Jump to content


Photo
* * * - - 2 votes

The worst pay drivers in F1


  • Please log in to reply
219 replies to this topic

#201 derstatic

derstatic
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 07 August 2021 - 06:13

Didn't know Jos came from such a poor background. No matter how he got into F1 he does not belong on a list of worst pay drivers. Max is a better driver than Jos was, which Jos has admitted, but he was a very competent grand prix driver in his own right. Imo both Ericsson and Latifi who I've seen mentioned here are competent drivers. Not superstars obviously, but not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be. 

 

I've been following F1 since 2000 and looking through the grids since then my candidates would be:

Gaston Mazzacane

Alex Yoong

Zsolt Baumgartner

Narain Karthikeyan

Yuji Ide

Roberto Mehri

Rio Haryanto



Advertisement

#202 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,495 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 07 August 2021 - 06:43

Not Merhi - he was legitimately talented. He just happened to be saddled with a hopeless car, and was at a massive weight disadvantage to Will Stevens.

#203 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 3,424 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 07 August 2021 - 07:43

I also think Karthikeyan was a better driver than his reputation suggests.

#204 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 46,511 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 07 August 2021 - 08:27

I always thought at Arrows in 1996 Rosset was in the "pay driver" role (replacing Inoue) and Verstappen was in the "talented one" role (replacing Morbidelli). Any money Jos brought would have been a bonus, and probably why they took him over Morbidelli but I don't think someone of his record and, at the time, potential, was exactly unworthy of a seat at the 8th best team in F1 at the time.

 

Come 2000/01, Arrows seemed to have the strategy of hiring two decent drivers who could also bring some sponsorship, aside from Verstappen, de la Rosa brought Repsol, and then Bernoldi brought Red Bull at a time when RBR and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri didn't exist, but I wouldn't consider any of them full-blown pay drivers, which I guess I define in my own head as drivers who wouldn't have a remote shot of an F1 seat without bringing lots of money.

I think it’s a bit of a black and white way of looking at it there. For 1996, Rosset was coming in as the F3000 runner-up, and I think he was supposed to be “the talented one”, and was even given the first car number in the team, No.16. Jos was number No.17. I think both were roughly equal in how they earned those seats. Yeah Rosset turned out to be a bit of a dud, but Footwork in transition to TWR, Lola, and a dying Tyrrell being dismantled by BAT were never going to be solid ground for a rookie.

 

TWR Arrows was horribly managed. 2000 seemed to be a case of going to two talents (even if they did bring some money) but then in 2001 de la Rosa was replaced by a Bernoldi and his Red Bull backing.

 

But I tend to define a pay driver like you do. Someone who wouldn’t be in a race seat without brining a lot of money. Where is gets difficult is determining if the money comes from being talented enough to earn a potential sponsorship or just from a business connection.



#205 derstatic

derstatic
  • Member

  • 714 posts
  • Joined: November 03

Posted 07 August 2021 - 09:47

Not Merhi - he was legitimately talented. He just happened to be saddled with a hopeless car, and was at a massive weight disadvantage to Will Stevens.

 

Ok didn't know about this weight issue. Just remember him being consistently slower than Stevens, who wasn't expected to be a future F1 super star either. 



#206 Frood

Frood
  • Member

  • 9,288 posts
  • Joined: January 14

Posted 07 August 2021 - 10:59

I also wouldn't say Haryanto was particularly bad. He outqualified Wehrlein three times in 12 races. Looking at the statistics from that season, it was only Hungary where he looked desperately slow.



#207 BRG

BRG
  • Member

  • 25,949 posts
  • Joined: September 99

Posted 07 August 2021 - 11:14

Vandoorne got the Dumfries treatment at McLaren next to Alonso, something that almost all forum members here still refuse to accept and one of the most talented youngsters at the time his carreer got destroyed before it even really started. He wasn't given a fair chance at all.

