337 replies to this topic

[midgrid]

I've enjoyed Formula E ever since it began, but I have to say that there's something about using the full Monaco circuit that is making this event feel more "real" than anything that has come before it.

[Kev00]

Evans had overconsumed energy to get into the lead.

Given that Evans and Da Costa were so evenly matched in qualifying, I don't think Da Costa would have been able to overtake if it wasn't for Evans running out of energy.

Part of the problem is that the safety car probably cost Evans the race. Yes, Evans overconsumed to take the lead, but without that safety car he could look to save that energy over the remaining 15 minutes. But because of the safety car he has to save that energy in the space of 6-7 minutes, so he’s just losing more time per lap. This kills any strategy to use more energy at different parts of the race. Just encouraging the cars to run at exactly the same levels as each other.

Not to mention it’s just a stupid concept to take away the use of energy that is still physically sitting in the car. As long as they start with the same amount they should be able to use it however they like

[balmybaldwin]

I stand by the energy reduction bringing them to the edge of disaster though, DaCosta and Evans crossed the line on 0%, Vergne on 0, Rowland on 0.1%.

There's no point finishing with any more than that long gone are the days of people finishing with 4-5% left.  Much the same as F1 have millilitres of fuel left over the minimum required.

[MattK9]

I stand by the energy reduction bringing them to the edge of disaster though, DaCosta and Evans crossed the line on 0%, Vergne on 0, Rowland on 0.1%.

Yes it did. That's a good thing in my book.

[Myrvold]

That helmet cam with 144p quality is hilarious eventhough it does give a greater speed sensation

 

I seems like the bottom half is obscured on purpose as well though. Probably to hide the steering wheel stuff?

[RSRally]

There's no point finishing with any more than that long gone are the days of people finishing with 4-5% left.  Much the same as F1 have millilitres of fuel left over the minimum required.

 

I guess what happened in Valencia makes me nervous. 0% surely means metres away from dsq, we don’t want to see any more of that.

[RSRally]

Part of the problem is that the safety car probably cost Evans the race. Yes, Evans overconsumed to take the lead, but without that safety car he could look to save that energy over the remaining 15 minutes. But because of the safety car he has to save that energy in the space of 6-7 minutes, so he’s just losing more time per lap.

 

Feeling they should make that ‘no energy reductions after 40mins’ rule 35mins.

[Victor_RO]

I guess what happened in Valencia makes me nervous. 0% surely means metres away from dsq, we don’t want to see any more of that.

 

Even in the previous 2 seasons I've seen a lot of people finishing (and winning) with 0.1-0.2% battery, even in non-SC/FCY-affected races. Teams+drivers with experience know now how to manage their energy right on the limit. I remember clearly Da Costa in Berlin last year, both his wins in the first 2 races were coasting across the line having run to 0.0% mere meters previously.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I am not a fan of FE, but this was really exciting.

F1 cars are too big, too heavy, and underpowered(in relation to the available grip).

[Peat]

I seems like the bottom half is obscured on purpose as well though. Probably to hide the steering wheel stuff?

 

correct. It's pixelated so they don't broadcast what's on the dash. 

Makes me think there is someone in the TV truck who sees the raw footage and is bribable..... 

[PayasYouRace]

I stand by the energy reduction bringing them to the edge of disaster though, DaCosta and Evans crossed the line on 0%, Vergne on 0, Rowland on 0.1%.

 

Colin Chapman would be proud. Was it not he who said that a perfect racing car would fail just as it crossed the line?

[M66R]

I've just rewatched the race this morning and my word was it a great race.

It was top drawer. Certainly top 5.

From a championship POV, six winners in seven races. First and third in the championship are yet to win a race this year. Insane closeness. All the talk of Mercedes walking away with it and they've only scored in six of fourteen chances.

I could wax lyrical about FE all day.

[Ben1445]

Seems like Prince Albert II of Monaco, FE and all the drivers are supportive of making this an annual event, rather than the current biennial arrangement. 
 
 https://the-race.com...me-annual-race/
 

"The Race can reveal that informal discussions have already begun on [making the race an annual event]."

"The Race understand that conversations between Formula E officials, the FIA and the Automobile Club de Monaco to explore the possibility of FE racing in Monaco every year were set to begin even before today’s spectacular race."

"Ultimately an annual Monaco FE race will come only via the granting of an event ahead of the Monaco F1 GP and will have to be sanctioned initially by the ACM.

Such a move is likely to have a degree of positive backing from HSH Prince Albert II of Monaco.He has attended every Monaco E-Prix and also established a special foundation to address environmental challenges.The Prince Albert II of Monaco Foundation promotes sustainable development globally and supports initiatives of public and private organisations in the fields of research and studies, technological innovation and socially-aware practices."

