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Bottas (briefly!) holding up Hamilton mid-Spanish GP: significant?


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#301 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:42

Because Red Bull is as close as ever or maybe the same strength. And Bottas doesn't cut it. He is only protected by the fact that all the newcomers are struggling for the moment, and that includes Perez. He also is of little use to Hamilton. If he would be second after Hamilton this year to deny Max points then I agree or when Perez becomes settled and Bottas is faster then I agree. Otherwise not.

 

Max would beg to differ with a record of 1/4 thus far  :rotfl: and slipping back race to race as Lewis gets better and better as a result of "harmonious" and "trusting" environment at Mercedes.  Max is losing 3/4 with the better car, he's realizing its more then the best car to win consistently every time out.  He'll learn to cope with that extra pressure of expectation EVERY time now, not just 2-3x a year.   He's flustered already yet Lewis has had to cope with that since his 1st race hundreds of times in a row. :cool:



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#302 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:45

Max would beg to differ with a record of 1/4 thus far  :rotfl: and slipping back race to race as Lewis gets better and better as a result of "harmonious" and "trusting" environment at Mercedes.  Max is losing 3/4 with the better car, he's realizing its more then the best car to win consistently every time out.  He'll learn to cope with that extra pressure of expectation EVERY time now, not just 2-3x a year.   He's flustered already yet Lewis has had to cope with that since his 1st race hundreds of times in a row. :cool:

You keep saying he has the better car. You really think he had a better car in Portimao and in Spain? 



#303 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 14:13

You keep saying he has the better car. You really think he had a better car in Portimao and in Spain? 

 

I think he hasn't got onto figuring out the med compound tire.  I think the car is faster overall yeah but he isn't unlocking the tires the way Lewis is for a mid to end stint.

 

So I think it's Lewis is faster overall a race due to stint control, RB Max faster car but Max can't get both compounds to work long enough.

 

So as the season unfolds key areas for me will be:  Can Mercedes slap on more speed in developments faster then Max and RB figuring out how to eek out the compounds longer.   Also, Honda seem bullish they have more to bring before the engine lock down so can they so reliably.. And Mercedes unlock what that bulb is on the side of their engine to make their PU go better.


Edited by Paco, 12 May 2021 - 14:16.


#304 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 15:55

Ask Ferrari how the Schumi years and the nearly exact same approach worked out for them.  Ask RB during their run.

 

If you look at the last 25-30 years, its pretty much "The Only" formula that works.   Mercedes "got away" with the Nico formula simply because they had such a huge advantage over every else which is not the case any longer.  RB could not even handle a Max & Ricciardo battle well.

very different tbh.  Mercedes didn't exactly handle the Lewis/Nico pairing well, either.  But the main difference is that both Lewis and Nico knew it would be absolute career suicide to leave the team when any other car would mean fighting for scraps.  But it was anything but harmonious and they didn't handle it any better than RB have done.  Most of the time the problems tend to come from the drivers anyway and whether or not the management can appease them is often down to luck.

 

Regardless, Lewis/Bottas also worked because the car was so far ahead.  When they had competition, Bottas stumbled and they were lucky that Lewis pulled through for them.  Only question is how long they feel that will still be the case



#305 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 16:37

very different tbh.  Mercedes didn't exactly handle the Lewis/Nico pairing well, either.  But the main difference is that both Lewis and Nico knew it would be absolute career suicide to leave the team when any other car would mean fighting for scraps.  But it was anything but harmonious and they didn't handle it any better than RB have done.  Most of the time the problems tend to come from the drivers anyway and whether or not the management can appease them is often down to luck.

 

Regardless, Lewis/Bottas also worked because the car was so far ahead.  When they had competition, Bottas stumbled and they were lucky that Lewis pulled through for them.  Only question is how long they feel that will still be the case

 

Lucky Lewis pulled.. that is showing a bias.  That's why Lewis is there.. its more an expectation then luck that he is able to (not unlike RB expect that of Max, Ferrari expect of Charles, what McLaren was hoping for with Ricciardo, what Renault and Ferrari expected of Fernando) - even Lando pulled out a couple of times this year - getting the car to finish better then whats expected.  That's where the truly greats shine on Sundays vs. the also ran.  Its finding that extra bit in races to bring home the points and/or results when its just not perfect for them.

 

Is Bottas a great.. absolutely not, just as Nico is not a great.  That doesn't take away that they are excellent and get/got close enough to Lewis that its hard for competitors to take a championship away from them cause no other team at the front of the grid have such a good pairing delivering nearly EVERY time out.    That ability to count on BOTH of your drivers 90% of the time that is a HUGE factor in continued success.

 

To break that up for NO REASON is just mad.  Its  a combination of everything that makes the machine work so flawlessly.  Taking out any one piece can't break down the success so quickly.

 

If Ricciardo had not left RB, their success would have been way more and even threatened Mercedes far into problems with strat that could have given RB far more wins then they have with Max alone the past 2yr + 4 races.


Edited by Paco, 12 May 2021 - 16:45.