 

Not saying Dumfries was as talented as Vandoorne bit still pretty good: dominantly won the British F3 title in '84 and nearly won the European F3 title as well (because he didn't enter every race. The Ferrari test contract for '85 was one of his biggest mistakes I guess and so was the 2nd driver role at Lotus next to Senna, in reality he was treated as the 5th wheel of a car.

Belgian revisionism at its best.

 

Vandoorne did NOT get the Dumfries treatment.  He was brought into McLaren as the next big thing, who had carried all before him in the junior series.  He was given equal treatment, because that is how McLaren work.  Unfortunately, the car was only adequate and the engine was useless, and his team-mate was a mega-star.  But he still failed to show any real promise, even after a second season.

 

Dumfries was brought into Lotus because they had to have a #2 and Senna would not permit anyone he thought might be remotely threatening.  Dumfries got the absolute bare minimum to enable him to race. Not surprisingly, he was dropped after one season.  But he still took a 5th place finish in Hungary.  Vandoorne never managed to finish that well.  And of course Johnny had a Le Mans win to his credit too.



#208 absinthedude

absinthedude
  • Member

  • 5,714 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 07 August 2021 - 11:20

Vandoorne got the Dumfries treatment at McLaren next to Alonso, something that almost all forum members here still refuse to accept and one of the most talented youngsters at the time his carreer got destroyed before it even really started. He wasn't given a fair chance at all.

 

Not saying Dumfries was as talented as Vandoorne bit still pretty good: dominantly won the British F3 title in '84 and nearly won the European F3 title as well (because he didn't enter every race. The Ferrari test contract for '85 was one of his biggest mistakes I guess and so was the 2nd driver role at Lotus next to Senna, in reality he was treated as the 5th wheel of a car.

 

Was Stoffel actually given the Dumfries treatment? You're correct in that Dumfries was basically treated like a 5th wheel. Did McLaren actively prevent Vandoorne from achieving? I got the impression he was given a fair crack at things but the main problem was just that he wasn't good enough. Are there examples of him being treated poorly by McLaren?



#209 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,495 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 07 August 2021 - 11:45

I also wouldn't say Haryanto was particularly bad. He outqualified Wehrlein three times in 12 races. Looking at the statistics from that season, it was only Hungary where he looked desperately slow.


Haryanto was respectable in qualifying, but God he was useless in the races. He dropped off the back like a stone.

#210 Burtros

Burtros
  • Member

  • 3,321 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 07 August 2021 - 11:56

I never knew this. Certainly explains his criminal history and propensity to start swinging his fists and men and women.


What an absolutely abhorrent generalisation of people from a less well off backgrounds that is. Absolutely disgusting thing to say in public. WTF.

Edited by Burtros, 07 August 2021 - 11:57.


#211 Bleu

Bleu
  • Member

  • 6,257 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 07 August 2021 - 12:22

I think it’s a bit of a black and white way of looking at it there. For 1996, Rosset was coming in as the F3000 runner-up, and I think he was supposed to be “the talented one”, and was even given the first car number in the team, No.16. Jos was number No.17. I think both were roughly equal in how they earned those seats. Yeah Rosset turned out to be a bit of a dud, but Footwork in transition to TWR, Lola, and a dying Tyrrell being dismantled by BAT were never going to be solid ground for a rookie.

 

 

I think17 is considered as an unlucky number in Brazil which is why drivers have sometimes swapped numbers with their team-mates.



#212 PlatenGlass

PlatenGlass
  • Member

  • 4,685 posts
  • Joined: June 14

Posted 07 August 2021 - 13:54

Was having the lower number in a team a sign of "status" anyway? I'd not heard this.

#213 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,495 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 07 August 2021 - 14:21

Yeah, the lead driver (or the one who finished ahead in the previous year's WDC) always used to get the lower number. For example in 1998 Coulthard was 7 and Hakkinen 8 because DC had finished higher in the 1997 points. Schumacher was always a lower number than Irvine. 3 and 4 or 5 and 6.

Edited by messy, 07 August 2021 - 14:22.


