219 replies to this topic

[azza200]

Who during the late 80's & early 90's would you say was the worst Pay driver or Pay Drivers too be in F1 during that period. 

 

 

Edited by azza200, 10 May 2021 - 19:52.

[messy]

People always point to Riccardo Rosset but look at his junior record. It was legit good. He was poor in F1 no doubt, but his results in F3000 suggested he was far from the talentless oaf he was made to look. Even Taki Inoue, another popular pick on these threads, used to occasionally outqualify his team-mate. Jean-Denis Deletraz springs to mind. He absolutely sucked.

[Brawn BGP 001]

Lavaggi was pretty poor, failed to make 107% a few times in 96.

[PayasYouRace]

[cpbell]

Lavaggi and Deletraz were awful.

[Izzyeviel]

Did we ever find out what Deletraz was doing?

 

Anyway, my vote goes to: Belmondo. 

 

Was Pascal Fabre a paydriver? I have a hunch he was, but I can't confirm it. He was the Mazepin of his day, but he was usually so slow to have a crash. (Apart from Austria when he decided to divebomb onto the scene.)

[messy]

Was shocked to find that Deletraz actually didn't qualify last at the 1994 Australian Grand Prix - he went quicker than Schiatterella and started second last. So he's currently a step up on Nikita Mazepin. 

[statman]

Claudio Langes failed to pre-qualify 14 times, a record.

 

Not sure if he was a "pay driver" though, but junior records also wasn't very good. So I guess there must have been some cash involved.

 

 

 

Pedro Chaves failed to pre-qualify 13 times. Googled him and it says: 

In 1991, he suffered a disastrous season in Formula One, failing to pre-qualify for 13 Grands Prix with an under-financed and uncompetitive Coloni. After failing to pre-qualify for the Portuguese Grand Prix, Chaves left the team, taking the remainder of his sponsorship money with him.

At the end of that year Chaves had an agreement with Leyton House (which would be renamed to March F1) to compete in 1992, however the sponsorship money came too late, and Karl Wendlinger took the place.

[ensign14]

People always point to Riccardo Rosset but look at his junior record. It was legit good. He was poor in F1 no doubt, but his results in F3000 suggested he was far from the talentless oaf he was made to look. Even Taki Inoue, another popular pick on these threads, used to occasionally outqualify his team-mate. Jean-Denis Deletraz springs to mind. He absolutely sucked.

And Deletraz had a decent enough junior record.  In retrospect, Rosset's F3k season was in a year that was devoid of quality,  Sospiri won the title at about the seventeenth time of asking and only Bräck and McNish made a decent career in topline motorsports.

 

Worst in the pay driver era?  Giovanna Amati.  Got the Brabham drive because of the publicity.  Her junior record was pretty ropey.  And when in F1 she was Nissany slow.

 

Not far off, Adrian Campos.  It's not coincidental that Minardi scored their first-ever point literally the race after they binned him off. 

[Ivanhoe]

 

Not far off, Adrian Campos.  It's not coincidental that Minardi scored their first-ever point literally the race after they binned him off. 

Almost forgot about him. Did he ever finish a race?

[Risil]

I would go in another direction and suggest that by definition, the worst pay-drivers were the ones that never paid up.

[absinthedude]

I'll give Belmondo some slack. He was nowhere near as fast as Wendlinger but he was a safe pair of hands and finished when he qualified. Brought enough money to the team to keep them afloat when without him they'd have sunk. 

 

Regardless of prior performance, Deletraz was awful in F1. Totally out of his depth. Inoue was a danger to himself, but perhaps that was as much off track as on! I recall Adrian Campos saying that he never really got used to the turbo engine and looked a lot worse than he actually was. He had the misfortune to be driving the Moto Moderni engine.....but the following year with the Ford/Cosworth he wasn't any better. 

[NixxxoN]

Not far off, Adrian Campos.  It's not coincidental that Minardi scored their first-ever point literally the race after they binned him off. 

Well, it is somewhat coincidential, since Martini got a point thanks to everyone but 8 reitiring from the race. And it was the one and only point of the season.

Martini was a better driver than Campos, but the car was still a piece of crap

[F1matt]

I would go in another direction and suggest that by definition, the worst pay-drivers were the ones that never paid up.

