992 replies to this topic

[HeadFirst]

Changing the topic. What's happened happened alonsos 6 tenths. Is it time to accept time our the car and age has resulted in him losing qualy pace. I know qualy wasn't particularly his strength but still.

At the moment Ocon is outperforming him

 

I prefer to think that Ocon is finally coming into his own. I'm sure that Fernando's break, and unfamiliarity with the Alpine have something to do with the difference, but I give credit to Esteban.

[HeadFirst]

Interesting, personally, if I'm Red Bull, IF Perez needs to be dropped, then I'm changing strategy and going for the biggest game in town, no more messing about. They need a GUN in that seat.  Feelers out to Hamilton and Alonso.  Of course Hamilton will say no, and Alonso might as well.  Then go down the line with Ocon, Norris, Leclerc, Russell. Quit dicking about. Just get talent in that seat, and deal with the feuding later.

 

Hmmmm ..... Ocon might even be available for 2022, and has looked impressive so far this year. Max/Esteban would be a very interesting combo.

[Bliman]

Hmmmm ..... Ocon might even be available for 2022, and has looked impressive so far this year. Max/Esteban would be a very interesting combo.

Max would wipe the floor with him so bad it wouldn't be funny. Isn't it clear that all those that switched teams are struggling. Now consider from where Alonso comes.

[Lights]

Red Bull need a contingency plan if Perez does not work out this year. They might have to swallow their own pill and rehire Gasly. 

 

I think you can throw many many drivers at that seat and all it will do is further confirm how good Max is. It's becoming a bit naïve to keep thinking there's somehow someone available that will perfectly fulfil the #2 role at Red Bull.

 

For now we should give Perez the benefit of the doubt. I'm fairly confident he's a step up from Gasly and Albon. Just perhaps not a qualifying specialist, but overall no worse than those drivers in that aspect either.

What Perez showed from a difficult position in his first race in Bahrain, the qualy lap in Imola, and his racepace in the first stint in Portimao, that already showed more quality than Gasly and Albon showed 90% of the time in that seat.

 

There's very little indication that Gasly would be able to do better than Perez or even better than he did the last time. It seems very much the case that he's simply able to perform a bit better at AT for various reasons.

[Massa]

I think he is wrong. If you don't want to get into trouble with running out of time, then leave the pitlane first. It's a completely separate issue that we are talking about.

Once you form the queue in the last sector, you hold position. If that means you don't cross the line, then the problem is you did not leave the pits early enough, not that the gentlemans agreement prevented you from overtaking somebody else. Ricciardo did it perfectly and respected the rule, and much respect to him for doing that even though it cost him his lap. The team needed to send him out earlier.

It was not about having to cross the line before the checkered flag, it was about safety. He couldn't put his car behind others, it was dangerous.

[Rodaknee]

https://youtu.be/scPAsW8PcGk?t=22

 

Amazing

He had a rant about the team when he was interviewed on Sky.  He claimed his car was different - and worse - than Gasly's.  He's not going to be popular at AlphaTauri.

[Rodaknee]

I think he is wrong. If you don't want to get into trouble with running out of time, then leave the pitlane first. It's a completely separate issue that we are talking about.

 

Once you form the queue in the last sector, you hold position. If that means you don't cross the line, then the problem is you did not leave the pits early enough, not that the gentlemans agreement prevented you from overtaking somebody else.  Ricciardo did it perfectly and respected the rule, and much respect to him for doing that even though it cost him his lap. The team needed to send him out earlier. 

His team are making a horlicks of looking after him on track.  Mazepin, along with all the other drivers, needs to know what's happening behind.  Being so slow, he needs extra help in qualifying.

[Mat13]

He had a rant about the team when he was interviewed on Sky. He claimed his car was different - and worse - than Gasly's. He's not going to be popular at AlphaTauri.

Shows a slight lack of self-awareness, ranting about his car while his teammate was 5th in Q1...

[ARTGP]

His team are making a horlicks of looking after him on track.  Mazepin, along with all the other drivers, needs to know what's happening behind.  Being so slow, he needs extra help in qualifying.

 

Oh I'm absolutely sure they are making a horlicks of it. Haas has a reputation for this long before Mazepin. Grosjean and Magnussen came afoul of this often in 2019. Haas even talked about a few years ago like a point of pride to not inform their drivers about other cars during qualifying...They never learn.  They were starting from last anyway, so there is no incentive for them to change.

