is like people not knowing they had some more coins in pockets. Ok, you’ll find 5 more $100 bills in your wardrobe. 10 more? At some point you will run out of them if you keep on burning the bills to cook food

[MKSixer]

You do understand that availability is finite since we burn it? We could have been wrong with estimates by 10,20 or 5000%. It is still using a substance that we burn.
How can you believe that substance is unlimited?

Do you understand how this is certainly unsustainable? Add the fact that burning it generates lots of CO2 and it’s the perfect mix.

People wrongly estimating the availability of it is like people not knowing they had some more coins in pockets. Ok, you’ll find 5 more $100 bills in your wardrobe. 10 more? At some point you will run out of them if you keep on burning the bills to cook food

I answer with facts and you provide conjecture.  Answer me with facts or end this.  Your analogy isn't applicable.  The earth is a complex system and to use a wardrobe and pocket change  as your point of comparison is dreadfully unsophisticated.  

 

I will ask one more time.  Where is your EVIDENCE that there is a finite and unrenewable supply of petro-carbons on the earth?

Edited by MKSixer, 15 June 2023 - 11:27.

[PayasYouRace]

I answer with facts and you provide conjecture. Answer me with facts or end this. Your analogy isn't applicable. The earth is a complex system and to use a wardrobe and pocket change as your point of comparison is dreadfully unsophisticated.

I will ask one more time. Where is your EVIDENCE that there is a finite and unrenewable supply of petro-carbons on the earth?

The evidence is that the Earth’s crust had a finite mass.

[MKSixer]

The evidence is that the Earth’s crust had a finite mass.

The mass of the crust has nothing to do with the supply of petrocarbons. 

Edited by MKSixer, 15 June 2023 - 12:08.

[PayasYouRace]

The mass of the crust has nothing to do with the supply of petrocarbons.

Where you think it all comes from? A magic portal to another dimension?

[pdac]

Where you think it all comes from? A magic portal to another dimension?

 

No, it's the oil fairy.

[MKSixer]

Where you think it all comes from? A magic portal to another dimension?

I thought this was a reasonable conversation but it clearly isn't since you have denigrated it to silliness.  Those who THINK there is a finite supply of oil and who propagate the lie of a finite supply are very ignorant about petrochemicals.  The Saudi's can make a profit pumping oil at less than $20USD per barrel.  

 

ALL but 2 of my very close friends are engineers in the petrochemical industry.  They laugh their asses all the way to the bank about the myths and lies which are propagated for political purposes around oil. They pay people to NOT pump oil here.  The number of capped wells within 100 miles of where I live is shocking. The number of refineries here is very high, per capita.  Oil is what we do and the supply isn't going anywhere because a few people have tried for decades to scare everyone.  They were wrong then and they are wrong now.  

 

And please understand, I'm 100 percent on utilizing our resources in the most efficient and non-negative impactful way.  This is done through collective cooperation, not propaganda and lies.

 

https://www.dnr.loui...mp=home&pid=204

[pdac]

I thought this was a reasonable conversation but it clearly isn't since you have denigrated it to silliness.  Those who THINK there is a finite supply of oil and who propagate the lie of a finite supply are very ignorant about petrochemicals.  The Saudi's can make a profit pumping oil at less than $20USD per barrel.  

 

ALL but 2 of my very close friends are engineers in the petrochemical industry.  They laugh their asses all the way to the bank about the myths and lies which are propagated for political purposes around oil. They pay people to NOT pump oil here.  The number of capped wells within 100 miles of where I live is shocking. The number of refineries here is very high, per capita.  Oil is what we do and the supply isn't going anywhere because a few people have tried for decades to scare everyone.  They were wrong then and they are wrong now.  

 

And please understand, I'm 100 percent on utilizing our resources in the most efficient and non-negative impactful way.  This is done through collective cooperation, not propaganda and lies.

 

https://www.dnr.loui...mp=home&pid=204

 

As has been pointed out earlier, the finite amount of oil may be much larger than people purport, but it's still a finite amount and it will eventually run out if we continue to burn it. How long it might take is a different matter - but it will be used up eventually unless something changes.

 

Oh, and don't forget that vast amounts of oil are used up in many other ways (e.g. plastic manufacture and other chemical processes).