 

 

Deletraz also fits into that category as well. 

[PayasYouRace]

I would go in another direction and suggest that by definition, the worst pay-drivers were the ones that never paid up.

We can definitely put 1996 Minardi driver Taki Inoue on the list then.

[azza200]

Andrea Chiesa was hopeless in 1992 DNQ for 7 out of  the 10 races he took part in and retired in the other 3 

Edited by azza200, 11 May 2021 - 11:10.

[FLB]

We can definitely put 1996 Minardi driver Taki Inoue on the list then.

This is a very interesting read for those who don't know the story:

 

https://www.bccourts...001bcsc0108.htm

[noikeee]

I'm voting for Deletraz and Lavaggi as well. Though Deletraz had a fairly successful career post F1, despite being incredibly bad in F1. Bizarre.

[FortiFord]

Philippe Adams

[BRG]

Andrea Chiesa was hopeless in 1992 DNQ for 7 out of  the 10 races he took part in and retired in the other 3 

To be fair, he was in Fondmetal which only managed to finish twice in 19 attempts.  Tarquini also struggled with it. 

[ensign14]

Well, it is somewhat coincidential, since Martini got a point thanks to everyone but 8 reitiring from the race. And it was the one and only point of the season.

Martini was a better driver than Campos, but the car was still a piece of crap

 

Given he was usually several tenths slower than Sala, and Sala started 24th for that race, I doubt Campos would have qualified.

[FLB]

Philippe Adams

Adams was also a "money issue', in the sense that he'd have to pay for whatever he'd break (and had no money).

[statman]

this topic reminds me a bit of the F1 rejects website from back in the day

[SophieB]

I would go in another direction and suggest that by definition, the worst pay-drivers were the ones that never paid up.

A few years back (about 2011 or 2012), there was a pay driver who was all set to be driving in Australia for one of the backmarker teams and right at the last minute didn’t do so because basically the money never arrived but I can’t remember who that was and I don’t think he ever did drive in F1. Can’t remember his name and I have probably got some of the details wrong.

[absinthedude]

This is a very interesting read for those who don't know the story:

 

https://www.bccourts...001bcsc0108.htm

 

Interesting, and I was not previously aware of the judgement.

[Risil]

A few years back (about 2011 or 2012), there was a pay driver who was all set to be driving in Australia for one of the backmarker teams and right at the last minute didn’t do so because basically the money never arrived but I can’t remember who that was and I don’t think he ever did drive in F1. Can’t remember his name and I have probably got some of the details wrong.

 

Luis Razia? I think he did the same thing in Indycar.

[SophieB]

Luis Razia? I think he did the same thing in Indycar.

Yes! That’s him. Looking it up, he was dropped by Marussia right before FP1 and eventually replaced by Jules Bianchi :/

[realracer200]

Truth be told the cars of the late 80's & early 90's were much more difficult to drive than the current cars, so most of these drivers would actually do fine today.

[messy]

Razia was pretty good in GP2 - but if the criteria for this is "pay drivers who don't pay up" then bingo we have a winner. I believe he lost a drive twice for the same reason.

[azza200]

Truth be told the cars of the late 80's & early 90's were much more difficult to drive than the current cars, so most of these drivers would actually do fine today.

 

good example is

[ConsiderAndGo]

Alex Yoong always springs to my mind.

I don’t actually know if he was as awful as I remember!

[Anderis]

Truth be told the cars of the late 80's & early 90's were much more difficult to drive than the current cars, so most of these drivers would actually do fine today.

To stay on the track? Maybe. To be anywhere near competitive pace-wise? I doubt. The quality of drivers on the grid is higher than ever IMO and yet some drivers look a bit out of depth. I imagine drivers like Latifi and Mazepin vastly outshine their counterparts from 80's and 90's when it comes to their pre-F1 record and many of pay drivers from that era wouldn't get anywhere close to fulfiling current superlicence requirements. 

 

Of course it's a purely theoretical question because everything would be different if those drivers grew up some 30 years later.

Edited by Anderis, 11 May 2021 - 12:14.

[Frood]

Alex Yoong always springs to my mind.

I don’t actually know if he was as awful as I remember!

