85 replies to this topic

[RekF1]

Max did a bit of weaving at Barcelona to try and reduce the slipstreaming from Lewis before being overtaken. I think one of the MacLaren drivers did the same earlier, and was warned for it(Possibly DR, with SP behind). The expert commentators on Sky and channel 4 were absolutely fine with it, and even questioned the reasoning of the warning.

That's it really. I guess I was disgruntled slightly last Sunday. I don't like that word because I've never declared myself gruntled when something cool happens.

Anyway, this is how the pros used to view this sort of defending. From an incident or two involving Lewis back in Malaysia 2010.

Runbens Barrichello:"It wasn't right," said the Brazilian, acknowledging that the McLaren driver is likely to argue that the moves were not made under braking.

He said: "But the drivers have an agreement, sort of an agreement - obviously a verbal agreement, nothing that has been signed - that you should move only once during the protection of your line.

"For me it was a Formula Ford thing. It shouldn't have been done, to be honest,"

Kubica wasn't so happy either:"The way he drove was not right -- I thought something should have been done. According to the rules, I think there should have been a penalty.

"Reading the regulations, I'm clear. Watching Malaysia, I'm not so clear,"

https://www.drive.co...inning-renault/

How do you F1nja's grunt about any of these things?

[Jovanotti]

Weaving to break the slip stream is not the same as changing line more than once when trying to defend, just saying.

Edit:
Sorry didn't read carefully. Weaving as Max did in Barcelona is fine by me, changing lines during close defense is not.

Edited by Jovanotti, 17 May 2021 - 18:21.

[RekF1]

Weaving to break the slip stream is not the same as ch anging line more than once when covering an overtake.

Yeah I know. You just TLDR'd my post. Is weaving okay? I think all instances were to break the slip.

Edited by RekF1, 17 May 2021 - 18:15.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I was baffled by Race Control's message. Squeezing drivers off the track is perfectly ok these days, but a weave when more than 5-10 car lengths in front warrants a RC message?

 

I am perfectly ok with trying to break the slipstream.

[Anderis]

I seem to recall Ricciardo got a warning for trying to break slipstream in a way that seemed perfectly fine and not dangerous to me. No sudden changes of line, just smooth movements at the time where the other car was far enough that there wasn't a risk of contact or scaring the other driver into doing something dangerous in reaction.

I remember Hulkenberg doing something similar in GP2 in 2009 ad well as in F1 in 2010 and he was never in trouble for that.

 

That's a clever driving that I wish should be allowed, especially now when DRS allow you to overtake from so far back or with such ease. At least you can see those drivers using their brains during races and figuring out how to give themselves a small edge. Something I enjoy seeing.

[ANF]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

[Peeko]

I don't think there is anything clever about it (just like there isn't anything clever about using the slipstream) and I think it looks silly. Online racing stuff. Imagine cars up an down the grid doing this every lap from the start of a race to the end.

[PayasYouRace]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

 

That was perfectly fine. Trying to break a tow should always be fine.

 

Reactive moves are unsporting and dangerous. That was not.

[Muppetmad]

I'm not a fan of it, but must admit I'm inclined to let it slide for the last ten laps of the Indy 500.

 

Edit: to be clear, I mean weaving to break the tow. Reactive defences are a definite no-no.

Edited by Muppetmad, 17 May 2021 - 19:35.

[P123]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

 

I don't know- that has always looked comical, but the reactionary moves were Petrov following him.  He wanted the tow.  Although I do get the 'one move to defend' was stretched over the limit there.  But entirely forgotten in all that is that Petrov did the exact same thing to Hamilton a lap prior to that on the back straight in an attempt to keep him behind.  So I think a bit of payback was being dished out in that instance.

 

I didn't see an issue with what Max did in Spain.  

 

Late jinks or moves to defend, especially under braking or when another car is fully committed are many times worse.

[Hellenic tifosi]

I'm not a fan of it, but must admit I'm inclined to let it slide for the last ten laps of the Indy 500.

 

Edit: to be clear, I mean weaving to break the tow. Reactive defences are a definite no-no.

 

Exactly!

 

Hamilton might be extreme in the video, but the driver behind isn't FORCED to react, he has plenty of time and space to decide that he wants to follow Hamilton.

 

edit: Hamilton isn't defending against Petrov, he isn't squeezing Petrov, he simply tries to break the slipstream. 

Edited by Hellenic tifosi, 17 May 2021 - 19:39.

[RekF1]

I was baffled by Race Control's message. Squeezing drivers off the track is perfectly ok these days, but a weave when more than 5-10 car lengths in front warrants a RC message?
 
I am perfectly ok with trying to break the slipstream.

yeah that's the point. But also RC got involved when it was against a RedBull, yet said nothing when they did the same.

Personally, if someone weaves to break the slipstream, it's optional for the driver behind to mirror them so I have no problem with it. It's just that the stewards are once again inconsistent.

[Stephane]

It's part of racing, and ok by me. But race control thinks otherwise nowadays.

 

Thing is, it can be really dangerous becauuse of the speed difference induced by the DRS, if the cars change line at the same time. Maybe this is why they don't allow.

[Hellenic tifosi]

It becomes dangerous when the driver in front squeezes the driver who tries to pass.

[timmy bolt]

Imo it might not always be dangerous but if you're doing it to stop an overtake it doesn't matter how far back the attacking car is, either you're allowed one move or more than one move but that shouldn't change depending on distance.

This is different from a reactive move which I'd say def shouldn't be allowed.

My fear is if breaking the tow becomes the norm we just get this constantly lap after lap from the whole field once the car behind gets into a position where it gets a tow. It's not particularly intelligent racing, every driver can do it easily. It's just not been the done thing after it was largely stamped out following Hamilton's 2010 outing.

[Nigol]

Just a quick remark. The weaving looks ridiculous in this camera shot. If we had an onboard view from the same clip, it wouldn’t look as bad

Edited by Nigol, 17 May 2021 - 21:26.

[ThrottleBlib]

Breaking slipstream is defending, weaving on a straight is not. 

Spot the difference.. 

 

No point defending against DRS, anyway.

 

Funny Max get mentioned against as the bad guy again, lol ! 

 

Edit: what's 'nostalgic' about this question?.. The rules are clear.

Edited by ThrottleBlib, 17 May 2021 - 21:42.

[Gambelli]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

 

 

I remember this one (and was going to bring it up but you nailed it first), and my reaction at the time was exactly as you said, ridiculous!  I don't know about Petrov doing it first, I don't recall seeing that, but I had never seen it like that in F1 before, big big weaves on a really wide main straight.  I really couldn't stand Hamilton back then so that may have been a part of why I didn't like it....

 

However...

 

I have to admit, when DR did it last race, it also made me cringe... I guess there's nothing wrong with it per se, but it just looks wrong at this level, so at least I'm being consistent with my thoughts on it given I'm a DR fan.

 

Then again, you see people weaving in all categories on restarts after safety cars, not as they come up to the restart as thats not allowed, but once they go green, and the cars are more bunched then, so yeah, I think it just looks a little worse than it is.

 

But, happy for RC to stamp it out, if everyone did it on every straight eventually someone will misjudge and we'll have a Webber/Valencia situation...

[balmybaldwin]

Ithink the only problem that should be looked at is where the lead car moves AFTER the follow car (i.e. reacting to defend)  and only if the cars are within a couple of lengths of each other e.g. if above petrov didn't follow ham for one of the moves, and then Ham moved back to block in the example above, or like the way max moved back on Riccardo and took the air off his wing in Baku

[Myrvold]

edit: Hamilton isn't defending against Petrov, he isn't squeezing Petrov, he simply tries to break the slipstream. 

 

Isn't "breaking the tow" by definition a defensive move?

[balmybaldwin]

Isn't "breaking the tow" by definition a defensive move?

I would argue it is more an "offensive" move - you are trying to take something away from your competitor (the tow) 

[Myrvold]

I would argue it is more an "offensive" move - you are trying to take something away from your competitor (the tow) 

 

But it is in relation to not losing a position?

 

I mean, going defensive on the inside, could also be argued to be an offensive move, as you are "taking away" the inside line?

 

Yes, I am nitpicking here, but I do feel like weaving is making more than one defensive move. Felt like that back then in Malaysia, and still think the same.

Edited by Myrvold, 17 May 2021 - 23:17.

[noikeee]

This is a tough one because I feel like breaking the tow should be legal, yet making several defensive moves shouldn't, and I can't think of a very satisfactory way to distinguish between the two. It's all about whether it's a reactive move or not, but also about how big is the closing speed between both cars. When the attacking car gets a big DRS slipstream, it might be plain dangerous to even attempt to break the tow.

[CoolBreeze]

That was perfectly fine. Trying to break a tow should always be fine.

 

Reactive moves are unsporting and dangerous. That was not.

 

Not fine when you are approaching the braking point. 

[Celloman]

That was perfectly fine. Trying to break a tow should always be fine.

 

Reactive moves are unsporting and dangerous. That was not.

If that move by Hamilton was fine, drivers should and would be doing it on every straight if they had a car even remotely closely behind as the slipstream gain with these modern cars is huge. I'm not sure if it's a written rule, but it's something drivers go through with race director before the race and would have been taken up there. Otherwise, Hamilton and Ricciardo would never have received a warning for doing that.
 

[ARTGP]

This is a tough one because I feel like breaking the tow should be legal, yet making several defensive moves shouldn't, and I can't think of a very satisfactory way to distinguish between the two. It's all about whether it's a reactive move or not, but also about how big is the closing speed between both cars. When the attacking car gets a big DRS slipstream, it might be plain dangerous to even attempt to break the tow.

 

I'm leaning towards a hard no on this and you are hinting at all the same reservations that I have. The drivers aren't doing it just to break the tow. They are purposely exploiting a grey area to block the track and allow more defensive moves.

 

The logic of trying to spin it like, "acceptable unless it's reactionary" breaks down also.  If we pretend the leading driver doesn't have any mirrors, and has no capacity to be aware and therefore "react", would it be acceptable for him to swerve left and right across the width of the track when there are other cars around him potentially running up behind him? Of course not. It's poor manners, ignorant driving and even dangerous despite not being reactionary. If you are weaving, it has the same effect of cutting off any path of the chasing driver and basically playing chicken hoping the guy behind has to jump out of the throttle to avoid you. It doesn't matter if it's in the brake zone or in the middle of the Kemmel straight.  It doesn't matter if it's reactionary or it's complete ignorance. You shouldn't be doing it. 

 

It's like goal keeping. Blindly run left and right fast enough and you'll block the path of the incoming ball. Same effect with a car weaving left and right.

Edited by ARTGP, 18 May 2021 - 04:30.

[PayasYouRace]

This is a tough one because I feel like breaking the tow should be legal, yet making several defensive moves shouldn't, and I can't think of a very satisfactory way to distinguish between the two. It's all about whether it's a reactive move or not, but also about how big is the closing speed between both cars. When the attacking car gets a big DRS slipstream, it might be plain dangerous to even attempt to break the tow.

 

There's an easy way to distinguish the two. Breaking the tow has the defender moving out of the way of the attacker. Blocking moves have the defender moving into the way of where the attacker is going, or where he thinks the attacker wants to go.

[PayasYouRace]

If that move by Hamilton was fine, drivers should and would be doing it on every straight if they had a car even remotely closely behind as the slipstream gain with these modern cars is huge. I'm not sure if it's a written rule, but it's something drivers go through with race director before the race and would have been taken up there. Otherwise, Hamilton and Ricciardo would never have received a warning for doing that.
 

 

Yes, they should be doing it more often. I can't fathom why they don't.

 

Those warnings are excellent examples of RC not knowing what they're doing, something we have umpteen examples of.

[Heyli]

Yes, they should be doing it more often. I can't fathom why they don't.

 

Those warnings are excellent examples of RC not knowing what they're doing, something we have umpteen examples of.

I am guessing it has a downside too though...? Speed? Tyre life? 

[TheFish]

Late moves are far worse than this imo. Max not getting a penalty on that defence against Kimi a few years ago still baffles me.

 

Breaking the tow is only dangerous if the driver behind is about to move out to make a pass. The way Max did it in Spain was absolutely fine imo.

[ARTGP]

They should use a time rule to define it.  If the trailing car is more than say 1 second behind, then fair game to the leader to weave however he likes, no matter how silly it looks. But if the trailing car is within say 3 tenths of a second, then the weaving starts to become outright blocking. The trailing car can't set a path because the leading car is crossing the track constantly. Whether it's a brake zone or the straight.

Edited by ARTGP, 18 May 2021 - 08:13.

[PlatenGlass]

There's an easy way to distinguish the two. Breaking the tow has the defender moving out of the way of the attacker. Blocking moves have the defender moving into the way of where the attacker is going, or where he thinks the attacker wants to go.

Exactly. Breaking the tow might be seen as defensive in a wide definition of the term, but it's blocking that the one-move rule was made for.

[Clatter]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

 

What was actually dangerous about it though? The following driver wasn't forced to follow him across the track.

[Pimpwerx]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

I don't think DRS has anything to do with it, and I'm not going to put words in your mouth. However, if it's not fine there, then it shouldn't have been fine at Barcelona. IMO, it's either allowed, or it's not. During the race, I was miffed because of this very reason. I remember Lewis getting a lot of stick for this weaving, and I thought he got a penalty back then, but I might be wrong. All I know is that the precedent was set back then to not allow this kind of behavior, so I was surprised there wasn't a bigger deal about last Sunday.

[Peat]

IIRC, Norris made a very late defensive move during the Spanish GP that I find more objectional than breaking the tow. 

[Sterzo]

What is the argument in favour of allowing weaving on the straight? Can't see one. And while the stewards could distinguish between breaking the tow and blocking in most instances, there'll be some borderline ones.

 

Even the one move rule is too lenient. Here we all are grumbling about how difficult overtaking is these days, yet accepting that drivers are expected to defend in a way they wouldn't when passing was more common.

[PlatenGlass]

What is the argument in favour of allowing weaving on the straight? Can't see one.

Stuff is allowed unless it's explicitly banned. What's the reason for banning it?

[NixxxoN]

Stuff is allowed unless it's explicitly banned. What's the reason for banning it?

It's dangerous

[Clatter]

It's dangerous

 

What is dangerous about it?

[NixxxoN]

What is dangerous about it?

Unpredictable weaving from the car in front means a potential crash incoming with the one behind trying to pass.

If instead of two, there are more than two cars in the "train" then its even more dangerous because the third car (the one behind all) can't even see what the first car is doing so its even more likely to collide with the one in the middle.

You only need to do some sort of virtual racing to realise this. Weaving is definitely dangerous and unsporting, and should never be allowed.

[RekF1]

It's dangerous

It can be. Who would you blame tho? Obviously it's optional following the tow. If the guy behind takes a better racing line instead of shadowing for the benefit of slipstream this wouldn't happen. The thing I don't get is that this was quite strongly condemned in 2010. In Spain it was another Masi murder of the rules. So I don't understand if it's okay or not.

Also late blocking IS allowed in the rules. There's nothing late going on in the instances we're speaking about.

Edited by RekF1, 18 May 2021 - 13:35.

[NixxxoN]

It can be. Who would you blame tho? Obviously it's optional following the tow. If the guy behind takes a better racing line instead of shadowing for the benefit of slipstream this wouldn't happen. The thing I don't get is that this was quite strongly condemned in 2010. In Spain it was another Masi murder of the rules. So I don't understand if it's okay or not.

Also late blocking IS allowed in the rules. There's nothing late going on in the instances we're speaking about.

You blame the driver doing the weaving, for dangerous driving. It can still be dangerous for the driver behind, even if not following the tow.

Late blocking is a different matter and I think it should not be allowed either, dangerous too (see Red Bulls collision @ Baku 2018)

Edited by NixxxoN, 18 May 2021 - 13:45.

[Otaku]

I don't think this was OK.

 

 

It was in the pre-DRS days and it made overtaking impossible.

 

I find blatant weaving like this ridiculous, unsporting and dangerous.

 

In my view, that is perfectly fine. It's not blocking! Actually it's the car behind that is following the car in front. No one was forcing Petrov to follow Hamilton. He could have just gone straight.

[RekF1]

You blame the driver doing the weaving, for dangerous driving. It can still be dangerous for the driver behind, even if not following the tow.
Late blocking is a different matter and I think it should not be allowed either, dangerous too (see Red Bulls collision @ Baku 2018)

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying there's obviously an ownership issue here. Does the person following have the right to the benefits of a slipstream? Does the leading driver have the right to break the tow?

That's why I apportioned responsibility to the chaser. If anything, Max showed how to do it, and also why you shouldn't do it. He didn't block Lewis at any point but you could see debris from Lewis' onboard camera where Max WEAVED off line.

If the following driver chooses to shadow someone weaving on a straight, they're both weaving.

[NixxxoN]

I'm not blaming anyone. I'm saying there's obviously an ownership issue here. Does the person following have the right to the benefits of a slipstream? Does the leading driver have the right to break the tow?

That's why I apportioned responsibility to the chaser. If anything, Max showed how to do it, and also why you shouldn't do it. He didn't block Lewis at any point but you could see debris from Lewis' onboard camera where Max WEAVED off line.

If the following driver chooses to shadow someone weaving on a straight, they're both weaving.

The leading driver has the right to break the tow, but not by moving left and right non stop, can still do so with only moving once as it should be done. This should be considered erratic and potentially dangerous driving

 

-.27.4 of F1 sporting regs: At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person

 

I dont know why Max was "allowed" to do what he did, without any penalty nor any warning, really. Probably because he lost the lead and race win and they let it go

 

And I dont think you can blame both exactly the same just because both weave. The other behind is just trying to get slipstream, if the one in front doesnt weave the one behind won't either, its more the responsibility of the one in front. By the way, even if you dont follow the slipstream of the weaving car, you will eventually need to "dodge it" if it weaves towards you, wouldn't you? It's plain and simply dangerous/erratic driving

Edited by NixxxoN, 18 May 2021 - 14:19.

[Ivanhoe]

I fail to see how what Verstappen did qualifies as erratic or dangerous driving. 

Edited by Ivanhoe, 18 May 2021 - 14:21.

[RekF1]

The leading driver has the right to break the tow, but not by moving left and right non stop, can still do so with only moving once as it should be done. This should be considered erratic and potentially dangerous driving
 
-.27.4 of F1 sporting regs: At no time may[/size] a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be [/size]deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person[/size]
 
I dont know why Max was "allowed" to do what he did, without any penalty nor any warning, really. Probably because he lost the lead and race win and they let it go
 
And I dont think you can blame both exactly the same just because both weave. The other behind is just trying to get slipstream, if the one in front doesnt weave the one behind won't either, its more the responsibility of the one in front

The only reason someone will continue to weave is if the person behind mirrors them. I've never mentioned weave this much in my life before speaking to you! Have you got your own weaving company?

[NixxxoN]

The only reason someone will continue to weave is if the person behind mirrors them. I've never mentioned weave this much in my life before speaking to you! Have you got your own weaving company?

Cool story bro

[Retrofly]

Weaving multiple times on the stright is a bit silly and does induce some added danager, imagine you're still mid-weave coming to the breaking zone, or what hapepns if you go 3 wide, Im ok with 1 weave to the dirty side of the track to try and break the initial tow. But doing it multiple time all the way down the straight, no.

 

Breaking/jinking in the breaking zone is a big no-no, there have been a few close calls recently.

[Clatter]

The leading driver has the right to break the tow, but not by moving left and right non stop, can still do so with only moving once as it should be done. This should be considered erratic and potentially dangerous driving

 

-.27.4 of F1 sporting regs: At no time may a car be driven unnecessarily slowly, erratically or in a manner which could be deemed potentially dangerous to other drivers or any other person

 

I dont know why Max was "allowed" to do what he did, without any penalty nor any warning, really. Probably because he lost the lead and race win and they let it go

 

And I dont think you can blame both exactly the same just because both weave. The other behind is just trying to get slipstream, if the one in front doesnt weave the one behind won't either, its more the responsibility of the one in front. By the way, even if you dont follow the slipstream of the weaving car, you will eventually need to "dodge it" if it weaves towards you, wouldn't you? It's plain and simply dangerous/erratic driving

 

I think weaving towards a driver is vastly different to weaving away.