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CSI Archives, 1945 thru the 1960s


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#1 DCapps

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Posted 07 May 2021 - 16:01

For a number of reasons, I am interested in whether or not there are any archival materials regarding the meetings and their minutes/decisions of the CSI from the immediate postwar years and the AIACR to FIA name change, 1945/46, to the meetings up to 1965.

 

Although a few of the various periodicals of the time seemed to give reasonably decent summaries of the proceedings (even that would helpful given that these were the exception and not the rule), there seems to little to suggest that these records are available to researchers.

 

Much of what seems to exist in the existing Anglophone press/books tends to range from almost nonexistent or sketchy to the occasional report with some attempt for detail.

 

Rather the more often than not bleating and blathering by the Anglophone scribes when it came to the CSI and its work, I would like to know if there is a possible CSI "trove" of archival material to examine.

 

Motor Sport tends to be rather useless, of course.

 

I am attempting to trace the evolution of the Formule Internationale No. 1 regulations through to the 1961 formula era as well as the parallel evolution of the Championnat du Monde des Conducteurs to that period as well.

 

It seems that much of the contemporary and later Anglophone material in the press and the secondary sourced articles/books tend to leave much to be desired.

 

HDC



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#2 cooper997

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 02:50

Don, it will take someone with better googling skills than me to find the online rabbit hole you seek. But I've just scratched through numerous files I have transcribed with reference to CSI / FIA.

 

Some will be of no interest or be of your 'bleating and blathering' reference. But on the other hand some may give you a reference point in your searches. If there's anything that takes your attention then note it here and I will try to dig it out. But ideally don't say "all of them." As it's turned into a bit of a list. 

 

 

Stephen

 

 

 

Sept/Oct 50 Iota

500 Club News – FIII problems with CSI? p20 

 

Dec 8, 1950 Autosport

Pit and paddock – FIA granted 16 endurance records to Austin p482

 

Jan 51 Iota

Megaphone – FIA on what is, and what isn’t a supercharger: RAC consulting on FIII becoming new FII formula p8/9

 

Oct 52 Iota

PP – CSI has confirmed current FI will continue to 31/12/53 p9

 

24/10/52 The Autocar

The Sport by John A Cooper - new FIA regs for F1 effective 1/1/54;  FIA rally dates – Monte, RAC etc; p1412

 

23/12/53 The Motor

The sporting side – 9/12/53 CSI meeting p790

 

 

Oct 54 Motor Racing.

Drivers Graded (CSI) p358

 

 

1956 The Motor Yearbook

Federation Internationale De L’Automobile (FIA) information p231

 

 

Nov 57 Motor Racing

The future as planned by the CSI p332

 

 

Nov/Dec 58 BARC

Commentary – CSI 1961 F1 formula & RAC presentation to Charles Cooper, etc p207

JC & ACBC favour 3 litre & JC on safety p209

As I see it – SCH Davis – on CSI 1.5 litres, etc p227 

Items of interest – CSI Decisions & Jean Behra fined 229

 

Dec 58 Motor Racing

The FIA and rallying p428

 

10/4/59 The Autocar

The Sport – 9 & 10/3/59 CSI meeting; RAC called meeting after Monte, Formula Junior in GB p569

Italy’s Formula Junior FIA approval p571

 

 

Jul 59 Motor Racing

Editorial – Code or Cod. FIA met in Rome 10 days before Dutch GP on 1 ½ litre F1 formula p217

 

July 59 Sporting Motorist

Sport report – International Sporting Code – CSI p146

 

Jan/Feb 60 BARC

Commentary – Moss and the CSI – criticises them; Stirling’s plans – Moss takes a USA based FIA license which meant he wasn’t eligible for UK national events p7

 

March 60 Cars Illustrated

Stirling Moss v FIA interview p326 

 

Apr 29, 1960 Autosport

Editorial – FIA stands firm on Formula – 1.5litre GP stays p563

 

May 60 Sports Car World (Aust)

Why I loath the FIA - Stirling Moss p8

 

July 60 Motor Sport

DSJ report mentions FIA breaking their own rule on 2 week intervals

 

