74 replies to this topic

[JacnGille]

[Gary Davies]

This thread has, quite justifiably, been something of a tribute thread for Lewis. 

 

I'm of the school that says you can't say whether, Nuvolari was better than Fangio, Moss, Clark, Senna etc etc. But surely Lewis is in the pantheon of greats.

 

Which, I think, puts the efforts of Valtteri Bottas in a clearer context. Team mates of the likes of Hamilton and Verstappen don't half get a kicking from fans in these hypercritical days. Talk about a job with good aspects. And bad... 

 

I think, while we're celebrating Hamilton, a nod in the direction of Jenson Button and Nico Rosberg is not inappropriate. They were both very worthy team mates. Sure, Lewis may not have been quite the monster he now is when they were in the next garage, but they ran him close, and bettered him on several occasions.

[gillesfan76]

The bizarre thing is I think he's an even better racing driver than a qualifier. I rate his Sunday speed and Sunday dicing with other cars ability, higher than his Saturday speed, even if he's still really good at making sure he gets a good lap in.

So well done Lewis I guess.

 

 

During Hamilton's run to 100 Poles, his teammates have gathered 50 Poles between them, so the cars he has driven have achieved 150 Poles, as good as Lewis is, no other driver has had such fast cars.

 

I was surprised looking back how many Nico got during their 4 years together, 29 to Hamilton's 35, and Lewis has taken another 39 since then, Bottas has gotten quite a few as well at 17, but it would be interesting to see how many Nico would have if he had stayed on, I think he would be around Senna or Schumacher numbers by now and as good as Nico is, I don't think he gets 29 Poles alongside a Senna or prime Schumacher.

 

Schumacher's teammates got 14 Poles to Michael 68 and Senna's teammates have achieved 9 Poles to Ayrtons 65.

 

So as good a qualifier as Lewis is and has been, I don't think he is as quick as Schumacher or Senna over one lap but his race pace is exceptional and while I think he is stronger over a race distance than Senna, I don't think he is as strong as Schumacher over a Grand Prix.  

 

But that is my opinion, Lewis has the records and you can't take those away from him.

 

 

 

@F1

“I’ve never really been a driver that sticks it on pole”

@LewisHamilton speaking after claiming his first pole position back in 2007 

#F1

https://twitter.com/...3933592583?s=21

 

 

I’m of a similar opinion too. Having started watching him from F3 days, even in GP2 in 2006 when he won the championship he only got 1 pole in 21 races. But he won because he was overwhelmingly the most consistent driver and as Turkey that year showed, ridiculous quick in the race.

 

I think a large part of this is that he’s very much a seat of the pants driver, while also relying on his natural talent rather than car setup. Which works in the race because the conditions are changing every lap and seat of the pants, and adaptability is key, where the tyres are wearing each lap, the track is rubbering in, wind is changing, fuel is coming down. But for qualifying, the drivers that fine tune the car to perfection like Vettel and Rosberg are strong in qualifying. Vettel famously used to close his eyes and visualise the lap before his final Q3 lap. With the modern data era, these drivers beautifully utilised it to their advantage. While I think Lewis was initially a bit slow to do that but seems to have gotten much better with this.

 

Even so, I still think he often leaves a bit on the table in qualifying. It’s interesting to compare the risk vs reward scenario between Valtteri and Lewis. Valtteri is strong in qualifying but weak in the race. While Lewis qualifies well, but is even stronger in the race. We treat these things independently but in my opinion they are a function of the other. Valtteri needs to qualify strongly because he knows his race pace and wheel to wheel isn’t great. So if he qualifies P2 or P3, and doesn’t get a much better start than the others, then he’s likely to finish P2 or P3. This motivates him to take that bit more risk in qualifying. While Lewis knows that his race pace and overtaking is strong. So there is less motivation for him to risk more to qualify ahead. Because he knows that while the race becomes more difficult in P2 or P3, it’s not impossible for him. He can make up places.