#214 PayasYouRace

PayasYouRace
  • Racing Sims Forum Host

  • 46,511 posts
  • Joined: January 10

Posted 07 August 2021 - 14:37

Was having the lower number in a team a sign of "status" anyway? I'd not heard this.

 

Most teams placed their senior driver, or the driver finishing the previous year's WDC ahead, with the lower number, as messy quite rightly pointed out. There were some exceptions. For example Michael Schumacher insisted on having the lower number than Nico Rosberg during their time at Mercedes. BAR in 2001 was another one, with returnee Panis (No.9) and team leader Villeneuve (No.10).

 

Since the personal numbers were introduced, the convention continues with the T-cam colours. Usually the first driver gets the black one, and the second driver gets the dayglow yellow one. Exceptions this year are Tsunoda, Honda's boy in Alpha Tauri, ahead of race winner Gasly, and Stroll, son of the boss at Aston Martin, ahead of multiple champion Vettel.



#215 Brawn BGP 001

Brawn BGP 001
  • Member

  • 5,961 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 07 August 2021 - 14:52

I also think Karthikeyan was a better driver than his reputation suggests.

May not be too popular this but I think he was the more accomplished of the Indian F1 drivers.



#216 FLB

FLB
  • Member

  • 29,862 posts
  • Joined: February 01

Posted 07 August 2021 - 15:34

May not be too popular this but I think he was the more accomplished of the Indian F1 drivers.

I've often wondered if Karthikeyan's pride skewed the perception of him. Some journalists here in Canada said it bordered on arrogance. 

 

I also wonder if Karun Chandhok's openness, self-deprecating sense of humour and general demeanor attracted more sympathy and makes him thus remembered as a better driver.



#217 Rediscoveryx

Rediscoveryx
  • Member

  • 3,424 posts
  • Joined: August 01

Posted 07 August 2021 - 15:39

I've often wondered if Karthikeyan's pride skewed the perception of him. Some journalists here in Canada said it bordered on arrogance.

I also wonder if Karun Chandhok's openness, self-deprecating sense of humour and general demeanor attracted more sympathy and makes him thus remembered as a better driver.


Karun the person is really hard to dislike.

#218 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 15,996 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 07 August 2021 - 15:40

I always thought at Arrows in 1996 Rosset was in the "pay driver" role (replacing Inoue) and Verstappen was in the "talented one" role (replacing Morbidelli). Any money Jos brought would have been a bonus, and probably why they took him over Morbidelli but I don't think someone of his record and, at the time, potential, was exactly unworthy of a seat at the 8th best team in F1 at the time.
 
Come 2000/01, Arrows seemed to have the strategy of hiring two decent drivers who could also bring some sponsorship, aside from Verstappen, de la Rosa brought Repsol, and then Bernoldi brought Red Bull at a time when RBR and Toro Rosso/Alpha Tauri didn't exist, but I wouldn't consider any of them full-blown pay drivers, which I guess I define in my own head as drivers who wouldn't have a remote shot of an F1 seat without bringing lots of money.


On a trip down archive-street, I've not been able to find an actual Arrows announcement of the drivers for 1996(!), just a couple of "even though Arrows hasn't confirmed; this is how it will be" articles, which have turned out to be correct. Anyway.
Arrows 1996 sponsors:
"The team is to receive backing from the soft drinks firm Hype, although most of the sponsorship money will have come from the drivers. The team has failed to secure backing from a motor manufacturer for the Hart V8, and so the engines will once again be known only as Harts."

 

Morbidelli (and Inoue):
"1995 Arrows driver Gianni Morbidelli does not have the money to secure an F1 drive this year, while Taki Inoue is now trying to take his pot of Japanese gold to Minardi."

 

From that is seems like money weren't just a bonus for 1996-Arrows, but something that was needed to get the seat.

 

TWR Arrows was horribly managed. 2000 seemed to be a case of going to two talents (even if they did bring some money) but then in 2001 de la Rosa was replaced by a Bernoldi and his Red Bull backing.
 