Sept/Oct 60 BARC

Asked and Answered #2 – M Agustin Perouse CSI p194

 

26/10/60 The Motor

The Sporting Side by P Turner – New CSI rules for F1 in 1961 and Intercontinental; p532

 

Nov 60 Motor Racing  

CSI Paris decisions p394

 

30/12/60 The Autocar

The Sport by Garnier – CSI Graded F1 drivers list – 22 in 1960; 35 for 1961 p1118

 

1961 The Motor Formula Junior Competition Cars booklet

FIA Regs p4

 

January 61 On the GRID

Why FIA 1 ½ litre 1961 racing will be fast and interesting by Johnny Lurani p24

 

22/9/61 The Autocar
The sport CSI decisions at Monza p458/459

 

27/10/61 The Autocar 

The Sport – Armstong 500 on again with FIA recognition p749

 

Nov 61 Motor Racing

CSI (FIA) feature p406

 

Mar 62 Motor Racing   

PP – FIA Grade A drivers – 37 listed p82

 

April 62 Today’s Motor Sports

FIA Auto Racing calendar p26 / 27

 

23/5/62 The Motor

The Sporting Side by P A Turner – FIA conference decides 1963 GP dates p644

 

June 62 Car & Driver

The FIA in the USA p14

 

July 62 SCW (Aust)

Scarab killed off by FIA by Kable p

 

March 63 Motor Rally

In brief Ford fined £500 by RAC Tribunal for breaking FIA requirements during their London to Cape Town Cortina run p76

 

WE 9/5/64 Motor

Sporting Side by Turner – CSI Homologation – 970 & 1275 Cooper S and 998 Cooper pE19

 

Apr 68 Motor Racing

John Aley – Escort twin cam failed to be homologated at recent FIA meeting p31



#3 DCapps

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Posted 09 May 2021 - 17:01

Stephen, my thanks as always for digging into things. Some of these I have managed to ferret out while a number of the others I certainly appreciate your finding them and bringing them to my attention.

 

As you point out, one can develop a number of references points for this topic, but then there is the issue of substance, of course.

 

At this point, I have created a rather extensive listing just from the materials that I either have at hand or access to. Lots of bits and pieces and the usual trivia, naturally, but generally not much on the CSI itself.

 

At the IMRRC, there are a number of CSI publications, but, interestingly enough, few of them contain such minor items as the formula or championship regulations prior to the advent of the Yellow Books in 1968.

 

As you correctly point out, there is stuff floating around out there, some in the ether and more of it on the pages of various periodicals or books.

 

Perhaps what puzzles me is that for many years now I have been puzzled/fascinated/annoyed that so little seems to have been/be devoted to the governance of motor sport; "race politics" seems to be the most toxic of toxic topics.

 

As hapless and hopeless as the CSI may have been, which seems to be a very common perception in just about all the English language material, most of what one uncovers is usually second or third-hand.

 

Among the very few places one finds, for instance, the actual F1 and WDC regulations for the 1961/65 period is Garnier's 16 on the Grid.

 

That is what I am trying to sort out, generally. I am still trying to nail down just when the announcement was made regarding the change stating that the minimum weight was reduced from 500kg to 450kg, for instance.

 

It is that sort of thing that I am curious about.

 

That the British racing establishment acted like a bunch of arrogant twits regarding the 1961/65 regulations for several years tends to somewhat color their coverage and discussions of the same.

 

Generally, I am trying to conduct a review of the literature so as to develop the context for the October 1958 announcement by the CSI -- when The Continentals deliberately snubbed Britain in its moment of Glory -- and so on to a review of the 1961 season.

 

(I mean, that there is still some discussion and doubt as to whether the CSI implemented the Formule Internationale No. 1 in 1947 or 1948 does not inspire confidence...)

 

HDC



#4 cooper997

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 05:10

Don, you don't like doing things by half! Hopefully some of the smarter operators (than me) around TNF will share their wisdom with you on where to delve.

 

Meantime weight-wise work back from this 26/10/60 The Motor, Philip Turner offering. Where he complicates matters 60 years after the fact by simply using the reference of 'recently' - see second point, first column.

