83 replies to this topic

[Alan Lewis]

...or so the Independent is reporting.

[GazChed]

...among many others.

[Tim Murray]

Here’s the Guardian’s report:

https://www.theguard...er-dies-aged-81

[Myhinpaa]

An article with trailer for the upcoming documentary 'Mosley: It's Complicated'. UK release date, 9th of July.

 

https://www.filmstor...1 release date.

[cpbell]

Leaving aside his family, I always rather liked him as FIA President - I thought he dealt with the aftermath of Imola 1994 admirably.

[Red Socks]

One of the most - if not the most - brilliant people I have ever worked for.
Thanks Max !
RIP

[Charlieman]

I respect Max Mosley for his support of the Lotus team following the death of Jim Clark.

[Charlieman]

And whilst noting Max Mosley's assistance at a distressing weekend, I recall that he thumped a copper at a right wing demonstration and never told the truth.

 

https://www.dailymai...Road-march.html

[Eric Dunsdon]

I  always thought that it was nice  when he attended an anniversary of the Clubmans  category at Silverstone.

[Eastern]

Perhaps an indelicate suggestion, but a friend just asked whether we should have a whip-round for him?

[kayemod]

Max achieved much that was good in his life, but the mass media and human nature being what it is, he'll probably be remembered mostly for a somewhat dubious past, and what many of us would regard as a few bad things. Every one of us is a mixture of good and bad though, no-one is perfect, most of us improve with age, as probably did Max.

 

As a newly qualified barrister, he didn't earn much, so like many do, he took on additional part-time work, and back in the early 70s he was my law lecturer at university. He was good at that and he seemed like a good bloke, we liked him. I'll remember him for that, and also for being startlingly clever, though as far as I can recall, he never paid for a round when some of us met in the pub afterwards

[proviz]

One of the most - if not the most - brilliant people I have ever worked for.
Thanks Max !
RIP

 

Never worked for him but after some co-operation during a couple of decades and otherwise following his argumentations since the 70s I'll say without reservations that he was definitely one the most brilliant people I ever came across - that is including all the lawyer colleagues from my earlier life. Nobody could have dealt with the News the World mess like he did.

RIP

[Tom Glowacki]

Max achieved much that was good in his life, but the mass media and human nature being what it is, he'll probably be remembered mostly for a somewhat dubious past, and what many of us would regard as a few bad things. Every one of us is a mixture of good and bad though, no-one is perfect, most of us improve with age, as probably did Max.

 

As a newly qualified barrister, he didn't earn much, so like many do, he took on additional part-time work, and back in the early 70s he was my law lecturer at university. He was good at that and he seemed like a good bloke, we liked him. I'll remember him for that, and also for being startlingly clever, though as far as I can recall, he never paid for a round when some of us met in the pub afterwards

Did you ever meet a law professor who ever bought a round?

[chr1s]

And of course, as founder member of MARCH Engineering and their innovative "rent a drive" program, which enabled us to see some great drivers that we may otherwise never have heard of.  For that we should be thankful. RIP Max.

[Charlieman]

Nobody could have dealt with the News the World mess like he did.

Mosley is dead, so within the limits of TFN, I'll comment. I'll say a bit.

 

Max Mosley lied. He dressed up in a striped concentration camp uniform with his sex partners, and the symbolism of the uniform or the strict floggers were part of the game. It was all Nazi fetishism.

 

Wow. 

 

Which News of the World mess, proviz? The one with the editor and boyfriend dumping soft porn in a car park?

 

Mosley was a liar. 

[absinthedude]

Mosley is dead, so within the limits of TFN, I'll comment. I'll say a bit.

 

Max Mosley lied. He dressed up in a striped concentration camp uniform with his sex partners, and the symbolism of the uniform or the strict floggers were part of the game. It was all Nazi fetishism.

 

Wow. 

 

Which News of the World mess, proviz? The one with the editor and boyfriend dumping soft porn in a car park?

 

Mosley was a liar. 