Edited by ARTGP, 08 May 2021 - 17:56.

[AustinF1]

Frankly its getting a bit silly with British media who keep trying to put RB/Max in the favorites role no matter what saying RB is faster. But I guess they have a bit of an agenda to push ;)

Amus has a much more balanced article on yesterday.

LOL, yep. And I'm sure we'll hear more than once tomorrow that RBR has the quicker car. Probably with Toto leading the way.

[Heyli]

@NobleF1

Nikita Mazepin handed three-place grid penalty for #SpanishGP, but reckons F1's gentleman's agreement over qualifying car order etiquette doesn't work

 

https://www.motorspo...flawed/6505176/

Is this now not the 3rd time in 4 races that he broke it?

 

Seems most drivers are able to stick to it. Just the occasional slip-up. 

[SophieB]

Is this now not the 3rd time in 4 races that he broke it?

 

Seems most drivers are able to stick to it. Just the occasional slip-up. 

I do suspect he’s in reality being done for the previous races more than today.

[prty]

Changing the topic. What's happened happened alonsos 6 tenths. Is it time to accept time our the car and age has resulted in him losing qualy pace. I know qualy wasn't particularly his strength but still.

At the moment Ocon is outperforming him

He's at the moment one or two tenths off Ocon (see the Alpine thread comparing all sectors done in qualifying), but both on Portugal (no warm up lap) and now in Spain, the preparation of the final lap was bad, causing the tyres not to work properly.

[ANF]

@NobleF1
Nikita Mazepin handed three-place grid penalty for #SpanishGP, but reckons F1's gentleman's agreement over qualifying car order etiquette doesn't work
 
https://www.motorspo...flawed/6505176/

Two and a half metres is a typo, right?

"With the length of a car, which is two and a half metres, you just cannot put a third car there, and especially if the fourth car is arriving at full speed."

[ARTGP]

@NobleF1

Nikita Mazepin handed three-place grid penalty for #SpanishGP, but reckons F1's gentleman's agreement over qualifying car order etiquette doesn't work

 

https://www.motorspo...flawed/6505176/

 

 

 

 

"I'm not upset about it, because there's really not much I could have done, apart from, you know, disappear. Which unfortunately I'm not yet able to do."

 

Nikita is clearly baiting here...and I won't fall for it! 

Edited by ARTGP, 09 May 2021 - 00:04.

[Mat13]

Watching it again, he should have just followed the cars he was behind- who all stayed off the racing line. Instead, he pulled out from behind them onto the racing line in order to speed up. He’s just not very clever...

[Clrnc]

I think you can throw many many drivers at that seat and all it will do is further confirm how good Max is. It's becoming a bit naïve to keep thinking there's somehow someone available that will perfectly fulfil the #2 role at Red Bull.

 

For now we should give Perez the benefit of the doubt. I'm fairly confident he's a step up from Gasly and Albon. Just perhaps not a qualifying specialist, but overall no worse than those drivers in that aspect either.

What Perez showed from a difficult position in his first race in Bahrain, the qualy lap in Imola, and his racepace in the first stint in Portimao, that already showed more quality than Gasly and Albon showed 90% of the time in that seat.

 

There's very little indication that Gasly would be able to do better than Perez or even better than he did the last time. It seems very much the case that he's simply able to perform a bit better at AT for various reasons.

That's spot on. Perez was injured yesterday and even then he has been fine at RB considering the adaptation period. 

 

He is always a late bloomer/adapter anyway. He comes stronger in the 2nd part of the season

[RPM40]

I think you can throw many many drivers at that seat and all it will do is further confirm how good Max is. It's becoming a bit naïve to keep thinking there's somehow someone available that will perfectly fulfil the #2 role at Red Bull.

 

For now we should give Perez the benefit of the doubt. I'm fairly confident he's a step up from Gasly and Albon. Just perhaps not a qualifying specialist, but overall no worse than those drivers in that aspect either.

What Perez showed from a difficult position in his first race in Bahrain, the qualy lap in Imola, and his racepace in the first stint in Portimao, that already showed more quality than Gasly and Albon showed 90% of the time in that seat.