 

This to me is very clear when we saw him paired up with Rosberg and Valtteri, in those years where it was just a Mercedes team mate competition. In 2014 Rosberg qualified ahead in more races than not, yet Lewis overhauled him after starting behind in more races than not. Similarly with Valtteri, Lewis knows he can get past him in the race. But in 2017, 2018 Lewis knew that at especially some tracks it wasn’t going to be easy to get him in the race (though having said that, he often put manners on Seb in wheel to wheel). This year with Max it’s going to be interesting because Max has strong race pace and is a weapon in defending so Lewis will probably have to take more risk in qualifying. It will depend on the situation though. If Valtteri is strong in qualifying, then Lewis has team strategy on his side and he can afford to take less risk.

 

So when taking the whole picture into account, and viewing qualifying in terms of risk vs reward, it puts things in perspective. When I watch Singapore 2018, it was a magical lap and I found myself forgetting to breathe several times watching that lap. Lewis had that car four wheel micro sliding, all while putting in micro corrections and keeping the throttle in, the whole way around. You watch that and you think if a driver can do that, has that much ability, why doesn’t he simply access that level every Saturday? Because the risk is immense. Watching that lap, I think Lewis may have left a tenth in at the very most over the entire lap. In almost every corner, he was at the absolute limit, and clearly he had the car in the right setup and was mentally in the zone but the risk was still huge. With walls just inches away, the tiniest discrepancy between estimation of grip vs reality and qualifying is over and race is starting from the back of the grid. But Singapore is not a track that is easy to overtake on, and for whatever reason he decided that he felt confident in the car and himself that day to take the risk and access the very edges of his ability. The outcome worked out, but the risk was still high.

 

But I think more often than not, Lewis is a driver that leaves something on the table on Saturdays because he has the additional ability to compensate on Sundays.

[Flasheart]

Phenomenal achievement. Can’t say I’ve ever been his biggest fan, but I admire what he has achieved. Congratulations!

When he left McLaren for Mercedes, I wrote a comment on James Allen’s website saying he’d just thrown his career down the toilet. I said he’d never win another championship, and likely not many races. I didn’t say anything about pole positions though. 😂😂
I don’t make predictions any more...

Edited by Flasheart, 09 May 2021 - 06:32.

[gillesfan76]

Phenomenal achievement. Can’t say I’ve ever been his biggest fan, but I admire what he has achieved. Congratulations!

When he left McLaren for Mercedes, I wrote a comment on James Allen’s website saying he’d just thrown his career down the toilet. I said he’d never won another championship, and likely not many races. I didn’t say anything about pole positions though.
I don’t make predictions any more...

 

Hats off to you for accepting you were wrong. You weren’t the only one. Many people, including fans, pundits, most thought that the risk wasn’t worth it. Leaving a powerhouse like McLaren for a team that was mid-field at best. Fortunate yes, but it wasn’t a complete guess either I suspect. We know some of what Brawn and Lauda discussed with him before his move but I suspect that there was a lot more and ultimately the decision was his. He took the risk, deserves the success.

[femi]

We are going to look back and be grateful to have witnessed this man's driving and this particular achievement. Not sure how often this will be repeated, seldom  I guess.

[Maximilyan]

King Lewis 💯

[lewislorenzo]

Incredible achievement!

[MJB5990]

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=9dTNzPk13ys

Some amazing qualifying laps in there. I'm not sure if over the years Hamilton has become more precise, but the laps in his McLaren days somehow looked more 'on the limit' with him hustling the cars and making a lot more small corrections. He may have just matured into a more complete driver, or it could be the longer cars with far more weight and downforce.

I think it's down to the Pirelli rubber. The Bridgestone tyres would work with the hustle much better, whereas the Pirelli's would overheat and so Lewis has adapted, becoming much calmer and smoother with his inputs.

[monolulu]

There are 2, not so perfect, pole laps that I’ll always remember. Ones that were on or even over the ragged edge & full of emotion. Silverstone 2018 where Ferrari was so fast. Lewis couldn’t stop shaking when he got out of the car showing how much it meant to him. Then there’s Monaco 2019 so much emotion with the lost of Niki, no one was going to deny Lewis pole. 

[noikeee]

I’m of a similar opinion too. Having started watching him from F3 days, even in GP2 in 2006 when he won the championship he only got 1 pole in 21 races. But he won because he was overwhelmingly the most consistent driver and as Turkey that year showed, ridiculous quick in the race.

I think a large part of this is that he’s very much a seat of the pants driver, while also relying on his natural talent rather than car setup. Which works in the race because the conditions are changing every lap and seat of the pants, and adaptability is key, where the tyres are wearing each lap, the track is rubbering in, wind is changing, fuel is coming down. But for qualifying, the drivers that fine tune the car to perfection like Vettel and Rosberg are strong in qualifying. Vettel famously used to close his eyes and visualise the lap before his final Q3 lap. With the modern data era, these drivers beautifully utilised it to their advantage. While I think Lewis was initially a bit slow to do that but seems to have gotten much better with this.

Even so, I still think he often leaves a bit on the table in qualifying. It’s interesting to compare the risk vs reward scenario between Valtteri and Lewis. Valtteri is strong in qualifying but weak in the race. While Lewis qualifies well, but is even stronger in the race. We treat these things independently but in my opinion they are a function of the other. Valtteri needs to qualify strongly because he knows his race pace and wheel to wheel isn’t great. So if he qualifies P2 or P3, and doesn’t get a much better start than the others, then he’s likely to finish P2 or P3. This motivates him to take that bit more risk in qualifying. While Lewis knows that his race pace and overtaking is strong. So there is less motivation for him to risk more to qualify ahead. Because he knows that while the race becomes more difficult in P2 or P3, it’s not impossible for him. He can make up places.

This to me is very clear when we saw him paired up with Rosberg and Valtteri, in those years where it was just a Mercedes team mate competition. In 2014 Rosberg qualified ahead in more races than not, yet Lewis overhauled him after starting behind in more races than not. Similarly with Valtteri, Lewis knows he can get past him in the race. But in 2017, 2018 Lewis knew that at especially some tracks it wasn’t going to be easy to get him in the race (though having said that, he often put manners on Seb in wheel to wheel). This year with Max it’s going to be interesting because Max has strong race pace and is a weapon in defending so Lewis will probably have to take more risk in qualifying. It will depend on the situation though. If Valtteri is strong in qualifying, then Lewis has team strategy on his side and he can afford to take less risk.

So when taking the whole picture into account, and viewing qualifying in terms of risk vs reward, it puts things in perspective. When I watch Singapore 2018, it was a magical lap and I found myself forgetting to breathe several times watching that lap. Lewis had that car four wheel micro sliding, all while putting in micro corrections and keeping the throttle in, the whole way around. You watch that and you think if a driver can do that, has that much ability, why doesn’t he simply access that level every Saturday? Because the risk is immense. Watching that lap, I think Lewis may have left a tenth in at the very most over the entire lap. In almost every corner, he was at the absolute limit, and clearly he had the car in the right setup and was mentally in the zone but the risk was still huge. With walls just inches away, the tiniest discrepancy between estimation of grip vs reality and qualifying is over and race is starting from the back of the grid. But Singapore is not a track that is easy to overtake on, and for whatever reason he decided that he felt confident in the car and himself that day to take the risk and access the very edges of his ability. The outcome worked out, but the risk was still high.

But I think more often than not, Lewis is a driver that leaves something on the table on Saturdays because he has the additional ability to compensate on Sundays.

Very well put. I think he risks slightly less than others in Q, which might lose him a tenth or two, but since he's so good he's still extremely competitive, and this just makes sure whatever happens, at worst he starts P2 or P3 and his race isn't ruined. Other drivers with less natural talent, and/or having to overdrive to compensate having poor cars, can't do this otherwise they'll start far back, they need that very last tenth. But then they can't drive at that level the whole race, it takes too much concentration that just can't be kept up for that long. Lewis has the spare brain capacity because of the extra talent.