 

Hmm...evidence? The only photos I saw, and I did look, were stills from a video one of the young ladies shot at the behest of the News Of The World (who paid her handsomely for it, and I am sure she never worked in the adult industry again). But they did not show him or anyone else in any kind of NAZI uniform. Sadomasochism is perfectly lawful and Max wasn't doing anything that thousands of others weren't doing at the exact same time.

 

As for the rest, his contributions to motor racing from founding March to his work at the FIA are many and far reaching, not to mention his contributions to road car safety. If I have a big criticism, it would be that he ran for FIA president on the grounds that he'd do one term....in the end he served three terms and became rather autocratic - though not as autocratic as his predecessor! 

[Charlieman]

Hmm...evidence? The only photos I saw, and I did look, were stills from a video one of the young ladies shot at the behest of the News Of The World (who paid her handsomely for it, and I am sure she never worked in the adult industry again). But they did not show him or anyone else in any kind of NAZI uniform. Sadomasochism is perfectly lawful and Max wasn't doing anything that thousands of others weren't doing at the exact same time.

Indeed, Max was permitted to get his rocks off.

 

But his Dad and family were mates of Herr Hitler, and when Max plays games, there aren't many funny games left over.

[cpbell]

Indeed, Max was permitted to get his rocks off.

 

But his Dad and family were mates of Herr Hitler, and when Max plays games, there aren't many funny games left over.

You were asked for evidence and have changed the subject, so evidently you were just throwing accusations without checking for accuracy first.

[charles r]

Whatever the speculation about his private proclivities, he achieved a great deal in his lifetime for motorsport and beyond and that to me far outweighs anything else. RIP Max.

[Zoe]

 

But his Dad and family were mates of Herr Hitler,

Yeah he really should have chosen different parents!

[F1matt]

Leaving aside his family, I always rather liked him as FIA President - I thought he dealt with the aftermath of Imola 1994 admirably.

 

 

Did he go to far? The temporary chicanes on every quick corner was going to far IMO. The sport had got away with it for years without a fatality and they were unlucky at Imola, the FIA didn't need to start chopping tracks up. 

[Macca]

RIP, and sympathy to his family.

He did many good things for motor-racing, and motoring, and his private life and political beliefs are not really relevant here.

However......I can’t forgive him for how he treated Chris Amon in 1970 and 1973, or for his vendetta against Ron Dennis, or for how he turned the USGP of 2005 into a farce.

I never met him, let alone worked with or against him, but he seemed to me the sort of person who could use his intellect to twist any argument to justify himself.

When he was FIA President he claimed in an interview to be not especially well-off, so I wonder what was the source of the (alleged) millions he gave to political and other groups in recent years.

Paul

[Dipster]

You were asked for evidence and have changed the subject, so evidently you were just throwing accusations without checking for accuracy first.

“He dressed up in a striped concentration camp uniform with his sex partners, and the symbolism of the uniform or the strict floggers were part of the game".

If true that does appear to indicate that there was a Nazi theme involved. Was the striped camp gear a Nazi uniform? But I can see the point.

Having visited Auschwitz, Yad Vashem, the Warsaw and Krakov ghetto areas and met survivors of the camps I can see how wearing such a uniform for fun is perhaps not what I would have done, consider wise or find in the best of taste. But, as has been said already, being human we all have flaws.

As for the rest of his career I only see the positives.

[cpbell]

"He dressed up in a striped concentration camp uniform with his sex partners, and the symbolism of the uniform or the strict floggers were part of the game" 

 

If true that does appear to indicate that there was a Nazi theme involved. Was the striped camp gear a Nazi uniform? But I can see the point.

 

Having visited Auschwitz, Yad Vashem, the Warsaw and Krakov ghetto areas and met survivors of the camps I can see how wearing such a uniform for fun is perhaps not what I would have done, consider wise or find in the best of taste.  But, as has been said already, being human we all have flaws. 

 

As for the rest of his career I only see the positives. 

 

  

It's already been established that the court found that he was wearing fetish "prisoner" uniform (presumably in the manner of old-fashioned striped prison gear) which was not similar to that worn by concentration camp victims, and that the dominatrix or whatever she would call herself was wearing generic "sexy prison guard" gear, which, AbsintheDude explains, is popular amongst those who enjoy acting out a scenario in their activities. 

[Gary Davies]

I see the McLaren acknowledgement of Mosley's passing is somewhat clipped - https://www.mclaren....ute-max-mosley/

 

I wonder why...

[BRG]

My sympathies to his family.

 

De mortuis nil nisi bonum - Max would doubtless appreciate the Latin saying.  But it is hard not to recall all the bad things he did.  There were many good things too of course, none of us is wholly bad or good.

[Dipster]

It's already been established that the court found that he was wearing fetish "prisoner" uniform (presumably in the manner of old-fashioned striped prison gear) which was not similar to that worn by concentration camp victims, and that the dominatrix or whatever she would call herself was wearing generic "sexy prison guard" gear, which, AbsintheDude explains, is popular amongst those who enjoy acting out a scenario in their activities. 

 

I have no interest in pursuing the point other than to say I question the wisdom of anybody with his father's history wearing such a uniform and putting themselves in a situation that might, and did, get people talking. 

[kayemod]

My sympathies to his family.

 

De mortuis nil nisi bonum - Max would doubtless appreciate the Latin saying.  But it is hard not to recall all the bad things he did.  There were many good things too of course, none of us is wholly bad or good.

 

There's a fairly damning article in today's Daily Telegraph, largely covering Max's constant efforts to neutralise any comment or criticism he didn't like.

[Myhinpaa]

 

https://www.tomorrow...age-2021-05-25/

[ensign14]

Did he go to far? The temporary chicanes on every quick corner was going to far IMO. The sport had got away with it for years without a fatality and they were unlucky at Imola, the FIA didn't need to start chopping tracks up. 

I think Wendlinger's accident at Monaco probably had more of an, um, impact.  It was really nothing more than reversion to mean, but the Great Unwashed was all over F1 being suddenly lethal, and, given rising Green sympathies, Mosley decided that he had to be seen to be doing something.

[jtremlett]

I don't care about what he got up to in private and I appreciate he did some good things at the FIA (and before) but I hated the way he ran things through conflict, the scandalous sale of the commercial rights to Bernie Ecclestone for a pittance and many of the changes to racing (and F1 in particular) that he instigated.

[Zoe]

 none of us is wholly bad or good.

Jim Steinman was Bad for Good though...

[F1matt]

I see the McLaren acknowledgement of Mosley's passing is somewhat clipped - https://www.mclaren....ute-max-mosley/

 

I wonder why...

 

 

Wasn't there some rumours of Ron Dennis obtaining the sex dungeon footage and passing it to the media? 

[dwh43scale]

I don't care about what he got up to in private and I appreciate he did some good things at the FIA (and before) but I hated the way he ran things through conflict, the scandalous sale of the commercial rights to Bernie Ecclestone for a pittance and many of the changes to racing (and F1 in particular) that he instigated.

 

There's good and bad in everyone - and everyone will have their view of who the heroes and villains are. However, unless there was something I missed, the sale of the commercial rights to Bernie Ecclestone for a pittance always seemed wrong. Did make the team owners and BCE very rich however.

[BRG]

 

https://www.tomorrow...age-2021-05-25/

I wish the Daily Telegraph wouldn't be so coy and would just say what they really think.

[Vitesse2]

Wasn't there some rumours of Ron Dennis obtaining the sex dungeon footage and passing it to the media? 

One of Mosley's allies hinted that McLaren might have been involved. Which Ron specifically denied at the time.

 

https://www.autocar....osley-sex-video

 

So let's leave it there, eh?

[ensign14]

On the other hand I would definitely believe that Mosley had something to do with unearthing the whole phone hacking deal.

[Myhinpaa]

 

 

This was among copies that Cathy Newman presented to Max Mosley in that interview, he refused to acknowledge them.

[Myhinpaa]

On the other hand I would definitely believe that Mosley had something to do with unearthing the whole phone hacking deal.

 

He definitely offered to underwrite the legal costs of people who at first brought cases against Murdoch's News International.

[Nick Planas]

Wasn't there some rumours of Ron Dennis obtaining the sex dungeon footage and passing it to the media? 

I seriously don't feel that this would have been Ron Dennis's style - I may be wrong (I don't know him) but I can't see him stopping to this sort of thing for vengeance.

[Myhinpaa]

The accusation came from Mosley's ally Radovan Novak of the Czech Automobile Association, he had to retract and apologise soon after.

 

His accusation came soon after the scandal broke, there was no way there had been conducted any serious investigation by then.

Mosley later put considerable effort into finding out who could have been behind the sting operation, strangely without result.

 

Whoever set it up and leaked it to NoW must have been very very careful and skilled.

 

Speculation about Ron Dennis being behind it was only because the way Mosley punished McLaren and Dennis for the alleged espionage, "Spygate" in '07

There's no doubt Mosley held a grudge and went out of his way to get back at Dennis, and humiliate him too. (photoshoot Spa '07)

 

That Ron Dennis had a role in the NoW sting operation was just pure speculation, based on the above. Novak got a bit carried away in defending his idol. 

[ensign14]

 

Whoever set it up and leaked it to NoW must have been very very careful and skilled.

 

 

Almost certainly it was the result of phone hacking that revealed Mosley's proclivities and then blackmail of one of those involved.
 

[john aston]

A welcome contrast to some of the binary and simplistic post mortems can be found in today's Times  . It's written by  the excellent Matthew Syed, who had got to know Mosley and is entitled ' Flawed , witty and humble '   , Recommended 

[opplock]

The 1962 letter to The Times is interesting. His protestation of innocence is contradicted by use of a two word phrase that should by then have been consigned to the dustbin of history. 

[Doug Nye]

The BRDC tribute, just arrived:

 

Max Mosley, one of the most influential personalities in motor racing of the last 50 years, died on Monday at the age of 81. He had been suffering from cancer. 

 

In a motor racing context Max will be best remembered for his time as President of the Federation Internationale de l’Automobile from 1993 to 2009 in succession to the controversial Jean-Marie Balestre. Together with Bernie Ecclestone, Max had masterminded the palace coup which overthrew the Frenchman’s regime and could be said to have converted the supremacy of British cars on the race tracks of the world into a dominant influence in the sport’s corridors of power.

 

The younger son of Sir Oswald Mosley Bt, the leader of the British Union of Fascists in the 1930s and later, after internment during World War Two, of the Union Movement, Max graduated from Christ Church College, Oxford in 1961 with a physics degree before qualifying as a barrister. This legal grounding, applied to a considerable intellect, was to stand him in very good stead in the years to come.

It was a casual visit to Silverstone while still at Oxford which sparked Max’s interest in motor racing to the extent that by 1966 he had acquired a U2 Mk 6 Clubmen’s Formula car with which he enjoyed considerable success the following year, winning some 12 races in 1967 in what was a very competitive category.

 

Just for fun Max also entered the U2 in the London Trophy, an international Formula 2 race at Crystal Palace. He finished last in his heat, which was won by Bruce McLaren, and failed to qualify for the final. However, his appetite for racing at this level had been whetted and so for 1968 he took the plunge into a full season of Formula 2, then as now one step below Formula 1, setting up the London Racing Team to run a couple of Brabham BT23Cs for himself and the very talented young British driver Chris Lambert. Max’s first race was at Hockenheim on 7th April 1968, a date never to be forgotten in the annals of motor racing as the occasion of Jim Clark’s fatal crash. After qualifying 18th, Max finished 11th in the first leg and ninth in the second to be classified ninth on aggregate but this paled into insignificance against the loss of the great Scottish driver.