[highdownforce]

I answer with facts and you provide conjecture. Answer me with facts or end this. Your analogy isn't applicable. The earth is a complex system and to use a wardrobe and pocket change as your point of comparison is dreadfully unsophisticated.

I will ask one more time. Where is your EVIDENCE that there is a finite and unrenewable supply of petro-carbons on the earth?

One should understand what is petrol, when in time it was formed, its components, how it was formed and how we access it.

Hydrocarbons in the form of petroleum, gas and coal takes thousands of years to be formed. And its natural occurrence is much more slower that our capacity to harvest it.

Soon, harvesting the remaining oil will not be economically feasible or relevant.

That why it is a finite resource.

We a talking of a car at the speed of 5Km/h being chased by the 2023 RBR in the hands of Verstapen on a straight line (fully fueled).

The car will be reached.

[MKSixer]

As has been pointed out earlier, the finite amount of oil may be much larger than people purport, but it's still a finite amount and it will eventually run out if we continue to burn it. How long it might take is a different matter - but it will be used up eventually unless something changes.

 

Oh, and don't forget that vast amounts of oil are used up in many other ways (e.g. plastic manufacture and other chemical processes).

Again, you don't know this.  You are theorizing this based on current human understanding of how the world works.  Just as the same thing you are saying was proven wrong 40 years ago, it will be proven wrong 40 years from now.  Have you noticed the trend of MAN making predictions about natural phenomena are proven incorrect time and time again.  It is human arrogance to continue to make these prognostications.  

 

Be a good steward, conserve, be efficient, lower your impact.  This is the best way to live.  Lies and propaganda are serving multiple agendas that have very little to do with actual science and more to do with politics and financial gain.  

[PayasYouRace]

Again, you don't know this. You are theorizing this based on current human understanding of how the world works. Just as the same thing you are saying was proven wrong 40 years ago, it will be proven wrong 40 years from now. Have you noticed the trend of MAN making predictions about natural phenomena are proven incorrect time and time again. It is human arrogance to continue to make these prognostications.

Be a good steward, conserve, be efficient, lower your impact. This is the best way to live. Lies and propaganda are serving multiple agendas that have very little to do with actual science and more to do with politics and financial gain.

We’re trying to have a reasonable conversation and you’re pretending oil is infinite in supply. Scientific understanding is a process of refinement.

[pdac]

Again, you don't know this.  You are theorizing this based on current human understanding of how the world works.  Just as the same thing you are saying was proven wrong 40 years ago, it will be proven wrong 40 years from now.  Have you noticed the trend of MAN making predictions about natural phenomena are proven incorrect time and time again.  It is human arrogance to continue to make these prognostications.  

 

Be a good steward, conserve, be efficient, lower your impact.  This is the best way to live.  Lies and propaganda are serving multiple agendas that have very little to do with actual science and more to do with politics and financial gain.  

 

You are suggesting that no one knows how large the planet is or whether it is made of something other than oil. If you know how large the planet is, even if you think it's entirely made of oil, it is irrefutable that the amount of oil here is finite.

Edited by pdac, 15 June 2023 - 16:46.

[Autodromo]

Again, you don't know this.  You are theorizing this based on current human understanding of how the world works.  Just as the same thing you are saying was proven wrong 40 years ago, it will be proven wrong 40 years from now.  Have you noticed the trend of MAN making predictions about natural phenomena are proven incorrect time and time again.  It is human arrogance to continue to make these prognostications.  

 

Be a good steward, conserve, be efficient, lower your impact.  This is the best way to live.  Lies and propaganda are serving multiple agendas that have very little to do with actual science and more to do with politics and financial gain.  

So just to be clear; you are stating that the supply of petrochemicals is infinite?  Can you please explain that to us?

 

Meanwhile, you can look up proven reserves through various online sources and look at consumption rates and use basic math to calculate when it will run out.  That doesn't tell you, however, how expensive it is to get to some of the known oil reserves, and the geopolitics of who has what.  That will likely reduce the availability in countries that do not have as much access to reserves.  Now, is the amount of "proven reserves" off?  Probably, but it is there.  And yes, the Saudis can pump oil for $20/barrel or less, but in the US it is about $40/barrel to pump.  And the US is pumping like crazy and is likely to run out in a decade or two.  The Saudis and others are just sitting on their reserves, and will surely use it strategically to get what they want if we do not work to wean ourselves from oil soon.  Hydrogen, EVs, nuclear and so forth.  

