29 replies to this topic

[Darren Galpin]

At least twice now, Simon Arron has put Ralph De Palma up for inclusion in the Motor Sport Hall of Fame, yet he never gets put forward for the vote, mainly because they seem to be highly biased towards the periods that people can remember watching, rather than accurately reflecting contributions or achievements in the sport. But De Palma was one of the few early pioneers who raced over a sustained period of time without suffering severe injuries forcing withdrawal from the sport. Here are some interesting "facts", to be taken with a small amount of salt, which are quoted in the Salt Lake Tribune (ah, now that was an unintended pun - but I've started so I'll continue on....), 24th January 1928:

 

1) By the 24th January 1928, De Palma had competed in 500 races.

2) In total race mileage, De Palma had covered a distance of one and a half times around the globe

3) Bill Wellman estimated that in the 25 years that De Palma had been competing, he had earned $1 million (in 1928 dollars of course).

 

De Palma won the 1915 Indy 500, and finished second in the 1921 French Grand Prix. At the end of his career in 1936, it was estimated that he had competed in 2889 races, across both the US and Europe. Apart from the fact that anyone who would have seen him race is dead by now, what more does a driver have to do to be recognised? Mr Arron made the case well before, but I think we need a court of appeal......

[Michael Ferner]

Oh, those Hall of Fame things...

 

Several (actually, many) years ago, I remarked within earshot of someone deeply involved with the National (USA) Sprint Car Hall of Fame that I thought it was a travesty that Bill Cummings was not included in their roster, and the person subsequently encouraged me to put forward an official request, complete with a short (?) resumé of his career, to which I retorted that he was missing my point: someone of Cummings's stature wouldn't need a recommendation, least of all by me. That conversation didn't get very much farther, but at least someone listening in took me aside a little while later and explained: they are not interested in "dead history" - Halls of Fame do revel in admitting living members, with all the pomp and circumstance that goes with an induction, but are completely (and I mean: COMPLETELY) ignorant and blasé about deceased heroes of our sport.

 

My advice to Simon, and to you, Darren: let it go... it's not worth the effort.

[Michael Ferner]

Forgot to mention: the ONLY way to get a deceased driver inducted is to find a LIVING relative, who they can invite for the ceremony. You see, it's more important to them to sell tickets to friends and relatives who want to see the ceremony, than to have a representative roster of inductees. That's why they're scraping the bottom and inducting Joe Bloggs on the premise that he won four track championships in his thirty-year career of racing at Hoochie Coochie Speedway, while ignoring true greats of the sport, like de Palma or Cummings. I've long since stopped caring, and stopped refering to any Hall of Fame because they basically all function by the same principle. It's a shame, because I really like the idea of a HoF to keep the memory alive, and a perspective of historic significance, but reality is very different.

[DCapps]

I have long had serious misgivings about "Halls of Fame" relating to motor sport and the various processes for nominating and electing members. (Disclosure: I am a member of a group that votes on membership to a Hall of Fame.) I think that Michael certainly articulates one of my major reservations regarding these things: "Dead History." From its inception, I have pretty much ignored and disregarded the Motor Sport Hall of Fame for any number of reasons. Much the same for any number of other Halls of Fame as well. There are, however, a few that do take the effort seriously and do have an interest in "Dead History." I can't think of any that focus primarily/exclusively on motor sport, however.

 

Ralph De Palma was very, very fortunate to return to racing after the crash at Milwaukee in 1912.

 

As Michael suggests, if history is about the past and people no longer around, then the usual response is, Next...!

[Doug Nye]

I am absolutely with you all on 'Halls of Fame'.  To me the mere title is repellent - the basic concept less so...

 

DCN     

[Arjan de Roos]

Well one additional reason for an inclusion is still well alive, albeit as a brand. I wrote for 8W on the Indy project:

One day, many years ago, on a warm summer evening Enzo Ferrari and a friend were studying a newspaper. They read about another Italian guy called Ralph De Palma. He had emigrated to the US and was a racing driver by now. He had even achieved to win the 1915 Indianapolis 500 race! Upon seeing a picture of DePalma Ferrari made his life-time decision to become a racing driver too, one of his childhood dreams. At that same moment a distant romance between Ferrari and Indianapolis had begun.

[Michael Ferner]

Mention of Ferrari in a Ralph de Palma appreciation would be truly... bizarre! Not that we've been spared this nonsense in the past, or similar baloney with Bugatti...

[jtremlett]

I completely ignore any emails or anything I get from Motorsport about a Hall of Fame.  Utter garbage.  I detest the title and the concept.  An American import that unfortunately didn't sink mid-Atlantic.