 

There's very little indication that Gasly would be able to do better than Perez or even better than he did the last time. It seems very much the case that he's simply able to perform a bit better at AT for various reasons.

 

I sort of agree, but sort of don't.

 

There without question are drivers who could beat Max on their day, maybe or maybe not over a season, but there is no reason the second driver should be regularly 0.5+ per lap off. Leclerc, Ricciardo, Norris, Sainz Jr etc are going to be there or there abouts. 

 

Now I don't expect Perez to regularly be this far off, but the idea that it should be accepted the second driver won't put a car that is equally best on at least the second row just isn't on.

 

I never really expected Perez to meet their Saturday expectations simply due to him not being an accomplished Saturday driver. 

Edited by RPM40, 09 May 2021 - 07:24.

[Victor]

He may not be a Saturday driver, but he is certainly not a Sunday driver. He is very fast and reliable. It has been a good choice by RB as we will find out in a few races time.

[Lights]

I sort of agree, but sort of don't.

 

There without question are drivers who could beat Max on their day, maybe or maybe not over a season, but there is no reason the second driver should be regularly 0.5+ per lap off. Leclerc, Ricciardo, Norris, Sainz Jr etc are going to be there or there abouts. 

 

Now I don't expect Perez to regularly be this far off, but the idea that it should be accepted the second driver won't put a car that is equally best on at least the second row just isn't on.

 

I never really expected Perez to meet their Saturday expectations simply due to him not being an accomplished Saturday driver. 

 

That's not really what I said or implied either. I mainly meant that for that 2nd Red Bull seat I don't see any candidate that can fulfill that 2nd driver role as good as Bottas can at Mercedes.

I agree that's normally not acceptable to not put that car on the 2nd row, but outliers happen. Perez wasn't feeling well yesterday so that should also be taken into account in this case.

The previous 2 weekends he qualified .144 behind and .052 in front of Verstappen. The person I was responding to was IMO very prematurely talking about rehiring Gasly.

 

Leclerc et al. would be there or there abouts, probably more consistently in qualy than Perez. But I did mention available drivers. None of those you mentioned realistically are, and some of them wouldn't even be interested.

So I was talking more realistically, that of the options Red Bull has and likely will have, I don't see any better options than Perez, and to talk about replacements now after 4 races is anyway premature.

 

Additionally, while Max and Lewis might show that the cars should be roughly equal, I keep having the feeling that if you would swap Perez and Bottas, Perez would perform better than Bottas.

Edited by Lights, 09 May 2021 - 08:51.

[yolo]

I keep having the feeling that if you would swap Perez and Bottas, Perez would perform better than Bottas.

You should try suppressing that feeling as it’s not supported by any facts or empirical evidence thus far this season.

Edited by yolo, 09 May 2021 - 09:23.

[w00dy]

You should try suppressing that feeling as it’s not supported by any facts or empirical evidence thus far this season.

 

It is more about potential improvement. Perez has some time with the new team. Currently Bottas has none. For him to grow, improve, he needs a new situation. Another team, maybe, but that would be less comfortable. Leading Merc after Hamilton retires? No one is talking about that.

 

Bottas 2.0, 3.0 is more like a Service Pack...

[rf90]

You should try suppressing that feeling as it’s not supported by any facts or empirical evidence thus far this season.

Come off it, a lot of poster's views aren't supported by facts, they are just the view they have. Have ALL of your posts been supported by facts?

I agree with Lights about Bottas. 'IMO' ! Perez would perform far better in a Merc than Bottas would in a Red Bull.

[Ali623]

You should try suppressing that feeling as it’s not supported by any facts or empirical evidence thus far this season.

 

I would say there's enough evidence to suggest this. Although I believe the Mercedes and Red Bull are very similar in performance so far this season, it's easy enough to make an argument, at least over the last few seasons, that the Mercedes is a more 'user-friendly' car than the Red Bull. Bottas was immediately on pace when he joined Mercedes back in 2017, and Russell was immediately on pace when he jumped in the car at short notice last season. Whereas we've got evidence now of three different drivers in the Red Bull struggling to get anywhere close to Max's pace thus far.