[F1Lurker]

I thought this was a reasonable conversation but it clearly isn't since you have denigrated it to silliness.  Those who THINK there is a finite supply of oil and who propagate the lie of a finite supply are very ignorant about petrochemicals.  The Saudi's can make a profit pumping oil at less than $20USD per barrel.  

 

ALL but 2 of my very close friends are engineers in the petrochemical industry.  They laugh their asses all the way to the bank about the myths and lies which are propagated for political purposes around oil. They pay people to NOT pump oil here.  The number of capped wells within 100 miles of where I live is shocking. The number of refineries here is very high, per capita.  Oil is what we do and the supply isn't going anywhere because a few people have tried for decades to scare everyone.  They were wrong then and they are wrong now.  

 

And please understand, I'm 100 percent on utilizing our resources in the most efficient and non-negative impactful way.  This is done through collective cooperation, not propaganda and lies.

 

https://www.dnr.loui...mp=home&pid=204

Not to be insulting, but this is a completely delusional argument. Or perhaps you dont understand what "finite" means.

 

We can argue about how long a commerical supply will last (10yrs, 20yrs, 50yrs, 100yrs, etc.), but surely you cannot argue that the oil supply is infinite. We can also rationally argue that ICEs have a place in the forseeable future and other fuels (including climate friendly ones) can be developed to replace crude oil.

[highdownforce]

IMSA open to Hydrogen class if OEMs are interested.

https://sportscar365...n-oem-interest/

[Beri]

Recently there has been a break though with Nuclear Fusion. Scientists of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have recreated a feat last month that they already accomplished in December of 2022; the actual Nuclear Fusion reaction delivered more output than the input of energy actually was.

 

This is potentially huge considering future energy demands but also for the creation of hydrogen which could very well could become energy neutral. Something hardly imaginable at this moment.

 

US scientists repeat fusion power breakthrough | Financial Times (ft.com)

[pdac]

Recently there has been a break though with Nuclear Fusion. Scientists of the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory have recreated a feat last month that they already accomplished in December of 2022; the actual Nuclear Fusion reaction delivered more output than the input of energy actually was.

 

This is potentially huge considering future energy demands but also for the creation of hydrogen which could very well could become energy neutral. Something hardly imaginable at this moment.

 

US scientists repeat fusion power breakthrough | Financial Times (ft.com)

 

I would bet my life savings that everyone reading this board will be dead before there's a fusion reactor of sufficient capacity to power even a small village.

[Beri]

Not saying that it will happen during our days. But things are taking somewhat a flight right now. Which is relatively spoken ofcourse. But no denying that major milestones are reached now.

[pdac]

Not saying that it will happen during our days. But things are taking somewhat a flight right now. Which is relatively spoken ofcourse. But no denying that major milestones are reached now.

 

The trouble is that global warming - that will not be addressed, no matter what people say right now - will create so much turmoil in the world that everybody will be focused on protecting their societies and not so much on the science of the not so near future. If what we were lead to believe when fission reactors were developed had come true, we'd have given up fossil fuels decades ago and everyone would be spoilt with the amount of super-cheap, readily available energy that we'd all have instant access to.

Edited by pdac, 08 August 2023 - 18:36.

[cbo]

Not saying that it will happen during our days. But things are taking somewhat a flight right now. Which is relatively spoken ofcourse. But no denying that major milestones are reached now.

Its the Aeolipile to James Watts steam engine.

[MKSixer]

So just to be clear; you are stating that the supply of petrochemicals is infinite?  Can you please explain that to us?

 

Meanwhile, you can look up proven reserves through various online sources and look at consumption rates and use basic math to calculate when it will run out.  That doesn't tell you, however, how expensive it is to get to some of the known oil reserves, and the geopolitics of who has what.  That will likely reduce the availability in countries that do not have as much access to reserves.  Now, is the amount of "proven reserves" off?  Probably, but it is there.  And yes, the Saudis can pump oil for $20/barrel or less, but in the US it is about $40/barrel to pump.  And the US is pumping like crazy and is likely to run out in a decade or two.  The Saudis and others are just sitting on their reserves, and will surely use it strategically to get what they want if we do not work to wean ourselves from oil soon.  Hydrogen, EVs, nuclear and so forth.  

