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Formula 1 clamps down on flexible rear wings


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#1 pdac

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:38

Just saw this article:

 

https://www.bbc.co.u...rmula1/57086036

 

Formula 1's governing body has launched a clampdown on flexible rear wings amid suspicions teams are bending the rules.

 

 

 

In addition to new, more targeted static tests, the FIA plans to use on-board cameras to monitor the behaviour of wings while cars are in motion in an attempt to spot any excessive movement of bodywork.

Teams will be required to put a series of markings on their wings to facilitate this process.

 

 

Seems Red Bull now have flexi rear wings in addition to their flexi front ones.

 

 

 



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#2 Risil

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:45

"Bending" the rules, rofl



#3 OO7

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:47

Next development: Flexible fiducials. :)



#4 BRG

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 10:54

Back to your drawing board, Mr Newey.  You've been busted again!  

 

Next development: Flexible fiducials. :)

For certain.  In the new capped F1, the best paid employees after the drivers will be the accountants, not the engineers or the aerodynamicists.



#5 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:13

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

#6 smitten

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:16

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

Surely they are just trying to make the marginal gains more marginal?



#7 Clatter

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:16

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

 


Teams or team? Maybe the ones whose wings don't flex already have heavier more rigid wings, so won't need to spend a penny. It could just go the last time this all cropped up. They increase the load test, RB pass and their wings still flex.

Edited by Clatter, 12 May 2021 - 11:17.


#8 PayasYouRace

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:21

I’d rather they just had a load test for safety, and as long as the wings meet the static measurements then leave them do it.

#9 SophieB

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:23

Ah, the eternal dance of clever designer versus scrutineer.



#10 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:43

This is clearly following a complaint from Merc vs Red Bull.  Not a great fan of this behind the scenes sniping to try to hobble opponents.  

 

That said, I'd be very surprised and not a little disappointed if it turns out RB's rear wing breaches the rules.  I mean, you'd think they would have learned from the last time so it would be a little dumb to be caught out twice for the same error.  I really hope it's not the case because if it is then bang goes any competition this year.  Again.



#11 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:50

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

Think of this another way, by not ruling on it they could be forcing teams to spend more money designing wings that do flex......



#12 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:53

Let them flex.



#13 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 11:56

Who do Mercedes have in their pocket? Introducing a borderline system in DAS - ahh we'll forbid it for next year but sure it's allowed this year even if it's against the spirit of the rules. 

 

I know that it might not have been technically against the rules and the FIA are only introducing extra testing methods in this particular case - but it feels a bit meh like this.

God forbid someone challenges Mercedes. F1 isn't dead enough already. We need to keep beating it with a stick.



#14 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:03

Who do Mercedes have in their pocket? Introducing a borderline system in DAS - ahh we'll forbid it for next year but sure it's allowed this year even if it's against the spirit of the rules. 

 

I know that it might not have been technically against the rules and the FIA are only introducing extra testing methods in this particular case - but it feels a bit meh like this.

God forbid someone challenges Mercedes. F1 isn't dead enough already. We need to keep beating it with a stick.

Someone should get you a list of all things that were Banned on the Merc's over the years..... :rotfl:



#15 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:04

Just imagine if the claims of Hamilton are correct and RBR gained 3 tenths by that. What a horrible race we would've seen if they hadn't brought the upgrade. And seeing as Mercedes brought no noticeable upgrades and RBR are still slower than them - can we finally accept that the Merc has been the benchmark car for every race since Imola? 



#16 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:05

Someone should get you a list of all things that were Banned on the Merc's over the years..... :rotfl:

I'll be right here waiting.  :up:



#17 Maustinsj

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:07

A video of said flexing?



#18 femi

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:07

This is clearly following a complaint from Merc vs Red Bull.  Not a great fan of this behind the scenes sniping to try to hobble opponents.  

 

That said, I'd be very surprised and not a little disappointed if it turns out RB's rear wing breaches the rules.  I mean, you'd think they would have learned from the last time so it would be a little dumb to be caught out twice for the same error.  I really hope it's not the case because if it is then bang goes any competition this year.  Again.

Actually, it was not behind the scene. Totto approached CH about it, a fact CH confirmed before Lewis spilled the beans.



#19 femi

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:11

Who do Mercedes have in their pocket? Introducing a borderline system in DAS - ahh we'll forbid it for next year but sure it's allowed this year even if it's against the spirit of the rules. 

 

I know that it might not have been technically against the rules and the FIA are only introducing extra testing methods in this particular case - but it feels a bit meh like this.

God forbid someone challenges Mercedes. F1 isn't dead enough already. We need to keep beating it with a stick.

The difference here was the Merc were open about what they were doing and got the "GO" from FIA. Not sure RB got a "GO" from FIA for their bendy rear wing. If the RB is slower on the straight and the rear end a bit woozy, we'll know why...



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#20 Huffer

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:13

This is clearly following a complaint from Merc vs Red Bull.  Not a great fan of this behind the scenes sniping to try to hobble opponents.  

 

But you were ok with the PU modes being banned mid-season last year, and ok with RBR's lobbying to have them banned, right?

 

And before you get miffed with me, just let me say that I'm saying that with my tongue firmly in my cheek. I don't really care if you're being inconsistent, I'm just slightly amused and hope you see the humor in it too. I perfectly understand that you fear RBR being hobbled and robbing us of a great fight this season, because I sort of feel the same way too. 

There's a part of me that agrees that the rules should be enforced, and RBR should be trying to work within those rules. And if those rules are being broken/bent, then the FIA should step in to make sure everybody is playing fairly. But there's another part of me that thinks that, even if they are pushing the rules (after all, they meet the testing criteria) is it really so bad? It's not a magic bullet and we're in desperate need of competition.

 

This is the first season I can remember in a long while that I've been excited about, because I get to watch two rather good drivers going head-to-head for the win. I don't want that taken away from me because of a small rule infringement. 

 

Because let's be honest - if RBR DO have a bendy rear wing, it's probably the thing that's helping balance out Merc's seeming race pace advantage. 


Edited by Huffer, 12 May 2021 - 12:16.


#21 Ivanhoe

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:15

The difference here was the Merc were open about what they were doing and got the "GO" from FIA. Not sure RB got a "GO" from FIA for their bendy rear wing. If the RB is slower on the straight and the rear end a bit woozy, we'll know why...

Read the rules and the article. Certain aerodynamic parts are subject to FIA load tests. It's evident that this wing passed these FIA tests and are therefor compliant with the current regulations. Article 9.3.3 of the Technical Regulations however stipulate the following:

 

 

 

In order to ensure that the requirements of Article 3.8 are respected, the FIA reserves the right to introduce further load/deflection tests on any part of the bodywork which appears to be (or is suspected of), moving whilst the car is in motion.

That's what they're envisaging now. Until then the Red Bull wing is compliant with the Technical Regulations.


Edited by Ivanhoe, 12 May 2021 - 12:16.


#22 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:16

Actually, it was not behind the scene. Totto approached CH about it, a fact CH confirmed before Lewis spilled the beans.

by behind the scenes I mean that teams lobby the FIA or otherwise make public noises to get the FIA to focus attention on their rivals.  Not a fan



#23 Calum

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:16

Takes me back to 2011. Remember the drama with Ferrari flutter front wings and RedBull endplates basically rubbing the floor.


Good times to be come on the forum see the photo updates and videoclips!

#24 Marklar

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:18

it's 2021 and people still complain about teams complaining?

#25 Gareth

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:23

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

I can understand the need for flexibility on the flexi rules, given the purpose is to stop teams hunting down performance in this area and the availability of ever more exotic materials that don't flex under certain conditions, but do under others.

 

I think it may be better handled season to season, though, with the tests set at the begining of the year - and if you pass, you pass - rather than allowing for the mid-season change.

 

Still, mid season changes are in the rule book and RBR will have started the season knowing that this sort of thing would be picked up on. Hopefully they still pass the more stringent tests or, if they don't, the impact on performance is minimal.



#26 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:24

it's 2021 and people still complain about teams complaining?

It's 2021 and people still complain about people complaining about teams complaining? ;-)

#27 uzsjgb

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:25

That said, I'd be very surprised and not a little disappointed if it turns out RB's rear wing breaches the rules.  

 

As the Red Bull rear wing has passed the FIA's tests, it is legal. I don't see what there is that could "turn out".



#28 Huffer

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:27

Read the rules and the article. Certain aerodynamic parts are subject to FIA load tests. It's evident that this wing passed these FIA tests and are therefor compliant with the current regulations. Article 9.3.3 of the Technical Regulations however stipulate the following:

 

 

 

That's what they're envisaging now. Until then the Red Bull wing is compliant with the Technical Regulations.

 

Urgh - I hate saying, but the fact that it passes the test doesn't mean that the part fulfills has adhered to the intent of the rule. It's just passing the test, which is being shown to be inadequate at testing for unwanted flexing. Which is why the FIA states that it reserves the right to revise the tests whenever it bloody well feels like it. 

However, I'm conflicted on this subject. I applaud RBR for (once again) working in the grey area of the rules and trying to gain an advantage. If it passes the test and it still flexes, then that's just too bad. It passed the test and given the minimal advantage if gives, I don't think RBR should be penalized straight away for this. I'd prefer a new ruling much later in the season or a new test for next season. As it stands, I fear it will rob us of a closer contest between Merc and RBR if the FIA sufficiently revise the test in short period of time. 



#29 Gareth

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:31

As the Red Bull rear wing has passed the FIA's tests, it is legal. I don't see what there is that could "turn out".

It could turn out that it does not pas the revised tests to be introduced at the French GP.

Not sure we will ever know - I expect the wing to pass at the French GP, but whether it will be the same wing as that used at prior GP’s, who knows ... (although I bet Horner will say it is the same).

#30 Ivanhoe

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:37

Urgh - I hate saying, but the fact that it passes the test doesn't mean that the part fulfills has adhered to the intent of the rule. It's just passing the test, which is being shown to be inadequate at testing for unwanted flexing. Which is why the FIA states that it reserves the right to revise the tests whenever it bloody well feels like it. 

However, I'm conflicted on this subject. I applaud RBR for (once again) working in the grey area of the rules and trying to gain an advantage. If it passes the test and it still flexes, then that's just too bad. It passed the test and given the minimal advantage if gives, I don't think RBR should be penalized straight away for this. I'd prefer a new ruling much later in the season or a new test for next season. As it stands, I fear it will rob us of a closer contest between Merc and RBR if the FIA sufficiently revise the test in short period of time. 

I think we're saying the same thing. Legally, the load and deflection tests are exhaustively described in article 3.9. As long as RBR are within the limits mentioned in that article they are in compliance with the Technical Regulations. Only until FIA comes with further tests and the RB rear wing no longer passes the test, the wing becomes illegal. Until then, they can drive it, because it's a legal device.


Edited by Ivanhoe, 12 May 2021 - 12:42.


#31 femi

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:38

Read the rules and the article. Certain aerodynamic parts are subject to FIA load tests. It's evident that this wing passed these FIA tests and are therefor compliant with the current regulations. Article 9.3.3 of the Technical Regulations however stipulate the following:

 

 

 

That's what they're envisaging now. Until then the Red Bull wing is compliant with the Technical Regulations.

I totally agree that RB didn't violate the rules as it stood, I don't think anyone accused them of doing that as far as I know. I think it has to more to do more with the spirit of the rules. Do I think it is fair, not at all, but as a Merc fan, well... Seriously, I was going to even suggest that once rules are in place, it should remain so for the rest of that season, but then it occurred to me that FIA might be concerned about costs as other teams might have a go themselves - unless the said part is homogolated.


Edited by femi, 12 May 2021 - 12:44.


#32 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:40

But you were ok with the PU modes being banned mid-season last year, and ok with RBR's lobbying to have them banned, right?

 

And before you get miffed with me, just let me say that I'm saying that with my tongue firmly in my cheek. I don't really care if you're being inconsistent, I'm just slightly amused and hope you see the humor in it too. I perfectly understand that you fear RBR being hobbled and robbing us of a great fight this season, because I sort of feel the same way too. 

There's a part of me that agrees that the rules should be enforced, and RBR should be trying to work within those rules. And if those rules are being broken/bent, then the FIA should step in to make sure everybody is playing fairly. But there's another part of me that thinks that, even if they are pushing the rules (after all, they meet the testing criteria) is it really so bad? It's not a magic bullet and we're in desperate need of competition.

 

This is the first season I can remember in a long while that I've been excited about, because I get to watch two rather good drivers going head-to-head for the win. I don't want that taken away from me because of a small rule infringement. 

 

Because let's be honest - if RBR DO have a bendy rear wing, it's probably the thing that's helping balance out Merc's seeming race pace advantage. 

Was the PU mode banning because of lobbying?  Seriously don't recall.  Although I wouldn't lump that in the same group as trying to insinuate that a rival is doing something illegal, tbh.  I mean, if the teams complained that the tyres weren't fit for purpose (just as an example) and wanted ones less thermally sensitive then I also wouldn't class that the same either, if you get what I mean.

 

Agree with all the rest, really.  I've greatly enjoyed watching HAM and VER fight it out and would be very frustrated if that got taken away from us.  Just hope it's not the case, really.  It's the battle we've been crying out for for a while!



#33 GreenMachine

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:40

We needed a new thread on this?  Should have just updated the old one! :rolleyes:



#34 femi

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:41

by behind the scenes I mean that teams lobby the FIA or otherwise make public noises to get the FIA to focus attention on their rivals.  Not a fan

I get you. I am not a fan of that at all either. It is not honorable in my opinion. My point was Merc didn't go about whispering into FIA ears. Totto discussed this with CH and I guess he informed him of the next course of action. It was all above board in this case I reckon.



#35 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:41

As the Red Bull rear wing has passed the FIA's tests, it is legal. I don't see what there is that could "turn out".

well then to be fair there'd be no point in an investigation?



#36 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:42

I get you. I am not a fan of that at all either. It is not honorable in my opinion. My point was Merc didn't go about whispering into FIA ears. Totto discussed this with CH and I guess he informed him of the next course of action. It was all above board in this case I reckon.

yes, sorry if it came across like that I don't mean behind the scenes as in cloak and dagger.  I just mean away from the racing and the public eye



#37 thefinalapex

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:44

Someone should get you a list of all things that were Banned on the Merc's over the years..... :rotfl:

 

And those things are?



#38 uzsjgb

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:44

well then to be fair there'd be no point in an investigation?

 

What investigation? It seems you have misunderstood the situation.



#39 shure

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:47

What investigation? It seems you have misunderstood the situation.

quite possibly.  Wouldn't be the first time!

 

Poor choice of wording on my part.  They are launching a clampdown, which to me suggests that they are targeting specifics and will be scrutinising a team or teams quite thoroughly.  no reason to clamp down if there's nothing to clamp down on



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#40 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:53

And those things are?

I think we both know what those things are.....😉

#41 Augurk

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 12:56

I think we both know what those things are.....

Ah right, the Difficult question Avoidance System that was banned from their car. Yeah fair play, you've got us. 


Edited by Augurk, 12 May 2021 - 12:56.


#42 ANF

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:01

A video of said flexing?

https://youtu.be/5FB2Qy5jfgY?t=562

#43 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:12

Ah right, the Difficult question Avoidance System that was banned from their car. Yeah fair play, you've got us.

I think we've both been on this forum long
enough to know What a disengeous question is...

#44 LightningMcQueen

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:15

And those things are?


FRIC suspension
DAS
Cutting a big chunk out of the floor to protect “tyres”

But this is a part of F1. RBR have suffered over the years, the blown diffuser and deliberately engineering of wings to pass tests but deflect anyway is one RBR have been trying for years.

#45 NixxxoN

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:16

Red Bull has been doing this since around 10 years ago in the V8+Vettel era


Edited by NixxxoN, 12 May 2021 - 13:16.


#46 TheAviator

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:20

Looks like it bends quite a bit. I am having some serious doubts about Hondas actual power ranking now all things considered. Wouldnt surprise me if they are ~15hp behind Merc and just touch ahead of Ferrari.

#47 thefinalapex

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:26

Cutting a big chunk out of the floor to protect “tyres”
 

 

That one is bullshit, By that you also agree then that 2019 FW changes where made to aid Mercedes as that effected high rake cars much more? 



#48 Clatter

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:29

This is clearly following a complaint from Merc vs Red Bull.  Not a great fan of this behind the scenes sniping to try to hobble opponents.  

 

That said, I'd be very surprised and not a little disappointed if it turns out RB's rear wing breaches the rules.  I mean, you'd think they would have learned from the last time so it would be a little dumb to be caught out twice for the same error.  I really hope it's not the case because if it is then bang goes any competition this year.  Again.

 


Did they breach the wing rules? The test loads were increased, but I don't remember it making any difference.

#49 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:32

I’ve never understood this hunting down of aeroelasticity. It’s impossible to have a fully rigid structure. All they’re doing is forcing the teams to spend more money and add more weight to their wings.

 

Cause they don't want a development war around moveable aero.

 

F1 could not even stomach Dual Action Steering and they would allow moveable aero????    A way lesser issue for F1.  Its ridiculous how its still gone on allowed.  That video of the rear wing deflection is crazy.  Then you have Button explicitly admitting BAR-Honda had it way back in the day and how much of influence it had in lap time.

 

I don't see how its wise for F1 to allow this to continue.  If team start going down that path and creating parts that are that flexible by design, there could also be a safety issue if the rear wings start flying off as a result of pushing the boundaries.



#50 Paco

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Posted 12 May 2021 - 13:35

Looks like it bends quite a bit. I am having some serious doubts about Hondas actual power ranking now all things considered. Wouldnt surprise me if they are ~15hp behind Merc and just touch ahead of Ferrari.

 

I was under the impression they just brought it out in Spain for the 1st time this season.. perhaps I'm off.

 

Power ranking is kind of hard in that tight a margin since a lot has to do with with how much dF they are running, how much torque they can pull on the tires etc.

 

Most of the performance difference we are seeing In My Opinion is how you push the tires then engine performance.  If anything, that Honda still looks to be up on power not down on power to the Mercedes.  There does seem to be some energy store challenges still for Honda but that ICE, Turbo seem ahead.


Edited by Paco, 12 May 2021 - 13:36.