[Michael Ferner]

[Vitesse2]

Mention of Ferrari in a Ralph de Palma appreciation would be truly... bizarre! Not that we've been spared this nonsense in the past, or similar baloney with Bugatti...

"This is the West, sir. When the legend becomes fact, print the legend."

 

[Michael Ferner]

"This is TNF, sir. When the legend ignores the facts, dump the legend."

[guiporsche]

And then there's the question of the provinciality (to be understated) of that 'Hall of Fame'. I would have thought that legends like Mauro Forghieri or Gianpaolo Dallara deserve a direct inclusion in Motorsport Magazine's. Nomination? What else do they have to prove? And to whom? Utter garbage indeed, but I suppose it brings some £££ into the coffers.

[Tim Murray]

I’m still impressed that even today only Big Al has led more laps in the Indy 500 than Ralph:

https://en.m.wikiped...500_lap_leaders

[Arjan de Roos]

Mention of Ferrari in a .....  "this nonsense "

???

[Roger Clark]

I don't know how easy it is to find these days but Gary Doyle's biography of Ralph De Palma, Gentleman Champion, is highly recommended.

[68targa]

I don't know how easy it is to find these days but Gary Doyle's biography of Ralph De Palma, Gentleman Champion, is highly recommended.

Gary Doyle's biography is a far better tribute than any Hall of Fame. The book is beautifully produced with a lot of detail, some superb photos as well as reproduction of some Helck paintings. 

[Arjan de Roos]

I don't know how easy it is to find these days but Gary Doyle's biography of Ralph De Palma, Gentleman Champion, is highly recommended.

I got a copy from Damokles for a fair price.

https://damokles.nu/

[Jim Thurman]

Oh, those Hall of Fame things...

 

Several (actually, many) years ago, I remarked within earshot of someone deeply involved with the National (USA) Sprint Car Hall of Fame that I thought it was a travesty that Bill Cummings was not included in their roster, and the person subsequently encouraged me to put forward an official request, complete with a short (?) resumé of his career, to which I retorted that he was missing my point: someone of Cummings's stature wouldn't need a recommendation, least of all by me. That conversation didn't get very much farther, but at least someone listening in took me aside a little while later and explained: they are not interested in "dead history" - Halls of Fame do revel in admitting living members, with all the pomp and circumstance that goes with an induction, but are completely (and I mean: COMPLETELY) ignorant and blasé about deceased heroes of our sport.

 

My advice to Simon, and to you, Darren: let it go... it's not worth the effort.

 

Michael, Michael, Michael, I expect a level of deep cynicism, Nitzscheism or Heideggerian philosophizing from you, but the level of internet defeatism displayed here by you suprises even me  And yet, Bill Cummings is in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame, so... 

 

The rest of the points you and Don make are well taken. However, to me, this doesn't mean to throw ones hands up and simply walk away. Even less so with sneering disdain. Look, there's likely no one here more crippled by Nihilism than I, particularly when it comes to my interests, and none of those more than motorsports. I have reached a point and situation in life where everything seems utterly pointless, and most things involving motorsports, even more so. But, if you're a voting member, you can do your part to correct that. And so long as the particular "Halls" don't pointedly instruct voters to tow that line about inducting living members, nothing's stopping them from doing so either. So this seems even beyond the normal deep cynicism from you   (Full disclosure, like Don I am a voting member for a HoF, and probably should be on others. I routinely vote for "dead guys."  So far, no one has stripped me of my voting membership.)

 

Besides, when it comes to Halls of Fame, it could always be worse. Like a Hall of Fame that inducted Jeff Gordon's stepfather, I assume so he would join their board of directors. He was inducted as a "builder", despite having built what exactly?, I'm not sure. That he was inducted ahead of - to this point - 49 others, including George Snider, Dick Atkins, Dave MacDonald, Rick Mears, Mike Bliss, Billy Wilkerson, Howard Kaeding, Frank Secrist, Walker Evans, Joe Leonard, Scott Pruett, Mickey Thompson, Fred Agabashian, George Bignotti, Bill Cheesbourg, Bill Vukovich, Bob Sweikert, Marshall Sargent, George Follmer and some short track standouts you might not be familiar with, well that's beyond farcical, it's a travesty.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 June 2021 - 20:27.

[Jim Thurman]

I forgot to mention, do NOT view the above as a rah-rah, ringing endorsement and unflagging support of all things all Halls of Fame. Some are better than others, some not so much, as I hope I made clear with my final graf.

 

Now, about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 

[Lemnpiper]

I forgot to mention, do NOT view the above as a rah-rah, ringing endorsement and unflagging support of all things all Halls of Fame. Some are better than others, some not so much, as I hope I made clear with my final graf.