[PayasYouRace]

They're really hitting the big time now!

[cheekybru]

Just watched the replay (don't normally watch FE) but what a great race crowned by an awesome last lap overtake for the win by Da Costa

👍👍

[TheFish]

Why do they reduce the available energy so much? It seems mad to me that a criticism of electric cars is that they don’t have enough range and the FE rules respond to that by artificially restricting their range. Seems to be against the message that Electric cars are good.

[thegamer23]

Seems like Prince Albert II of Monaco, FE and all the drivers are supportive of making this an annual event, rather than the current biennial arrangement. 
 
 https://the-race.com...me-annual-race/
 

 

Bring it on!

Why not have Monaco Historic, Formula E & Formula 1 in the same month?

anyway

 

[BRG]

Why do they reduce the available energy so much? It seems mad to me that a criticism of electric cars is that they don’t have enough range and the FE rules respond to that by artificially restricting their range. Seems to be against the message that Electric cars are good.

It's madness as far as I am concerned too.  Start them all with the same amount of available energy and let them get on with it.  Keep a cap on the maximum that can be deployed at any one time, but otherwise let it rip.  Cars running our of juice sends ALL the wrong messages.

 

As it was, Evans had to roll over the line with effectively a dead engine losing places.

[Disgrace]

Why do they reduce the available energy so much? It seems mad to me that a criticism of electric cars is that they don’t have enough range and the FE rules respond to that by artificially restricting their range. Seems to be against the message that Electric cars are good.

 

Yeah, I believe this may need a rethink sooner rather than later. It is still a racing series, and we want to see performance, which would be more in line with how manufacturers currently market electric cars: as premium, performance vehicles.

[Ben1445]

Why do they reduce the available energy so much? It seems mad to me that a criticism of electric cars is that they don’t have enough range and the FE rules respond to that by artificially restricting their range. Seems to be against the message that Electric cars are good.

The rule was put in place because races where energy saving was required throughout the entire race were generally the most exciting and took the most skill to win. The rule is to make sure that the driver's skill at energy saving/team's powertrain efficiency was the real differentiator in who wins a race rather than random pot luck with safety cars.  

 

FE cars aren't running flat out qualifying laps in the race, they're a few seconds off that pace in order to keep the lap energy delta (net kWh/lap) low enough to run for the full 45 minutes. The kind of driving they have to do to make that energy delta lends itself to exciting racing because braking zones are long and variable - you can go and brake/lift late to make an overtake but in doing so you will use more energy which you will have to make up again later. Before the rule, in a race with safety car(s)  - of which there's a high chance at FE races -  the energy delta per lap towards the end of the race goes up, the cars run closer to qualifying pace and the racing became, well, less interesting really. 

 

With the 54kWh battery and an arbitrary lap length of one minute, the race would last 46 minutes/46 laps and the required energy delta per lap for full green flag running would be 1.17kWh/lap. All the rule does is attempt to keep that delta constant and thus the same driving techniques constant wether a safety car comes out or not. Another way of achieving the same effect would be adding 'stoppage time' or 'stoppage distance' onto the race, which arguably might make more logical sense and is something which is done in other sports.  

 

That said, the general rationale played out very well yesterday (unlike in *ahem* The Race That Shall Not Be Named). The overwhelming reaction after the race was how exciting it was to watch rather than what it means for Joe Bloggs on the road, and in many ways that was because of the rules designed to make the energy saving skill a required constant though the race.

Edited by Ben1445, 09 May 2021 - 11:12.

[thegamer23]

That was brave 

 

[f1paul]

Bring it on!

Why not have Monaco Historic, Formula E & Formula 1 in the same month?

anyway

 

The Month of Monaco

[Vielleicht]

Another way of achieving the same effect would be adding 'stoppage time' or 'stoppage distance' onto the race, which arguably might make more logical sense and is something which is done in other sports.

In theory at least, they could try and have the best of both worlds and follow the F2/F3 model (or F1s upcoming sprint qualifying trials) and have a Sprint Race and a Feature Race in which every race weekend is a double header and but the race on the first day is a 25 minute eSprint whilst the race on the second day is a 45 minute ePrix. Or something along those lines.

 

Ultimately underlines, for me at least, the need to have more EV series trying things out on race formats. Then we'll know for sure what works without compromising the only established EV single seater championship we have into playing a solo guinea pig role. Perhaps FE needs a junoir single-seater support series?

[SenorSjon]

If they had a lap count, the problem would be less. I really dislike timed races, though I understand why they are there.

The current system rewards everyone going slow at the start to prevent too much power being stripped in the end to be able to make up for it. Those convergence of tactics moments are usually when the race climaxes, but a late SC will strip that away.

Edited by SenorSjon, 09 May 2021 - 11:50.