 

At Thruxton a week later Max achieved his best-ever placing in a F2 race by finishing fourth in his heat behind Henri Pescarolo, Jackie Oliver and Alan Rees but he suffered engine failure in the final. Probably his best race of the year was the Monza Lottery for which he qualified 22nd and last but there were many who failed to make the cut. In a race riddled with accidents, Max kept clear of trouble and finished a worthy eighth. A few weeks later, personal tragedy struck the team when Chris Lambert was killed in a wholly unnecessary accident precipitated by Clay Regazzoni at Zandvoort. Max did not race again until the end of October when he finished a distant 14th in both legs of the Rome Grand Prix at Vallelunga. This was almost the end of Max’s racing career although he did acquire a Lotus 59B for 1969. The car was delivered late and convinced Max that he should retire from driving when its suspension fell apart on him during practice for the Eifelrennen on the Nurburgring Nordschleife and he was fortunate to emerge unscathed from a high speed accident. Two weeks earlier he had run the car with ballast in the Formula 1 category of the Madrid Grand Prix at Jarama, a curious non-championship affair for a mixed bag of obsolete F1 and a few current Formula 5000 and F2 cars from which he retired after qualifying fourth. After the Nurburgring crash Max did not race again so it could be said that his last race was in Formula 1!

 

For the remainder of 1969 Max was one of the prime movers behind the establishment of March, the name derived from the names of its founders Mosley, Alan Rees, Graham Coaker and Robin Herd and not Much Advertised Racing Car Hoax as some suggested. That March was not a hoax was first shown when the prototype Formula 3 car, the 693, appeared at Cadwell Park’s international in the hands of Ronnie Peterson who finished third in the final behind Tim Schenken’s Brabham and Howden Ganley’s Chevron, two of the established manufacturers who March were aiming to surpass, and not just in Formula 3. 

 

The first Formula 1 race of the 1970 season, the South African Grand Prix on 7th March, had five March 701s on the grid. Jackie Stewart in Ken Tyrrell’s independent car and Chris Amon in the works 701 set equal fastest qualifying times to share the front row with Jack Brabham’s new BT33 who went on to win the race after Jackie had led the early laps before tyre problems intervened and he was forced to drop back to finish third. Almost unbelievably, a March 701 won each of the next three Formula 1 races with Jackie taking the Brands Hatch Race of Champions, Chris Amon the BRDC Daily Express International Trophy and Jackie winning again in the Spanish Grand Prix. While the 701 was something of an all-purpose design by Robin Herd to establish March as a manufacturer across several racing categories, his 1971 creation looked radically different. It worked well and the 711 enabled Ronnie Peterson to finish as runner up in the Drivers’ World Championship in his first full season of F1 racing.

 

As the front man for the March team, Max soon crossed paths with Bernie Ecclestone who acquired the Brabham team from Ron Tauranac in 1971. And so began the ‘Bernie and Max’ show in Formula 1; while the other constructors within FOCA, the Formula One Constructors’ and Entrants’ Association, concentrated on running their teams and beating their rivals on the track, Bernie and Max took care of the bigger picture not only as regards financial matters but also safety. While FOCA flourished, the fortunes of March fluctuated through the 1970s in Formula 1 although in the lower categories the works and customer cars were notably successful as is evident from the many Marches to be seen in historic racing these days. In 1977 Max and Robin were content to sell the company’s F1 assets to ATS. Robin retained his shareholding in the company, which continued as a commercial racing car manufacturer, but Max sold his. However, he remained very much involved with FOCA and the many machinations which ensued as FOCA’s role in Formula 1 continued to strengthen. In 2015 Max published his autobiography which gives an illuminating account of the events of those years, how they shaped Formula 1 as it is today, and how Max rose to become President of, first, the Manufacturers’ Commission of the Federation Internationale du Sport Automobile (FISA) then of FISA and ultimately of the FIA itself in 1993.

 

During his four terms in office Max had a number of serious crises with which to contend, starting with the tragic deaths of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna at Imola in 1994 followed almost immediately by the very serious but fortunately not fatal accident to Karl Wendlinger at Monaco. Max led the way in tackling the challenge of making motor racing safer by introducing the Advisory Expert Group led by Professor Sid Watkins, reducing engine capacity and power, encouraging the development of the HANS device, requiring improvements in circuit safety and much more. He devoted considerable time to arguing the case for Formula 1’s need to be seen to be cutting its costs and conserving its consumption of natural resources. He was not afraid to court controversy but was always able to clearly articulate and explain the reasoning behind his actions and decisions. In 2008 he presided over the decision of the FIA World Motor Sports Council to impose a fine of $100million on the McLaren team for unlawfully using Ferrari’s intellectual property while the Renault team went unpunished for appearing to use some of McLaren’s IP. 