 

I'm convinced if you were to stick Bottas in the Red Bull this year, he would struggle in a similar way that Perez has so far. Whereas if you put Perez in this year's Mercedes, I believe he would be much more comfortable than he currently is in the Red Bull - despite the outright performance of both cars being very similar.   

[Laptom]

Hmmmm ..... Ocon might even be available for 2022, and has looked impressive so far this year. Max/Esteban would be a very interesting combo.

Ocon has no change against Max.

I think this is an one time flake of Peres, but if RB needs another driver, they should really look into Ricciardo again...

[ANF]

Today's F3 race is 5 minutes away.

[Joshrobins13]

I would say there's enough evidence to suggest this. Although I believe the Mercedes and Red Bull are very similar in performance so far this season, it's easy enough to make an argument, at least over the last few seasons, that the Mercedes is a more 'user-friendly' car than the Red Bull. Bottas was immediately on pace when he joined Mercedes back in 2017, and Russell was immediately on pace when he jumped in the car at short notice last season. Whereas we've got evidence now of three different drivers in the Red Bull struggling to get anywhere close to Max's pace thus far.

I'm convinced if you were to stick Bottas in the Red Bull this year, he would struggle in a similar way that Perez has so far. Whereas if you put Perez in this year's Mercedes, I believe he would be much more comfortable than he currently is in the Red Bull - despite the outright performance of both cars being very similar.

You ignore the evidence that the Red Bull looks like the more user friendly car this season. Mercedes are struggling to balance the car and Perez had the pace for Pole in only his 2nd race!

Bottas is a better Qualifier than people give him credit for. Perez would be nowhere near Lewis on a Saturday in this year's Merc. Nowhere near.

[jcbc3]

Hmmmm ..... Ocon might even be available for 2022, and has looked impressive so far this year. Max/Esteban would be a very interesting combo.

 

Brazil 2019 says hello:

 

[Ali623]

You ignore the evidence that the Red Bull looks like the more user friendly car this season. Mercedes are struggling to balance the car and Perez had the pace for Pole in only his 2nd race!
 

 

I'm not so sure, maybe in pre-season and possibly Bahrain, but every weekend since it looks like Mercedes hit the ground running on Fridays far better than Red Bull do. They seem to be able to achieve quick lap times more easily in my opinion.

[Augurk]

I'm not so sure, maybe in pre-season and possibly Bahrain, but every weekend since it looks like Mercedes hit the ground running on Fridays far better than Red Bull do. They seem to be able to achieve quick lap times more easily in my opinion.

I think the Mercedes is just slightly ahead of the Bulls at this point after finding their feet in Imola. 

[PlayboyRacer]

I think the Mercedes is just slightly ahead of the Bulls at this point after finding their feet in Imola.

I think it's actually impossible to tell right now. Basically seems to be a cigarette paper between both cars.

[Augurk]

I think it's actually impossible to tell right now. Basically seems to be a cigarette paper between both cars.

One look at the onboards tells a different story if you ask me. 

[Marklar]

I think it's obvious that Merc is the quicker race car since Imola (not by much though). Qualifying is a bit of a different matter still: Red Bull was quicker in Bahrain, Verstappen would have nicked pole in Portimao without going wide, both RB drivers almost nicked pole in Imola, yesterday Verstappen almost nicked pole (and was already quickest in Q2 with one attempt, so it wasnt just a lucky punch or miracle lap or whatever). Basically to determine who is quicker over one lap depends on how you rate the drivers over one lap at this point.

[PlayboyRacer]

One look at the onboards tells a different story if you ask me.

The qualifying and race results tell me what's important.

[yolo]

I would say there's enough evidence to suggest this. 

 

I'm convinced if you were to stick Bottas in the Red Bull this year, he would struggle in a similar way that Perez has so far. Whereas if you put Perez in this year's Mercedes, I believe he would be much more comfortable than he currently is in the Red Bull - despite the outright performance of both cars being very similar.   

 

No there isn't. Everything in your post is purely hypothetical based on your opinion of Merc's and RB's chassis and Perez and Bottas' qualities as drivers.

 

Based on results to date, Bottas so far this season has been pretty darn close to Hamilton in all respects bar wet weather, which to be fair, saw Perez struggle mightily as well. I'm a big Perez fan, but he really needs to up his game if he wants to play a part in the championship like (I'm sure) Red Bull were hoping he would upon signing him. He's no use to Red Bull if he always ends up out of position at the start whilst the top 3 just scamper away.