[juicy sushi]

All this is really making me think FE (or any EV racing in all honesty) has a real opportunity to just focus on what makes a racing car spectacular to drive and best for racing.

Nimble, powerful, low grip formula cars make up solid wish list for many a racing fan and with good reason, yet few championships seem willing or able to pursue it.

If you ask me, FE should keep on heading in that direction and not be worrying about lap times. You could get to a level of power/grip which provides a great show/great racing, let that speak for itself, and then just use any further battery improvements to extend the race duration from there.

That feels very achievable after today.

I agree with this entirely. Street racing electric sprint cars is a great way to go. Add sexy looks and you have the right combination to make a go of it.

If you can feel like “THE FUTURE” while also putting on a barn-burner of a race then don’t change direction, double-down on it.

[juicy sushi]

I seems like the bottom half is obscured on purpose as well though. Probably to hide the steering wheel stuff?

Yeah, some teams do it better than others, but everyone clearly wants the display hidden. Driver’s Eye though, if able to be done in high resolution, is spectacular.

[DinocoBlue]

That was the best FE race I've ever seen.

 

Here's hoping they do make this a annual event.

[PayasYouRace]

The rule was put in place because races where energy saving was required throughout the entire race were generally the most exciting and took the most skill to win. The rule is to make sure that the driver's skill at energy saving/team's powertrain efficiency was the real differentiator in who wins a race rather than random pot luck with safety cars.  

 

FE cars aren't running flat out qualifying laps in the race, they're a few seconds off that pace in order to keep the lap energy delta (net kWh/lap) low enough to run for the full 45 minutes. The kind of driving they have to do to make that energy delta lends itself to exciting racing because braking zones are long and variable - you can go and brake/lift late to make an overtake but in doing so you will use more energy which you will have to make up again later. Before the rule, in a race with safety car(s)  - of which there's a high chance at FE races -  the energy delta per lap towards the end of the race goes up, the cars run closer to qualifying pace and the racing became, well, less interesting really. 

 

With the 54kWh battery and an arbitrary lap length of one minute, the race would last 46 minutes/46 laps and the required energy delta per lap for full green flag running would be 1.17kWh/lap. All the rule does is attempt to keep that delta constant and thus the same driving techniques constant wether a safety car comes out or not. Another way of achieving the same effect would be adding 'stoppage time' or 'stoppage distance' onto the race, which arguably might make more logical sense and is something which is done in other sports.  

 

That said, the general rationale played out very well yesterday (unlike in *ahem* The Race That Shall Not Be Named). The overwhelming reaction after the race was how exciting it was to watch rather than what it means for Joe Bloggs on the road, and in many ways that was because of the rules designed to make the energy saving skill a required constant though the race.

 

The thing is, it would make things a lot easier if they said "Here's the maximum amount of charge you can hold for the race, go for it." Why is there any need to adjust for a safety car. Why is it a problem if the cars can be driven a bit harder because they saved energy behind the safety car?

 

It's the same difference as between saying, "You may not put more than 100 kg of fuel in your car before the start" and "You may not use more than 100 kg of fuel during the race, but we'll adjust that amount depending on the safety car usage."

[BRG]

Exactly.  FE just seems to be wedded to these abstruse and Byzantine rules, as if they don't trust anyone to figure it all out for themselves. 

 

Another mystery is penalising drivers for regenerating too much.  WTF?  Why shouldn't you be able to regen as much as you want.  In fossil fuel racing, if you short shift and save fuel, you don't get a penalty, so why in EV racing is being frugal such a no-no?  Isn't maximising regen a positive thing?  So why are they so negative about it?  (sorry!)

Edited by BRG, 09 May 2021 - 22:10.

[Ben1445]

The thing is, it would make things a lot easier if they said "Here's the maximum amount of charge you can hold for the race, go for it." Why is there any need to adjust for a safety car. Why is it a problem if the cars can be driven a bit harder because they saved energy behind the safety car?

 

It's the same difference as between saying, "You may not put more than 100 kg of fuel in your car before the start" and "You may not use more than 100 kg of fuel during the race, but we'll adjust that amount depending on the safety car usage."

Well, the rule was a (very inelegantly implemented) reaction to the racing in the first year of Gen2 (Season 5 - 2018-19) when the energy rules were basically exactly what you describe there. 

 

Through that season it was generally felt to be the case that races where the drivers didn't have the benefit of a safety car to allow them to go flat out provided more interesting racing. Primarily, it leads to drivers choosing when to save and when to push (which we saw in action this weekend in Frijns and Da Costa trading places early on or in Mitch Evans going for the lead through Beau Rivage) rather than them all going flat out in somewhat more processional manner.