I'm saying it's unknown and likely far higher than the numbers the doomsayers continue to pronounce.

 

Are you kidding when I told you that they are paying people to NOT PUMP here?  They aren't pumping like crazy here. That simply isn't true. And if your prediction is that we are running out in a decade or two you will soon be on the garbage heap of incorrect predictions, as well.  

[kumo7]

Pumping crude oil or not is a serious issue considering economy and Motorsport. But when a thread is set up about hydrogen in Motorsport, it might becrskennwith a bit of nuance.
Hydrogen is promoted because it creates only water (and very little amount of NOx) on the contrary oil does continue the status quo.
Reducing the Burning might be more important to reduce the climate change. But power company lobbies against mounting solar cells on top of all buildings in the city. This will make a city a power plant. This will reduce pressure on motor racing.

[Ben1445]

Article about AVL Racetech's hydrogen combustion racing engine in Autosport today: 
 
AVL RACETECH hydrogen combustion engine to be on track “earlier than you may think”
AVL RACETECH’s first race-specific hydrogen combustion engine will be on track “earlier than you may think” with Le Mans 2027 hinted at.
https://www.autospor...think/10565987/

[Beri]

Truly something to get excited about!

[Ben1445]

[AustinF1]

The first non-polluting combustion engine: 440 HP of power and only emits water vapor  https://www.ecoticia...ng expectations.

[Ben1445]

Alpine Reveals Alpenglow HY4 Hydrogen Combustion Prototype At Spa
https://www.motorspo...t-spa/10608834/

"Based on a concept car first presented at the 2022 Paris Motor Show, the 340 bhp Alpenglow Hy4 is powered by a turbocharged 2.0-litre in-line four-cylinder internal combustion engine fuelled by hydrogen.

This is currently stored in gas form in three tanks, but Alpine plans to switch to liquid storage which it believes can be better integrated into the car and improve refuelling speeds.

Demonstration runs of the Alpenglow Hy4 will also be made at the Le Mans 24 Hours next month, before a second rolling version with a new V6 engine is unveiled prior to the end of the year."

[kumo7]

Water injection add power to pure hydrogen burning. Great.

[kumo7]

The first non-polluting combustion engine: 440 HP of power and only emits water vapor https://www.ecoticia...ng expectations.

Great.

This must be a Water injection system that increases power output! Can’t wait till its come to the racing track.

[highdownforce]

According to club president Pierre Fillon, there will be at least one hydrogen prototype on the grid for the centrepiece round of the World Endurance Championship in 2028 and “two or three the year after, or maybe more”.

https://www.motorspo...-2029/10611531/

[highdownforce]

A mockup of the H24EVO (fuel cell) was presented today at Lemans.

https://www.fiawec.c...at-le-mans/7993

[Secretariat]

The more I see and think about this hydrogen evolution, particularly in a hydrogen electric format, the more I think about, why not experiment more with steam. 

[Ben1445]

Saleen plotting a potential hydrogen ICE return at Le Mans. 

 

https://sportscar365...ered-prototype/

[kumo7]

The more I see and think about this hydrogen evolution, particularly in a hydrogen electric format, the more I think about, why not experiment more with steam. 

 

They do already. H has water injection.

[Secretariat]

They do already. H has water injection.

Thanks for that. I am more thinking about it as a primary source....like a steam generator and battery, or some other combination.

[kumo7]

Thanks for that. I am more thinking about it as a primary source....like a steam generator and battery, or some other combination.

 

Dust off the Watt!

[juicy sushi]

Extreme E unveiled their hydrogen-powered car today.  It has a lot of interesting details beyond the powerplant, with a lot of changes from the old car due to their experiences crashing and repairing them in the field:  https://racer.com/20...-extreme-h-car/

[highdownforce]

☝🏻 fuel cell

[highdownforce]

2028 will be the first season of the hydrogen class in WEC.

However, hydrogen ICEs and FCs will race only at maximum three races: Spa, Lemans and maybe the Japan round.

https://sportscar365...season-in-2028/

[Beri]

Which is still a stunning feat of engineering and technological advancement if there actually are hydrogen powered cars running the entire length of said races. Let alone if they can mingle for the top spots.