But I tend to define a pay driver like you do. Someone who wouldn’t be in a race seat without brining a lot of money. Where is gets difficult is determining if the money comes from being talented enough to earn a potential sponsorship or just from a business connection.

 
Arrows wouldn't survived until 2003 anyway, but they might've survived until the end of 2002 at least if they'd kept Verstappen (as the contract said) and not gotten rid of him, and his sponsors, and having to pay Verstappen for it, and then replacing him with Frentzen, even though Frentzen probably was the better driver of the two.
 
Pay driver definitions are a fun thing. Our definition are the same, but for me it doesn't really matter how talented a guy is, for me it's more a case of "had he been able to race if not for the money". If the answer is "no" then he is a pay driver, at least for that season.

 

 

Didn't know Jos came from such a poor background. No matter how he got into F1 he does not belong on a list of worst pay drivers. Max is a better driver than Jos was, which Jos has admitted, but he was a very competent grand prix driver in his own right. Imo both Ericsson and Latifi who I've seen mentioned here are competent drivers. Not superstars obviously, but not as bad as they are sometimes made out to be. 

I've been following F1 since 2000 and looking through the grids since then my candidates would be:

Yuji Ide

 

Oh, I don't mean that Verstappen should be mentioned in any discussion of anything "worst" in F1 (maybe one of the worst managed careers?). It was just a good example on a driver that might be counted as a pay driver (or not) depending on who you ask.

 

Did Ide actually bring any money? In fact, did any Super Aguri driver bring money? I can't even find anything that states that Yamamoto brought sponsors for his Aguri-drive. In hindsight I guess Aguri should've worked harder to get Kosuke Matsuura in the team, at least he had some experience and results in Europe.



#219 messy

messy
  • Member

  • 7,495 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 08 August 2021 - 10:42

Ricardo Rosset is such a funny one. By 1998 he probably fits the “worst pay-driver” bill nicely, because

1. He was rubbish
2. He was insisted on by sponsors when Ken Tyrrell wanted Jos Verstappen
3. His signing caused such a storm that Ken retired early and walked away
4. The mechanics hated him and according to legend rearranged the letters on his car to spell ‘t*sser’

That final 1998 Tyrrell wasn’t a half bad car was it. In the hands of Takagi, himself no future superstar, he regularly used to run in the top ten in free practice and qualified mid pack a few times. Another ‘what if’ really - surely Verstappen would have been able to do more with what was quite a neat chassis albeit it was saddled with the old customer Ford/Cosworth engine like the Minardi.

But Rosset was once considered a decent talent, having finished as F3000 runner-up and debut winner as a rookie (not unlike Vandoorne years later), and there was a feeling that he was very much second class citizen at Arrows in 1996 and never really got a fair chance. Due to some of the stuff above, surely you could say the same at Tyrrell couldn’t you? And in between the headline DNQs he actually put in a couple of decent performances in 1998, outqualifying Takagi on merit and running ahead of him in a few races. A very odd, confusing story I’ve always found interesting.

Advertisement

#220 Myrvold

Myrvold
  • Member

  • 15,996 posts
  • Joined: December 10

Posted 08 August 2021 - 14:51

Rosset really is a weird one. He wasn't outstanding in British F3, but looked like a good driver. In hindsight he entered F3000 with SuperNova the year they started their F3000 dominance. A bit like DAMS was for years in GP2, or Prema is in F3 these days. Probably helped by a very experienced Sospiri as well.

To your second point messy, it's even more unique when you think that it was the new, very rich team owners who could spend as much money as they wanted to, who decided on Rosset as he had the most money, so they could save up as much as possible as 1998 was a "meh, we have to run, don't we?" year. I am sure the guy was better than Tyrrell (BAT/BAR) made him look. He's had some titles in Porsche Cup in Brazil in the last 10 years. So completely talentless he isn't.

He also owns one Arrows and one Tyrrell that he raced in F1. So I guess he had talent when it came to running a business!