 

Away from the race track, one of the achievements of which Max was most proud was the promotion of ENCAP, the European New Car Assessment Programme. He was the recipient of many honours and awards for his work in relation to road safety including becoming a Chevalier of France’s Legion d’honour, a Commander of Monaco’s Order of St Charles and being awarded the Castrol Gold Medal by the Institute of the Motor Industry in 2000.

 

In 2008, still with 18 months of his fourth term to run, Max was the subject of a story in the now defunct News of the World which had somehow been alerted to his involvement in group sex acts. The World Council subsequently passed a vote of confidence in Max which enabled him to see out his term but his position and authority had been weakened. He successfully sued the newspaper and spent much of his time and personal fortune campaigning for greater privacy for private individuals at the hands of exploitative media, and underwriting the legal costs of victims.

 

In 1960 Max married his wife Jean. They had two sons, Alexander and Patrick but tragically Alexander died in 2009. In 1995 Max was elected as an Honorary Member of the BRDC. To Jean and Patrick Mosley and to their wider family and friends, the Club offers its most sincere condolences at the loss of a remarkable man whose contribution to the worlds of motoring, motor racing and the United Kingdom’s privacy laws should never be forgotten.

 

DCN

Edited by Doug Nye, 26 May 2021 - 11:01.

[ensign14]

 

Chris Lambert was killed in a wholly unnecessary accident precipitated by Clay Regazzoni at Zandvoort.

 

Is that the first official criticism of Regazzoni's part in the Lambert accident?

[Tim Murray]

Re the News of the World court case: here is Mr Justice Eady’s full judgement:

https://www.5rb.com/...4-July-2008.pdf

He dismissed the NotW’s suggestion that there was a Nazi theme to the activities, and hence that the disclosure was in the public interest, in these paragraphs:

232. I decided that the Claimant had a reasonable expectation of privacy in relation to sexual activities (albeit unconventional) carried on between consenting adults on private property. I found that there was no evidence that the gathering on 28 March 2008 was intended to be an enactment of Nazi behaviour or adoption of any of its attitudes. Nor was it in fact. I see no genuine basis at all for the suggestion that the participants mocked the victims of the Holocaust.

233. There was bondage, beating and domination which seem to be typical of S and M behaviour. But there was no public interest or other justification for the clandestine recording, for the publication of the resulting information and still photographs, or for the placing of the video extracts on the News of the World website – all of this on a massive scale. Of course, I accept that such behaviour is viewed by some people with distaste and moral disapproval, but in the light of modern rights-based jurisprudence that does not provide any justification for the intrusion on the personal privacy of the Claimant.

Let’s please let this one rest now.

[john winfield]

Is that the first official criticism of Regazzoni's part in the Lambert accident?

 

Yes, that's very strong. The inquiry exonerated Clay who, I believe, was lapping Chris at the time.

 

Edit. Although I see a further 1971 investigation was a little more critical of Clay's decision to overtake at Tunnel-Oost, but without blaming him for Chris's death.

Edited by john winfield, 26 May 2021 - 14:09.

[PCC]

Let’s please let this one rest now.

Surely we can let the whole NoW story rest. If you want to find reasons to criticize or dislike Mosley, his public life already offers plenty of ammunition: he was autocratic, vindictive and manipulative; according to many journalists he was often blatantly dishonest; he abused his power; his condescension toward people like Dennis and Stewart was odious, etc. Who cares about his sex life?

[F1matt]

Surely we can let the whole NoW story rest. If you want to find reasons to criticize or dislike Mosley, his public life already offers plenty of ammunition: he was autocratic, vindictive and manipulative; according to many journalists he was often blatantly dishonest; he abused his power; his condescension toward people like Dennis and Stewart was odious, etc. Who cares about his sex life?

 

 

Sadly that is what he will be remembered for by the general public. While he acted arrogant and pompous about the whole thing you had to feel sorry for his wife and family during this whole process. It cant of been easy for them. While he may have won his case against the NOTW strangely the video and the photographs are still on Google, I would have thought by winning a court ruling they would have been forced to take it down.