Had very few noticeable results prior to F1. He was decently competitive in A1GP after F1 - he picked up a few wins and the grid was full of somewhat decent drivers.

[Anderis]

To stay on the track? Maybe. To be anywhere near competitive pace-wise? I doubt. The quality of drivers on the grid is higher than ever IMO and yet some drivers look a bit out of depth.

To expand on my post: just look at who is driving near the bottom of the grid at the moment.

The worst team has a F2 champion.

The 2nd worst team has a F2 champion who would have won his first F1 race in a good car if his team didn't screw up, being thrown there without any preparation.

The 3rd worst team has a WDC and the 4th worst team has a multiple WDC! And a guy who once put a midfield car on the podium and front row while being 18 years old...

 

I can't imagine any other F1 era where you would experience anywhere near this level of competition at the back of the grid.

[Peat]

When Chanoch Nissany drove in that FP1 session, I became pretty disenchanted with F1 and feared for it's future when some hobbiest could literally just pay to be an F1 driver for a day. 

I see he has a clutch of Hungarian F2000 wins/titles to his name, so he can't be that hopeless. But he was woefully out of his depth in a contemporary F1 car against professional drivers. 

[FortiFord]

Adams was also a "money issue', in the sense that he'd have to pay for whatever he'd break (and had no money).

 

An interesting snippet:

 

to be fair, the rain was even heavier on the Saturday, but that didn’t stop Christian Fittipaldi (who had been unable to set a time on Friday) bettering Adams’ time from the drier Friday session…and Adams ended up last on the grid, only just qualifying, and an incredible 6 seconds off the pace of his team-mate Herbert.

After 3 more spins in Sunday’s warm-up, it was race time. Our plucky Belgian hero didn’t cover himself in glory here either. For elusive reasons, he decided not to take up his grid slot in 26th, and instead inexplicably lined up on the 27th grid position, directly behind the Simtek of Jean-Marc Gounon. The reasons for this eventually became clear – as Adams dutifully began to follow the Simtek round for lap after lap – this despite the fact that the Lotus was a significantly better car, and really should have been well ahead of Gounon’s machine. In one moment of pure farce, Gounon spun at the La Source hairpin and Adams waited for him to get going again.

 

https://theparabolic...philippe-adams/

[MLC]

So who has actually made it to F1 (that is, to attempt to qualify) whilst having a poor junior career? There are F3 and F3000 champions who never made the final step to F1, and many who did but never had any success. But there are always those that have the backing to push them further up the ladder than their results deserve. 

 

Not F1, but I was always amazed that Danica Patrick made it to Indycar without ever winning a race in junior formula. You'd think winning an entry level Formula Ford event would be routine for one to make it to top line open wheel series. I don't know off-hand but am sure there are those who have made it to F1 without ever winning in anything. Anyone know?

[Izzyeviel]

Truth be told the cars of the late 80's & early 90's were much more difficult to drive than the current cars, so most of these drivers would actually do fine today.

 

are you rene arnoux?

[messy]

So who has actually made it to F1 (that is, to attempt to qualify) whilst having a poor junior career? There are F3 and F3000 champions who never made the final step to F1, and many who did but never had any success. But there are always those that have the backing to push them further up the ladder than their results deserve. 

 

Not F1, but I was always amazed that Danica Patrick made it to Indycar without ever winning a race in junior formula. You'd think winning an entry level Formula Ford event would be routine for one to make it to top line open wheel series. I don't know off-hand but am sure there are those who have made it to F1 without ever winning in anything. Anyone know?

 

Pedro Diniz, I think, never won a race in his entire post-karting career.

Edited by messy, 11 May 2021 - 13:09.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Did we ever find out what Deletraz was doing?

 

 

Looked like he was out of fuel or having a fuel flow issue? Jinking back and forth is something you do when it feels like the car is coughing on an empty tank. 

[Collective]

When Chanoch Nissany drove in that FP1 session, I became pretty disenchanted with F1 and feared for it's future when some hobbiest could literally just pay to be an F1 driver for a day. 

I see he has a clutch of Hungarian F2000 wins/titles to his name, so he can't be that hopeless. But he was woefully out of his depth in a contemporary F1 car against professional drivers. 

The guy was basically complaining the car had too much downforce lol 

[Izzyeviel]

So who has actually made it to F1 (that is, to attempt to qualify) whilst having a poor junior career? There are F3 and F3000 champions who never made the final step to F1, and many who did but never had any success. But there are always those that have the backing to push them further up the ladder than their results deserve. 

 

Not F1, but I was always amazed that Danica Patrick made it to Indycar without ever winning a race in junior formula. You'd think winning an entry level Formula Ford event would be routine for one to make it to top line open wheel series. I don't know off-hand but am sure there are those who have made it to F1 without ever winning in anything. Anyone know?

 

Dont think lower formulae results are much of a guide, you'll see superstars in F3/3000 who fail miserly in F1, and vice versa. Both Damon Hill & Mansell have average results at best and look what happened...

 

As for Pedro Diniz, he was a quick guy who someone who had no results anywhere. He was pretty decent.

[ensign14]

Not F1, but I was always amazed that Danica Patrick made it to Indycar without ever winning a race in junior formula. You'd think winning an entry level Formula Ford event would be routine for one to make it to top line open wheel series. I don't know off-hand but am sure there are those who have made it to F1 without ever winning in anything. Anyone know?

Diniz never won a race in his life.  Johnny Carwash never won a single seater race - in fact, his 10th at the 1996 Hungarian GP was his best-ever single seater race result.  Never beat that in F3000 or F3.

[Ross Stonefeld]

Thing is though, that we stay away from because it's an uncomfortable issue to think about, is an overwhelming amount of drivers are pay drivers. This is a seriously expensive and therefor exclusive sport. It strains the credibility of 'sport' most of the time. So there are terrible pay drivers and champion pay drivers. What changes is your reputation and how much you have to bring. 

 

Lavaggi and Stroll are closer to each other than either one of them is to any forum member.

[ensign14]

Lavaggi and Stroll are closer to each other than either one of them is to any forum member.

That's not a valid comparison though.  The guy who finished 20th in the 10,000m final of the 2016 Olympics was about 3% slower than the winner.   It's that tiny margin that separates the stars from the also-rans and that's where professional racing drivers should be making the difference. 

 

Plus how good would the average forum member be if they had bought their way to a dozen years of lower formula experience?  I thought of Nissany as being the default turn-up-and-go standard...

[Ross Stonefeld]

That's my point though, we're only talking slight differences of pay to play. Best of the Rich kids makes you a world champion.

[noriaki]

So who has actually made it to F1 (that is, to attempt to qualify) whilst having a poor junior career? There are F3 and F3000 champions who never made the final step to F1, and many who did but never had any success. But there are always those that have the backing to push them further up the ladder than their results deserve.

Not F1, but I was always amazed that Danica Patrick made it to Indycar without ever winning a race in junior formula. You'd think winning an entry level Formula Ford event would be routine for one to make it to top line open wheel series. I don't know off-hand but am sure there are those who have made it to F1 without ever winning in anything. Anyone know?

Not sure if Driver Database has it all but Inoue never even got a podium in the races it knows of. Not even close to scoring points in a good F3000 team either. https://www.driverdb...ers/taki-inoue/

When you think about it, he was actually outperforming himself in F1. With that weak a pedigree, 8th at Monza and 12th at Spa - having outqualified Papis - are not that bad results.

[Fatgadget]

Wow!...I am struggling to think of other sport disciplines where one is derided coming up with their own hard earned money to participate!

[mmmcurry]

Wow!...I am struggling to think of other sport disciplines where one is derided coming up with their own hard earned money to participate!

 

Just got me thinking which other sports could buy yourself to the top level? Certainly not ones like tennis or snooker, the performance of the kits can't make a difference. You'd certainly have trouble in teams sports, like buying yourself into the Liverpool lineup. I'm genuinely curious where else you could.

 

Thinking about it, I do remember something about one type or motor boat racing where all the skill was on the throttle, the other guy driving could almost be anyone so rich folk would buy those seats.

 

Steve.

[ensign14]

America's Cup, perhaps.  With a dozen on the boat doing the actual work you could hold the steering wheel straight when there's nothing to do.

 

It's also no coincidence that two of Saudi Arabia's three Olympics medal-winning performances have come in equestrianism.