#306 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 21:38

very different tbh.  Mercedes didn't exactly handle the Lewis/Nico pairing well, either.  But the main difference is that both Lewis and Nico knew it would be absolute career suicide to leave the team when any other car would mean fighting for scraps.  But it was anything but harmonious and they didn't handle it any better than RB have done.  Most of the time the problems tend to come from the drivers anyway and whether or not the management can appease them is often down to luck.

 

Regardless, Lewis/Bottas also worked because the car was so far ahead.  When they had competition, Bottas stumbled and they were lucky that Lewis pulled through for them.  Only question is how long they feel that will still be the case

so what you say is it worked and they need to change because you feel that's not a good indicator it will work in the future?

you are right, the past is not enough to predict the future. Consistency in the approach always has been

why change a winning formula? Why solve a problem you don't have?



#307 Bliman

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 21:50

so what you say is it worked and they need to change because you feel that's not a good indicator it will work in the future?

you are right, the past is not enough to predict the future. Consistency in the approach always has been

why change a winning formula? Why solve a problem you don't have?

Yeah it worked in the past because Mercedes had no competition. That has changed. Bottas is safe for now because Perez is still not up to speed yet.

So you have to be clear why it is/was a winning formula. And the reason imo is not because of Bottas it is because the car was superior and only Red Bull and only Max could get near. And even Bottas couldn't shake off Max in a superior car.

So if Mercedes will have a superior car or when the other Red Bull driver cannot get up to speed or the other teams cannot get closer then yeah Bottas is a good teammate. But if one of these parameters changes, then he isn't one.



#308 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 21:57

so what you say is it worked and they need to change because you feel that's not a good indicator it will work in the future?

you are right, the past is not enough to predict the future. Consistency in the approach always has been

why change a winning formula? Why solve a problem you don't have?

I don't really understand how you get that from what I said.  I said it worked because the car was so far ahead but flaws appeared when things became more competitive.  The question is how competitive do they think it will be in the coming years.

 

Look, if you just look at results without looking at how those results were achieved then you're not really getting a balanced picture. Many cite the WCC as proof that the partnership is working, but that completely ignores the reality that pretty much anybody partnered with Lewis would have won the WCC in the Merc.  Does that mean that anybody would have been the perfect partner?  

 

Lewis/Bottas works more because of the car than because how Bottas has driven



#309 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 22:07

Lucky Lewis pulled.. that is showing a bias.  That's why Lewis is there.. its more an expectation then luck that he is able to (not unlike RB expect that of Max, Ferrari expect of Charles, what McLaren was hoping for with Ricciardo, what Renault and Ferrari expected of Fernando) - even Lando pulled out a couple of times this year - getting the car to finish better then whats expected.  That's where the truly greats shine on Sundays vs. the also ran.  Its finding that extra bit in races to bring home the points and/or results when its just not perfect for them.

 

Is Bottas a great.. absolutely not, just as Nico is not a great.  That doesn't take away that they are excellent and get/got close enough to Lewis that its hard for competitors to take a championship away from them cause no other team at the front of the grid have such a good pairing delivering nearly EVERY time out.    That ability to count on BOTH of your drivers 90% of the time that is a HUGE factor in continued success.

 

To break that up for NO REASON is just mad.  Its  a combination of everything that makes the machine work so flawlessly.  Taking out any one piece can't break down the success so quickly.

 

If Ricciardo had not left RB, their success would have been way more and even threatened Mercedes far into problems with strat that could have given RB far more wins then they have with Max alone the past 2yr + 4 races.

I have absolutely no idea how you managed to turn what I said into something about Lewis.  

 

I understand you think the pairing works.  I get why you might think that from recent results.  I also get why you might think the conservative choice is the wisest one.  I don't agree however that there is NO REASON to change.  You might not agree with those reasons, but they definitely exist.  And those reasons  centre on how much Mercedes think the competition may close up in the coming years, because the closer the competition gets, the less the case for keeping Bottas makes sense.



#310 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 22:09

 Many cite the WCC as proof that the partnership is working, but that completely ignores the reality that pretty much anybody partnered with Lewis would have won the WCC in the Merc.  

 

You use reality to describe fiction. 

The reality is the partnership won all the WCC it had to win.



#311 Bliman

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 22:15

You use reality to describe fiction. 

The reality is the partnership won all the WCC it had to win.

Do you think the Mercedes was by far the superior car the previous years?



#312 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 22:34

You use reality to describe fiction. 

The reality is the partnership won all the WCC it had to win.

so context is irrelevant then?



#313 Tomerell

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 08:11

Do you think the Mercedes was by far the superior car the previous years?

Yes and thats also the main reason why Lewis is Sir Lewis atm...



#314 FortiFord

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 08:39

Do you think the Mercedes was by far the superior car the previous years?

 

In 2020 and 2019 - yes. 

 

In 2017 and 2018 - no. 



#315 hogstar

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Posted 13 May 2021 - 15:11

Some have said that Bottas is the new Eddie Cheever, but Bottas doesn't help sell Mercedes Cars in America, so that would have to be a no...  :stoned: