564 replies to this topic

[JBJ]

I could counter argue that reversing on track is not Daniels thing

[gillesfan76]

HAM wants BOT.  If Toto sez he wants RUS, then he might be looking for two drivers. 

 

talk about an unrealistic exaggeration.

[gillesfan76]

While I believe Lewis would beat anyone as a team mate, I also believe he really wants, as all other great drivers who have had a say on the that decision, a teammate he can easily beat. Schumacher was really happy with Irvine, Barrichello and Massa, Alonso needless to say, Senna got Prost out of McLaren, before getting vetoed by the latter at Williams, Häkkinen surely felt comfortable with Coulthard and so on.

 

IMO, that sentence "I want a strong team mate who pushes me to the limit" we've heard from some World Champions is pure BS. Beating your rivals is hard enough, no need to add extra pressure from your own team.

 

I don’t think it’s BS at all. I think genuinely quick drivers like team mates that can push them. But there is a clear distinction between being pushed, and a driver that is a genuine equal or greater threat. A team mate that can push them and bring out their best means the top drivers can eke out a tenth or two extra which can make the difference against a strong competitor from another team. They can benefit from their team mate’s data as well as a strong team mate is close behind and can be used strategically against the competition. That’s an advantage to the team and the lead driver. If the lead driver has a DNF, the team mate can take the win instead of the competitor.

 

Max for example genuinely wants and needs a strong team mate who can take points off Mercedes and give him the strategy flexibility to take wins in difficult circumstances. But he wouldn’t want a Lewis or a pre-retirement Alonso as his team mate who would be consistently fighting with him for the title and taking points from him.

 

I don’t think Lewis is afraid of any driver. I also don’t think he had the fall outs with Nico because of Nico’s speed, but rather the mind games. Nico was fast before, and even after Malaysia 2013 Lewis said Nico deserved the win instead of him. But I think it all changed at Monaco 2014. Lewis seems to be happy to fight it out based on speed and racecraft so I think the dodgy stuff at Monaco and the questionable wheel to wheel was the reason for the fallout.

[as65p]

IMO, that sentence "I want a strong team mate who pushes me to the limit" we've heard from some World Champions is pure BS. Beating your rivals is hard enough, no need to add extra pressure from your own team.

Precisely. Nowadays it often comes under the guise "I really value team harmony", which essentially translates to the same true message "I'm your man, gimme full support and a compliant teammate, then I'll deliver".

[gillesfan76]

If only Alonso was smart enough to learn that guise! 

[P123]

If only Alonso was smart enough to learn that guise! 

 

He's already had it, multiple times.  He just instead had the uncanny knack of picking the wrong teams at the wrong times where only his bank balance was growing rather than his trophy cabinet.

[P123]

Precisely. Nowadays it often comes under the guise "I really value team harmony", which essentially translates to the same true message "I'm your man, gimme full support and a compliant teammate, then I'll deliver".

 

And form a team bosses perspective, teams are far more harmonious with that setup.  With two similar drivers you get squabbles, such as with Perez and Ocon (repatedly!).

[as65p]

And form a team bosses perspective, teams are far more harmonious with that setup.  With two similar drivers you get squabbles, such as with Perez and Ocon (repatedly!).

Yeah, of course. Only when team bosses from the dark ages like RD and FW with racers egos themselves just wanted the best drivers in their cars was it any different. For a cool target-oriented mind, I believe the MS&RB setup at Ferrari or something like that is the gold standard. LH and VB was actually pretty close to it in the past.

[as65p]

If only Alonso was smart enough to learn that guise! 

The only difference with Alonso is that he doesn't pretend as much to want something else.

[absinthedude]

I think Alonso wants success. I am sure he joined Ferrari with the intention to take another title or two....and his return to McLaren was under the belief that he'd lead a new Honda partnered team to new success. 

[shure]

I don’t think it’s BS at all. I think genuinely quick drivers like team mates that can push them. But there is a clear distinction between being pushed, and a driver that is a genuine equal or greater threat. A team mate that can push them and bring out their best means the top drivers can eke out a tenth or two extra which can make the difference against a strong competitor from another team. They can benefit from their team mate’s data as well as a strong team mate is close behind and can be used strategically against the competition. That’s an advantage to the team and the lead driver. If the lead driver has a DNF, the team mate can take the win instead of the competitor.

 

Max for example genuinely wants and needs a strong team mate who can take points off Mercedes and give him the strategy flexibility to take wins in difficult circumstances. But he wouldn’t want a Lewis or a pre-retirement Alonso as his team mate who would be consistently fighting with him for the title and taking points from him.

 

I don’t think Lewis is afraid of any driver. I also don’t think he had the fall outs with Nico because of Nico’s speed, but rather the mind games. Nico was fast before, and even after Malaysia 2013 Lewis said Nico deserved the win instead of him. But I think it all changed at Monaco 2014. Lewis seems to be happy to fight it out based on speed and racecraft so I think the dodgy stuff at Monaco and the questionable wheel to wheel was the reason for the fallout.

Good post overall and I agree with you for the most part.  I do think the mind games were shared between the Merc drivers and Lewis has shown he's not averse to that with someone he considers a threat.  It wasn't a hero and villain scenario there.

 

But yeah, agree that ultimately drivers like Max and Lewis want a strong #2 who can push them and make them work for it (more than one who just makes up the numbers), just not one strong enough to properly challenge them.  That tends to be where team harmony takes a hit.

[shure]

Yes, but I find it a bit distasteful that teams now feel that they should grass up other drivers to the officials. McLaren were straight on the phone to Masi complaining about the spin and crying that one of their crew COULD HAVE BEEN collected in the spin. Making light heart of it afterwards is just two faced IMO.

Look at that - we agree 100% 

[Clatter]

Yes, but I find it a bit distasteful that teams now feel that they should grass up other drivers to the officials. McLaren were straight on the phone to Masi complaining about the spin and crying that one of their crew COULD HAVE BEEN collected in the spin. Making light heart of it afterwards is just two faced IMO.

Like reporting stuff is something new. And once the incident has ended with no one injured I really don't see a problem with taking the mickey.

[shure]

and that is very true, like most drivers. But there is a balance to be struck. Do you want to have bragging points for beating your teammate to P2 in the title? Or do you want to go for P1?  If Hamilton had a teammate as strong as him in that second seat this year, would he be sitting just 11 points back from Max?  Like those seasons alongside Button and Alonso, they stole wins from one another and Lewis arguably lost championships in '07 and atleast one of the years between '10 and '12 due to the wins FA, JB took instead of himself.

In fairness, though, Lewis has beaten all comers (yes, he's been beaten by team mates too but he invariably comes out on top in the end), including some pretty strong opposition, so he can point to his CV and say it's not just words.

 

Overall I agree though that he wouldn't want a Max or Alonso there.  Pretty sure he said something on those lines a few years ago when the inevitable Alonso rumours were around.  Because while I am sure he's confident that he can take on all comers, I'm equally sure that when he says he wants a challenge he doesn't mean one who's actually a threat, like those names mentioned would potentially be.  But tbh it'd be a bit silly if he did and I don't think comments he might make about welcoming any opposition should be taken too literally

[shure]

Like reporting stuff is something new. And once the incident has ended with no one injured I really don't see a problem with taking the mickey.

In fairness the incident had already ended with no injury before they complained to the stewards.  Agree that making light of it is fine, but when paired with the indignation in the complaint I do think it's a bit duplicitous.  And I like McLaren!