 

1960-The-Motor-26-10-issue-PA-Turner.jpg

 

I assume you may have checked 1960/61 Automobile Year p121-123? Some of the matters are discussed, although not exactly dated (other than reference to the September Monza CSI meeting).

 

 

Stephen

 



#5 DCapps

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 12:58

Stephen,

 

Thanks, I managed to miss this one.

 

Yes, this is exactly the sort of problem that I am encountering: items providing tidbits, if you will, from CSI meetings, but otherwise little specificity.

 

While much of this is rather helpful, of course, it tends to be both second-hand and often short of those specifics we would like to have.

 

Turner, Garnier, etc., etc., can often be quite useful for getting a good sensing of the Zeitgeist, but in a pointillist sort of way, if you will.

 

I am somewhat handicapped at the moment from possibly accessing some of this material due to travel being a challenge at the moment which is not helping.

 

I still find myself amazed at just how little real attention is devoted to the governance of motor sport, whether it is on either side of the Atlantic or elsewhere until fairly recently, any interest probably thanks to the FIASCO War and the CART/USAC & etc. Splits.

 

Basically, what my query reflects is simply a combination of the sort of pent up curiosity and parallel frustration that plagues historians delving into their research files/discussion papers and finding them quite wanting.



#6 a_tifoosi

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Posted 10 May 2021 - 14:55

Not sure whether this might help, but in A History of Organizational Change. The case of Fédération Internationale de l’Automobile (FIA), 1946–2020, Hans Erik Næss writes (p. 278):

 

This book is based on a number of data sources available in either English, Norwegian, French, or German (...) The first data source is the FIA archives. These contain minutes, reports, and annexes from its general assemblies, committee meetings, council summits, and other official FIA member gatherings. Most of this archive, which is partly stored in French, partly in English, was made digitally available to me by FIA seniors after I presented the project.

 

(...)

 

The second data source is secondary sources. Because the FIA archives from 2001 and onwards are confidential, other sources were explored to throw light on various aspects of the organisation’s development.

 

Unfortunately it doesn't specify the dates, but apparently this 'FIA archive' might contain information prior to 2001.

 

If necessary, the author can be contacted via email.

 

Narcís.


Edited by a_tifoosi, 10 May 2021 - 14:58.


#7 DCapps

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Posted 11 May 2021 - 12:40

Thank you, I managed to miss this one when looking for the available literature on the topic.

 

Not that there is all that much, of course...

 

HDC



#8 john winfield

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 14:22

Don, one addition to Stephen's list of articles and references:

 

Autocar   29th November 1963   'Formula One Bombshell - CSI President Baumgartner puts forward his suggestions for a Fuel Consumption formula'.

 

HM (Harry Mundy, I assume) analyses in some detail the proposals, '...based on a paper presented by Professor Eberan von Eberhorst at a meeting of the Commission Technique of the CSI held in Paris on 7 October'.

 

The outcome of the main CSI meeting (28/29 Nov?) was not known when this issue of Autocar went to press. Perhaps later issues report on developments.



#9 DCapps

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 16:25

John,

 

Thank you, as always.

 

I have managed to get a relatively decent handle on that whole shift towards the 1966+ era, although I certainly would need to go back through and sort and sift more closely.

 

What is staring at me are the obvious gaps in how the coverage in the British motor sport periodicals reacted and covered The Change.

 

What is quite obvious to even the relatively untrained eye in a rather presentistic sort of way is the usual confluence of the technical regulations of the international racing formula and those of the drivers' championship by the British -- also by extension, of course -- and the US motor racing press. Not that the other European motor racing scribes were innocent of this faux pas by a long shot. Needless to suggest, this tends to muddle things quite a bit.

 

The racing gossip columns in Autosport, The Autocar, and Motor tend to be the sort of places similar to the streams in the Yukon where if you pan long enough you will find enough nuggets of gold to help form the context and even connect dots.

 

Then there is the issue of the focus tending to be rather heavily upon the artifacts of the period, the cars, along with usual hagiography regarding the various personalities involved with those artifacts.

 

Other than the usual muttering or groaning, not so much on the infrastructure of the sport at the time.

 

Re-reading what Gregor Grant wrote for Autosport in early November 1958, one begins to sense the connections from then to the FIASCO War and Beyond (including, dare I mention it aloud, BREXIT).

 

"Remember, Remember the 29th of October..." is something that I thought of long, long ago, but for various reasons I never quite got around to following up upon it as intended.

 

Then, serendipity intervened, of course, when I came across my ancient RVM material regarding the 1961 season which then started me thinking about it once again...



#10 Jhdrussell

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 11:08

John,

 

Thank you, as always.

 

I have managed to get a relatively decent handle on that whole shift towards the 1966+ era, although I certainly would need to go back through and sort and sift more closely.

 

What is staring at me are the obvious gaps in how the coverage in the British motor sport periodicals reacted and covered The Change.

 

What is quite obvious to even the relatively untrained eye in a rather presentistic sort of way is the usual confluence of the technical regulations of the international racing formula and those of the drivers' championship by the British -- also by extension, of course -- and the US motor racing press. Not that the other European motor racing scribes were innocent of this faux pas by a long shot. Needless to suggest, this tends to muddle things quite a bit.

 

The racing gossip columns in Autosport, The Autocar, and Motor tend to be the sort of places similar to the streams in the Yukon where if you pan long enough you will find enough nuggets of gold to help form the context and even connect dots.

 

Then there is the issue of the focus tending to be rather heavily upon the artifacts of the period, the cars, along with usual hagiography regarding the various personalities involved with those artifacts.

 

Other than the usual muttering or groaning, not so much on the infrastructure of the sport at the time.

 

Re-reading what Gregor Grant wrote for Autosport in early November 1958, one begins to sense the connections from then to the FIASCO War and Beyond (including, dare I mention it aloud, BREXIT).

 

"Remember, Remember the 29th of October..." is something that I thought of long, long ago, but for various reasons I never quite got around to following up upon it as intended.

 

Then, serendipity intervened, of course, when I came across my ancient RVM material regarding the 1961 season which then started me thinking about it once again...

Despite having read your post (and the ones which preceded it) a number of times, I have to say I have little idea what you are saying, or what your substantive points are :confused: .

 

I am a native English speaker of 60+ years, qualified to degree level and the holder of a statutorily recognised professional qualification.

So, either your arguments are 'over my head' and too complex for me to understand, or you are not communicating them very well.

 

Or maybe H C Andersen's 'Kejserens nye klæder' is relevant here?

 

Puzzling.....



#11 DCapps

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Posted 14 May 2021 - 17:21

I am similarly puzzled, only at your response; but, rather than using your posting as an opportunity to insult, sneer, and taunt, you could have simply asked...



#12 cooper997

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Posted 15 May 2021 - 06:27

Don, one addition to Stephen's list of articles and references:

 

Autocar   29th November 1963   'Formula One Bombshell - CSI President Baumgartner puts forward his suggestions for a Fuel Consumption formula'.

 

HM (Harry Mundy, I assume) analyses in some detail the proposals, '...based on a paper presented by Professor Eberan von Eberhorst at a meeting of the Commission Technique of the CSI held in Paris on 7 October'.

 

The outcome of the main CSI meeting (28/29 Nov?) was not known when this issue of Autocar went to press. Perhaps later issues report on developments.

 

Taking John's lead (and despite having some missing issues in the date region quoted), there's 2 Harry Mundy features to be found in 2 of the December 1963 Autocars.

13/12/63 has 'Preliminary Assessment' p1166 and mentions there's to be more detailed analysis in the 27/12/63 issue. That feature's called 'Blown or Unblown' over 5 pages with various mathematical equations on use of various cylinder configurations and cutaway drawings based on supercharged 1.5 engines (some relate to BRM V16 and Alfa Romeo 159).

 

 

Stephen



#13 DCapps

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Posted 15 May 2021 - 17:54

Stephen,

 

Thank you for your great help on this. Very much appreciated.