 

Now, about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 

 

 

  LOL    preach it Jim  ,   as an associate member  of that "museum" for 26 years now   , you will be hard pressed to find a "museum" that has forgotten what work it is for a talented act to  endlessly in obscurity before making it somewhat big and then be forgotten due to the latest trendy form of music  .

 

 Paul Revere and the Raiders and just one of many examples of acts  never to get a  look see for inclusion.           Ironically my namesakes get mention  in the R&R hall due to their "1 hit" status.    

 

 

 

   Paul

[RobertE]

The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is just as stupid. Warren Zevon is not there, for example.

 

Better, surely, to be appreciated by those who really care about these things.

[Michael Ferner]

Michael, Michael, Michael, I expect a level of deep cynicism, Nitzscheism or Heideggerian philosophizing from you, but the level of internet defeatism displayed here by you suprises even me  And yet, Bill Cummings is in the National Sprint Car Hall of Fame, so... 

Oh yes, inducted all of three weeks ago! How could I miss that (actually, I even missed that Castro Neves became a four-time Indy winner until this week). Each to his own, but I stand by my advice: it's not worth it.

[Jim Thurman]

Oh yes, inducted all of three weeks ago! How could I miss that (actually, I even missed that Castro Neves became a four-time Indy winner until this week). Each to his own, but I stand by my advice: it's not worth it.

 

Your not following current motorsport has been well documented, not the least of all by yourself, so not being aware of Castro Neves fourth win isn't a surprise. Bill Cummings was inducted three weeks ago, but elected last year. There was no ceremony last year, for reasons you might have heard of, but I won't assume  . So, 49 more weeks less excuse to miss it    Although I concur that he warranted election far, far earlier.

 

Relative worth differs from person to person, YMMV. For example, I see no value to spending time researching which chassis some well-to-do dilletante runs around in while playing race driver 

 

EDIT: Michael, I do hope you understand that all of this tweaking is intended purely in good nature.

Edited by Jim Thurman, 18 June 2021 - 20:26.

[Collombin]

EDIT: Michael, I do hope you understand that all of this tweaking is intended purely in good nature.

Given his apparent success in getting Cummings elected, I'm hoping (given his well known love for ball sports) that Michael will now turn to the only Hall of Fame worth bothering with and help get LaVern Dilweg and LeRoy Butler into Canton.

[Michael Ferner]

Can you translate that into English?

[Michael Ferner]

Your not following current motorsport has been well documented, not the least of all by yourself, so not being aware of Castro Neves fourth win isn't a surprise. 

 

EDIT: Michael, I do hope you understand that all of this tweaking is intended purely in good nature.

 

 

No worries, good natured ribbing I can take (and besides, I have an obligation to show that Germans DO have a sense of humour.... ). Actually, the Indy 500 was "the last one to go", what with old habits that die hard. The last one I followed on the day was some ten years or so ago, and it was a sad play: over the last ten laps or so, the race seemed to have a new (and increasingly obscure) leader every other lap, only for him to veer off into the pitlane for a splash'n'dash, with the commentator going into overdrive and completely agog over the "suspense" - I only thought it was a sad travesty. I clearly remember when one of those leading was a man called Baguette (!) of whom I'd never heard before - I'm sure he was a fine driver, but that was simply too much! I did, however, take note of my old friends Montoya and Sato winning again

[Ray Bell]

Perhaps the Hall of Fame at Longreach would pass muster?

 

https://stockmanshalloffame.com.au/

[10kDA]

 

 

Now, about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame 

Perfect example. AKA The Rock N Roll Hole Of Lame.

 

My mother served for many years on the nomnating committee of an aviation hall of fame. The intention became nominating someone who was still alive, and then multiple nominees per year, because more tickets for the induction dinner would be sold to family and friends of the honored. When it became focused on fundraising, she bailed.

[Vitesse2]

Ten years ago exactly, Michael - 2011. Possibly the maddest finish of any 500 ever - multiple lead changes, almost everyone short on fuel, JR Hildebrand putting it in the wall at the final corner, continuing on about two and a half wheels and being passed on the finishing straight by Dan Weldon.

 

And Bertrand Baguette - inspiration for many a bread-based pun. Formula Renault 3.5 champion 2009, now racing GTs in Japan, not loafing about, so his career rolls on - he's not yet toast.

 

 

 

I'll get me coat ...

[10kDA]

 

 

And Bertrand Baguette - inspiration for many a bread-based pun. Formula Renault 3.5 champion 2009, now racing GTs in Japan, not loafing about,

https://youtu.be/g-4-gLlF0uw

 

so his career rolls on -

https://youtu.be/g-4-gLlF0uw

 

he's not yet toast.

https://youtu.be/g-4-gLlF0uw

 

 

 

I'll get me coat ...