I mean just look at his qualifying record against Bottas. Bottas has quite a lot of poles, which means Lewis is far from unbeatable on Saturday, this next to a fairly average driver even. However, when Bottas is in front the gap to Lewis is almost always tiny, whereas the same isn't true the other way around. And then you can count on Lewis to invariably pass Bottas in the race, in 90% of races in places that aren't Sochi. Bottas can risk a lap on the raged edge to just about barely squeeze past Lewis, but over a consistent 60 laps? The talent rises.

[realracer200]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

[gillesfan76]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

 

The beauty of it is that we’ll never know. It’s easy to pretend one would be faster or better than the other and it’s fun to speculate, but actually there’s no evidence one way or another. Different era, different cars, different team mates, different everything. What we do know is that all three were standout drivers compared to their peers (Senna in qualifying, because Prost was often more than a match for him in the race).

 

Would Lewis have been as fast as Senna alongside him in that era’s cars? Personally I doubt it, but we’ll never know. Would Senna have been as quick as Lewis alongside him in this era’s cars? Personally I think yes he would have, but again we’ll never know. What makes me think Senna would be quicker? Because in qualifying he was that much quicker than his team mates. But on the flip side of the argument, drivers weren’t as prepared as they are now, the data isn’t available for all to reach a high level and learn from their team mates. So there is a possibility that with the same data available to both, they both might be at such a high level extracting almost everything from the car.

 

One of the reasons Senna was so quick though was not just his talent, but he was willing to take risks that other drivers wouldn’t. See my previous post, I think Lewis is a very clever driver. Far more clever than Senna was. I don’t think Lewis takes huge risks in qualifying very often.

[ExEd]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

Poor Ayrton and MSC , having to drive the slower cars.
… the comedy continues!

[Joshrobins13]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

At least credit the Twitter account you stole this insightful comment from.

[Augurk]

It's a great feat and an incredible number. In congratulate him on this momentous achievement. He's still doing excellent and is one of the all time greatest drivers, even if cross-era comparions are impossible. 

 

However he's been driving WDC-competitive cars from his first year in F1, only having 3 seasons without a car that was capable of competing for championships. And has been driving dominant cars for a larger period of time than any other driver in history. For most of the past 7 years there were only 2 cars capable of driving for pole, and Lewis was in one of them. Paired with the longest seasons and the stable qualifying regulations - it's just wholly incomparable to someone like Schumacher or Senna. Schumacher had a big chunk of his career in weird qualifying rules that meant the fastest driver wasn't always going to get pole. And Senna never had a stretch of dominant cars. The numbers for Lewis get so inflated and big that they start to lose meaning for me and they somehow even deride from the great driver that he is.

 

As I've said before I'm sure my appreciation for him gets elevated in a season that he faces some real outside competition again. But we also see he's not infallible when he has to go to the limit (which he hasn't had to do for much too long a part of his career). So far he's doing a great job in 2021 but he isn't perfect. And we'll just have to wait and see if we actually have a season long fight or that one of the teams starts creeping ahead with car performance. 

[P123]

The beauty of it is that we’ll never know. It’s easy to pretend one would be faster or better than the other and it’s fun to speculate, but actually there’s no evidence one way or another. Different era, different cars, different team mates, different everything. What we do know is that all three were standout drivers compared to their peers (Senna in qualifying, because Prost was often more than a match for him in the race).

 

Would Lewis have been as fast as Senna alongside him in that era’s cars? Personally I doubt it, but we’ll never know. Would Senna have been as quick as Lewis alongside him in this era’s cars? Personally I think yes he would have, but again we’ll never know. What makes me think Senna would be quicker? Because in qualifying he was that much quicker than his team mates. But on the flip side of the argument, drivers weren’t as prepared as they are now, the data isn’t available for all to reach a high level and learn from their team mates. So there is a possibility that with the same data available to both, they both might be at such a high level extracting almost everything from the car.

 

One of the reasons Senna was so quick though was not just his talent, but he was willing to take risks that other drivers wouldn’t. See my previous post, I think Lewis is a very clever driver. Far more clever than Senna was. I don’t think Lewis takes huge risks in qualifying very often.