 

Alas, however, I am putting this aside -- along with what I was doing on the Maserati Tipo 250F -- thanks to the problem of life being too much short to have so many projects underway given that I finally have access to a true treasure trove of material relating to my early US motor sport history project. I had hit a something of dead end for a time due to being unable to find a way to access the material and then it almost literally feel out of the sky -- finally!

 

HDC



#14 cooper997

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 05:18

Don, fully understand how the arrival of new information leads you back to that project. However, this thread can still remain a going concern as and when any CSI / FIA information comes to light.

 

Good luck with your early US motor sport project.

 

 

Stephen



#15 DCapps

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 18:04

Stephen,

 

Many years ago, when I was still writing the Rear View Mirror column for The Atlas F1 Journal, I did a series on the 1961 Grand Prix season. I subtitled it: "Britain Sees Red," for obvious reasons. It was not until some time after I completed the series that I finally came across a copy of what Gregor Grant wrote in the 7 November 1958 issue of Autosport. As a result, I intended to go back and revisit the period from 1958 to 1965 in GP racing, as well placing it within the larger motor sport context. Obviously, I never got around to doing that. What I especially wished to consider after thinking about it some more, was the postwar role in GP racing with 1958 being the pivotal year, of course, which I put in my research notes. Recently, during my working on the Maserati thing, I came across the folders and took another look at them.

 

I now had what Gregor Grant had written after the announcement was made regarding the new 1961-1963 F1 regulations. I also had the work I had done on the FIASCO War. I also noted that over the years that relatively little still seemed to have been regarding much about the CSI and its operations -- billions of hours seemed to be devoted to obsessing over the minutest technical/mechanical detail on a car or the record/career of various racing personalities, but essentially nanoseconds in comparison to the CSI and its role in the sport.

 

This made me curious as to just how the motor sport press -- English language and otherwise -- covered the CSI and its operations/announcements during the postwar period, especially the years that I was interested in.

 

Given the rather visceral, arrogant, and quite xenophobic -- not to mention being truly nasty -- reaction to the 29 October 1958 announcement of the new formula at the dinner and awards presentation at the posh RAC for Hawthorn and Vandervell (Vanwall) (hence, "Remember, Remember, the 29th of October..." for the unaware...), I was simply curious as to how that continued to play out until 1961 finally arrived, in both the British and the French/German/Italian/etc. motor sport press. Given what I had managed to collect, the general smug arrogance (along with an often potent dose of real nastiness and literally insular xenophobia) of the British press seemed to tend to reflect that of the British Racing Establishment (Inter-Continental Formula, boycott of the 1960 Italian GP at Monza, etc., etc.).

 

Which, once one took the proverbial step back back, seems to have become embedded within the basic British view of GP/F1 -- if not motor sport in general. The offense taken in October 1958 seems to still be at work in some fashion. Poor M. Perourse, the president of the CSI, seems to have been fortunate to escape with his life, somehow avoiding without being hoisted by one of the velvet ropes from a chandelier.

 

While one is certainly free to disagree with that very preliminary and still very much evolving interpretation of all this, one should note that there tends to be a rather Aristotelian view of motor sport -- and its history -- among those residing on what Orwell referred to as Airstrip One.

 

Just saying...

 

If this causes a few bowels to become uproarious, so be it. Nor, should I hasten to add, does it apply to all those who dwell upon Airstrip One, of course.

 

At any rate, this is certainly a topic that deserves far more attention than it has received, but we shall see.

 

I did order the FIA book, by the way, it being useful for another project, one that I expect will be passed to another.

 

So, I shall go back to my early US racing opus, very happily now, given that my patience has finally seen some reward at long last. At least I now have something that helps connect more of the dots as well as point to new dots.

 

HDC



#16 DCapps

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Posted 16 May 2021 - 18:07

By the way, here is what Gregor Grant wrote for the 7 November 1958 issue of Autosport if you have not read it before:

 

When the guests went to the R.A.C. on 29th October for the presentations to world champion Mike Hawthorn, and constructors Tony Vandervell and Charles Cooper, little did they know that a bombshell was to be dropped which threatens to blow Grand Prix racing right out of the circuits altogether. The decision of a group of men, who appear to be completely out of touch with motor racing, is that from January 1961, Formula 1 will be limited to un-supercharged engines of not more than 1,500cc, not weighing less than 500kgs.