[SagemX]

I think it's obvious that Merc is the quicker race car since Imola (not by much though). Qualifying is a bit of a different matter still: Red Bull was quicker in Bahrain, Verstappen would have nicked pole in Portimao without going wide, both RB drivers almost nicked pole in Imola, yesterday Verstappen almost nicked pole (and was already quickest in Q2 with one attempt, so it wasnt just a lucky punch or miracle lap or whatever). Basically to determine who is quicker over one lap depends on how you rate the drivers over one lap at this point.

Where in an ideal world that's what you want, the cars that close in performance that it's dependent on the driver nailing a lap to get pole.

[Ali623]

No there isn't. Everything in your post is purely hypothetical based on your opinion of Merc's and RB's chassis and Perez and Bottas' qualities as drivers.

 

Based on results to date, Bottas so far this season has been pretty darn close to Hamilton in all respects bar wet weather, which to be fair, saw Perez struggle mightily as well. I'm a big Perez fan, but he really needs to up his game if he wants to play a part in the championship like (I'm sure) Red Bull were hoping he would upon signing him. He's no use to Red Bull if he always ends up out of position at the start whilst the top 3 just scamper away.

 

Well it's based on the fact three different drivers have massively struggled in the Red Bull, two of which are now known qualities in F1. Whereas two drivers have stepped into the Mercedes and had a far better time. 

 

Perez seems to be having a slightly better time than Gasly/Albon so far, but we're clearly seeing similar issues in getting performance out the car consistently. I'm sure Perez has even said so far the car is very unique to anything he's driven before and he could see why other drivers struggled.

[Ivanhoe]

The qualifying and race results tell me what's important.

How does that say anything about how the cars relatively compare? I agree btw that there’s not much between both cars, despite them being two completely different cars with different strengths and weaknesses. Question is whether the 37/1000 of a second is the cigarette paper between the cars or the driver. Looking at the onboards, both Lewis and Max made no visible mistakes in their Q3 lap.

Edited by Ivanhoe, 09 May 2021 - 10:54.

[P123]

You should try suppressing that feeling as it’s not supported by any facts or empirical evidence thus far this season.

 

Well, Perez is familiar with the Merc already.

 

But Perez/ Bottas.... one's main strength is in the races as opposed to qualifying, and the other is better at qualifying than he is in the races.  But so far this season Bottas has been a safer pair of hands in both. Perez does have more room to improve though.

[KevR]

Where in an ideal world that's what you want, the cars that close in performance that it's dependent on the driver nailing a lap to get pole.

They can be close but never identical in terms of pace. If Merc is 1 tenth ahead of RB, or the other way around, one of the drivers already holds and advantage, so it's not just his performance on 1 lap

[PlayboyRacer]

How does that say anything about how the cars relatively compare?

We can see from track to track how they compare, through the qualifying pace and race results. Which is important because things are most definetly swinging back and forth... at this stage. Both cars look like they'll have specific tracks where they are stronger/weaker at. Which is great for us but it blurs the overall competitive order between them, across the season. At least until one perhaps gains a lasting advantage. But I see absolutely no sign of that right now.

[yolo]

Well it's based on the fact three different drivers have massively struggled in the Red Bull, two of which are now known qualities in F1. Whereas two drivers have stepped into the Mercedes and had a far better time. 

 

Perez seems to be having a slightly better time than Gasly/Albon so far, but we're clearly seeing similar issues in getting performance out the car consistently. I'm sure Perez has even said so far the car is very unique to anything he's driven before and he could see why other drivers struggled.

 

Gasly probably couldn't cope with the pressure of driving for a top team, kind of a Fisichella syndrome. Albon, IMO, just wasn't cut for F1. 

 

Strangely Ricciardo didn't really seem to have much difficulty, and Perez seems to be doing fine overall on 1-lap. Perez just doesn't have the luxury of being miles off and still qualifying in the top 4. Bahrain and Spain qualifying have shown how tight the margins can be if track position or evolution goes against you.

[Arundo]

Brazil 2019 says hello:

https://www.youtube....hannel=FORMULA1

Lol yeah Esteban and Max dont mix. Maybe a Lando would be a good option.