 

Data plays it's part- both in what the other driver can see, and in car preparation.  The margins are much smaller to play with now.  I don't think Lewis has been in a position where the data isn't available, or his teammate doesn't have access, nor he himself.  There are no secrets.  This is also the era of parc ferme.  There has to be a compromise in setup.  There are guys like Trulli, who could be exceptionally quick over a lap, a match for Alonso, but not so in the races.  The Hamilton/ Bottas dynamic is similar, and I think we can say Bottas's one lap pace is decent given what he managed to edge on average over Massa, and how he is sometimes able to get the better of Hamilton.

 

Generally, I think Senna is in another world when it comes to one lap pace in terms of consistent brilliance, similar to Clark.  That's not just to Lewis BTW.  But we'll never know how Lewis would go on quali tyres, with a quali engine and a quali setup, able to risk it all.

 

One interesting snippet is that Lewis has missed out on pole by less than a tenth on over 20 occasions.  

[Gary Davies]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

Evidence?

[sennamaster]

Senna and Schumacher were faster but Hamilton had the faster cars.

 

okay.............

[ebc]

Poor Ayrton and MSC , having to drive the slower cars.
… the comedy continues!

 

okay.............

 

Evidence?

 

At least credit the Twitter account you stole this insightful comment from.

 

I don't think there is any doubt that Hamilton has had faster cars, this is his 10th season with arguably the best car, 07,08,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21 and 2012 was probably the quickest car in qualifying.  For Senna maybe 88,89 90 & 91, Schumacher 00, 01, 02 & 04.  Lewis has been very lucky on the equipment side, and has done very well for himself and broken all sorts of records but I think it is probable that Senna and Schumacher were quicker.

[pRy]

Some interesting little tidbits from a Brundle/Lewis feature on Sky just now:

 

- Lewis does hardly any simulator work. One session a year I think he said. He actively avoids it.

- Doesn't walk the track. Sees little value to it.

- Doesn't believe in closed eye visualisation either.

- Believes the key to speed is getting the minor details right such as shifting at the right time but also applying different driving styles across one single lap.

 

You get the sense of his vast experience and he comes across these days as a driver who has it pretty much all figured out. He knows what works in every area of what he does and he belongs to a team that knows the same. A perfect combination really. I've never seen him look so laid back and sure of himself. 

[PlayboyRacer]

I don't think there is any doubt that Hamilton has had faster cars, this is his 10th season with arguably the best car, 07,08,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21 and 2012 was probably the quickest car in qualifying.

You're putting a very heavy emphasis there on the word "arguably". I'd automatically take out 3 seasons you've listed there.

You can add 1994, 2003 and perhaps even 2006 for Schumacher btw.

Edited by PlayboyRacer, 09 May 2021 - 12:48.

[P123]

I don't think there is any doubt that Hamilton has had faster cars, this is his 10th season with arguably the best car, 07,08,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21 and 2012 was probably the quickest car in qualifying.  For Senna maybe 88,89 90 & 91, Schumacher 00, 01, 02 & 04.  Lewis has been very lucky on the equipment side, and has done very well for himself and broken all sorts of records but I think it is probable that Senna and Schumacher were quicker.

 

I'm not sure any of that can be deemed as proof of what you claim.  Merely that it may explain the overall higher statistical total.  But if you're picking '07, '08, '17, '18 and '12 ("probably faster car in quali"), then 2019 it probably wasn't in quali and similarly for Schumacher you start picking out the likes of '94, '03 and '06 where his car was as capable of regularly competing for pole, sometimes taking the majority.

 

Senna is different class, and I don't think the Schumacher name belongs with him as some bulwark to keep back the apparently unworthy Hamilton when celebrating one lap specialists/ overall speed. 

[CSF]

Phenomenal achievement. Can’t say I’ve ever been his biggest fan, but I admire what he has achieved. Congratulations!

When he left McLaren for Mercedes, I wrote a comment on James Allen’s website saying he’d just thrown his career down the toilet. I said he’d never win another championship, and likely not many races. I didn’t say anything about pole positions though.
I don’t make predictions any more...

 

 

I thought Perez would win a race before him.     

[Collombin]

- Doesn't walk the track. Sees little value to it.

RIP Roger Stoddard.