 

In order to arrive at this ridiculous decision, members of the Commission Sportive Internationale deliberated many hours, calling in drivers such as Maurice Trintignant, Mike Hawthorn and Stirling Moss, and constructors Tony Vandervell and John Cooper. The advice of these experts was completely disregarded and, owning to the support of delegates from countries which neither build nor organise formula races, the proposal to make it a 1.5-litre formula was adopted.

 

When Pat Gregory, the RAC press officer, made the announcement on behalf of CSI president M. Perouse, it was greeted with a storm of jeers and catcalls. Normally staid gentlemen reddened with anger, the Italian delegate, Count Lurani, shouted: “This was certainly not supported by the Italians!”

 

The scenes that followed have never been witnessed within the august portals of the Royal Automobile Club. A gesticulating crowd surrounded M. Perouse, bombarding him with questions. Chaos reigned: the president tried to answer as best he could, but eventually the meeting broke up in disorder.

 

Racing drivers such as Hawthorn, Moss, Roy Salvadori, Jack Brabham and Graham Hill were shocked to the core: entrants Vandervell, Cooper, Colin Chapman and Rob Walker could scarcely believe that such an outrageous thing had happened; press representatives wholeheartedly agreed that it spelled the end of Grand Prix racing as a spectacle.

 

There is a story going round that a camel is a horse designed by the FIA. Few will disagree that this sums up the position entirely. It is difficult to envisage anyone other than lorry manufacturers attempting to construct a type of machine which bears no relation to a Grand Prix car.

 

There would certainly be no lack of drivers for a “1500” weighing over half a ton, but none of the star men would think it worth their while to exert their skills in machines which cannot possibly be made to go faster than a present-day F2 Cooper (pictured below at the 1958 German GP, with Bruce McLaren at the wheel) or Lotus.

 

The crowds which flock to the grandes epreuves will never come to watch the pathetic sight of small-capacity machines dragging along totally unnecessary weight at speeds which are likely to be exceeded by GT cars of even smaller engine capacity. Not only that, but the things have to be equipped with starter motors and roll bars.

 

It is incredible that, in this day and age, a minority should be controlled by a minority. Wilfrid Andrews, during the presentations, stated that the CSI would doubtless have made their deliberations in a democratic way. Well, then, if this is democracy…I ask you?

 

Earl Howe and the members of the RAC Competitions Committee did not agree one whit with the new formula, but Great Britain possesses only one vote, exactly the same as more less disinterested delegates whose countries contribute absolutely nothing to motor sport. That France, a country without a single decent racing car, and nothing in the way of sportscars, should be able to influence the CSI owing to the support of non-racing countries, is a complete and utter disgrace.

 

There is, however, one ray of hope. It is proposed that for races between USA and Europe, a three-litre limit should be adopted. If France refuses to have anything other than 1,500cc Grands Prix, then that country should be ignored altogether, leaving other countries to organise events to the three-litre formula.

 

This would have tremendous repercussions in France generally. Even sportscar manufacturers would tend to support the GP people, and the classis events such as Le Mans might disappear altogether, for who in the right mind would go to the Sarthe to watch a flock of blue-painted “tiddlers” circulating?

 

It is obvious that the delegates who supported the decision cannot regard Grand Prix racing in its true perspective. It is the highest form of automotive engineering possible, and with powerful, fast cars, produces the greatest spectacle in modern sport. It offers a challenge to the skill and ingenuity of designers and constructors, who could possibly overcome the restrictions set by the 1961 formula, but would be woefully handicapped by producing machines which no one would wish to watch racing.

 

As regards to the actual conference, a letter was read from Enzo Ferrari, expressing his regrets at being unable to attend. He did, however, send a rather lengthy letter setting out his proposals, amongst which were that GP cars should, as well as sports cars, run on 96/100 octane fuel, as available from pumps. He did not favour a 1,500cc formula, but might support a two-litre one – a limit which he thought might also be applicable to sports cars in the world championship series.