 

Another key point is that it stops a safety car from anti-climactically neutralising a really strategic energy saving battle which may have been brewing in the early stages of the race, such as when Mitch Evans went and used more energy to catch up and take the lead when he was still in Attack Mode and then having to defend the lead in the latter stages of the race when his rivals could cash in on their earlier energy saving. Without the energy reduction the final laps of the race wouldn't have been quite the sporting spectacle that they were. 

 

The bottom line is that the racing at Monaco was the way it was this weekend in large part because the energy reduction rule forces it to be that way. And because of that we have countless positive reactions rippling across forums, social media and word of mouth with people saying it was the best FE race they have ever seen or the best race at Monaco in years. Ultimately, that's the reason why they choose do it. 

 

 

P.S. This is mainly an explanation/defence of their rationale, not an awful lot more. There's plenty of room to debate and disagree. 

[Ben1445]

Another mystery is penalising drivers for regenerating too much.  WTF?  Why shouldn't you be able to regen as much as you want.  In fossil fuel racing, if you short shift and save fuel, you don't get a penalty, so why in EV racing is being frugal such a no-no?  Isn't maximising regen a positive thing?  So why are they so negative about it?  (sorry!)

I believe this is probably a safety/battery lifetime thing? As per requirements, the battery is designed to cope with up to 250kW of regen for a full season of racing. I'd guess that going beyond that takes it outside of the design operating window and could probably damage the battery or, in a worst case scenario, cause a failure event which could end up putting someone at risk.

 

I was hoping we would see permitted regen levels climb though the Gen2 era like we did with Gen1 and maybe start to up the race power or race distance in line with that. Slightly disappointingly though, that hasn't happened. It appears that they aren't willing or able to let them go beyond the 250kW limit on this battery. 

Edited by Ben1445, 09 May 2021 - 23:22.

[Calum]

That was brave 

 

 

 

In all my years watching coverage, I've never seen anyone in motorsport acknowledge that the Monaco pool water is salty. I only found out after doing a cannonball in a couple of years back! 

 

So nice to see the fact noted in that clip above! 

Edited by Calum, 09 May 2021 - 23:17.

[RSRally]

I was hoping we would see permitted regen levels climb though the Gen2 era like we did with Gen1 and maybe start to up the race power or race distance in line with that. Slightly disappointingly though, that hasn't happened. It appears that they aren't willing or able to let them go beyond the 250kW limit on this battery. 

 

Yes, that combined with no bodywork update has made it feel like Gen2 is dragging on a bit too long. IIRC though there were actually physical changes to the battery during Gen1 to allow them to do that.

[Ben1445]

Yes, that combined with no bodywork update has made it feel like Gen2 is dragging on a bit too long. IIRC though there were actually physical changes to the battery during Gen1 to allow them to do that.

Yeah, it kind of does to be honest. It's a shame we lost any performance benefits of Gen2 Evo to the pandemic. 

 

The Gen1 batteries did indeed get a 'refresh' between the second and third seasons which allowed them to reach higher regen rates. First two seasons were capped at 100kW, then seasons three and four were 150kW and 200kW respectively I believe. 

 

600kW still just sounds insane for Gen3. 

[JeePee]

Amazing,

 

Great that when comparing the FE race to F1 my first thought wasn't the speed difference, but how FE can find overtaking opportunities in places F1 could never dream of.

Most of the overtakes were because of Attack Mode, right? Even the final overtake for the win was because Da Costa had fanboost and Frijns had not.

[Ben1445]

Not to get too picky, but the final overtake for the win was because Evans had less usable energy than Da Costa

[MattK9]

Yeah, it kind of does to be honest. It's a shame we lost any performance benefits of Gen2 Evo to the pandemic. 

 

The Gen1 batteries did indeed get a 'refresh' between the second and third seasons which allowed them to reach higher regen rates. First two seasons were capped at 100kW, then seasons three and four were 150kW and 200kW respectively I believe. 

 

600kW still just sounds insane for Gen3. 

 

If you think that Gen3 will include front axle regen braking, then 600kW doesnt seem to insane. Currently 250 kW for the rear axle only so the new regs will be 300 kW regen per axle. When considering brake bias toward the front axle then it could be 350kW front axle, 250 rear axle. 

It is quite a large increase for the battery to deal with but hopefully the amount of energy that they can regen per lap will increase significantly.

[Ben1445]

If you think that Gen3 will include front axle regen braking, then 600kW doesnt seem to insane. Currently 250 kW for the rear axle only so the new regs will be 300 kW regen per axle. When considering brake bias toward the front axle then it could be 350kW front axle, 250 rear axle. 

It is quite a large increase for the battery to deal with but hopefully the amount of energy that they can regen per lap will increase significantly.

Should be 350kW rear and 250kW front if my memory serves me well. And yeah, in terms of MGUs it's not too insane. 

 

It's the fact that the main limiting factor in the battery that will be able to cope with that really