66 replies to this topic

[Risil]

I'm unnaturally obsessed with Valtteri Bottas this year. At the French Grand Prix today, once Perez had got past Bottas was cruising around with unhappy tyres and no chance of the podium but still a minute up the road from Roland in 5th. A consequence-free fastest lap point was surely within his grasp? And not just a point for him, but a point taken away from Max Verstappen, who Brackley still hope to beat to the world title. Why didn't Merc bring him in? There has to be a reason!

[SilverArrow31]

I believe someone said Mercedes thought Perez might get a 5 second penalty for... something, they were under investigation, but this just tops a terribly managed race by Mercedes so they probably just didn't think

Edited by SilverArrow31, 20 June 2021 - 14:58.

[Muppetmad]

If you can explain why Mercedes made any of the decisions it ultimately made today, I'm all ears.

[SophieB]

Bottas is generating a lot of incidental entertainment this year.

[jpm2019]

Maybe bottas just told merc to f off. Bottas 21.0 you know.

 

Why did rb pit perez 2 laps before he could have slowed down hamilton?

[SophieB]

I am also super puzzled why they didn’t pit him.

[Risil]

Bottas is generating a lot of incidental entertainment this year.

This is sadly the end stage of all #2 drivers.

[SophieB]

I believe someone said Mercedes thought Perez might get a 5 second penalty for... something, they were under investigation, but this just tops a terribly managed race by Mercedes so they probably just didn't think

Toto says it was about this. That penalty looked very unlikely to happen.

[ensign14]

I think, given that Bottas had entirely ****ed up the team's strategy all race, they probably thought he'd bin it.

 

That drive was an outright liability.  Meanwhile Russell was twelfth in a POS.

[Ali_G]

I am also super puzzled why they didn’t pit him.

Bridges are completely burnt. This was an act of petulance and self sabotage after Bottas’ radio rant IMO.

Edited by Ali_G, 20 June 2021 - 15:04.

[ensign14]

I believe someone said Mercedes thought Perez might get a 5 second penalty for... something, they were under investigation, but this just tops a terribly managed race by Mercedes so they probably just didn't think

A 5 second penalty which would have meant Perez would have beaten Bottas by 1s rather than 6?  Brilliant.

[BRK]

This race may well be an aberration and Mercedes go back to dominant ways, but - and I've said this before - Mercedes are not the super-amazing well-oiled machine they are often made out to be. They have made as many mistakes and poor calls as a Red Bull or a Ferrari, but having dominant cars over the years has helped alleviate a lot of the damage. When the performance advantage is lost, they are as exposed as any other team.  

[Marklar]

Toto says it was about this. That penalty looked very unlikely to happen.

also in any case worse for the WDC since Max got the point

[SilverArrow31]

also in any case worse for the WDC since Max got the point

 

But not the WCC as it would of been a 6 point swing rather than 2, so I do see some logic in it, flawed as it may be

Edited by SilverArrow31, 20 June 2021 - 15:06.

[Marklar]

But not the WCC as it would of been a 6 point swing rather than 2, so I do see some logic in it, flawed as it may be

Well, the likehood of a Perez penalty was very low.

Also, at this point you would think that the WDC should be more important...

[SophieB]

But not the WCC as it would of been a 6 point swing rather than 2, so I do see some logic in it, flawed as it may be

I guess. But again, really they needed to ask themselves how likely that penalty was to happen.

[ensign14]

I guess. But again, really they needed to ask themselves how likely that penalty was to happen.

And given the footage showed that nobody did anything remotely wrong, not at all.  But even with that taken into account Perez easily made up that extra 5s.

[A3]

The obvious reason is that they were afraid they couldn’t get his right front off.

[SophieB]

Ha!

[masa90]

I think, given that Bottas had entirely ****ed up the team's strategy all race, they probably thought he'd bin it.

 

That drive was an outright liability.  Meanwhile Russell was twelfth in a POS.

 

How was it Bottas who ruined the strategy? So now he is at fault of teams poor strategies aswell? Man no wonder he doesnt win when he is fault at pit stops going wrong, team putting his tires to other car and stuff like that.

[ThadGreen]

Perhaps they did want him to pit for fastest lap and perhaps Bottas's feelings were

 

a) F that you didn't pit me for a two stop when I wanted it, so screw you

 

or

 

b) F that you've screwed up enough of my pit stops lately and I'm not going to give you another chance to screw another one up and have Dildo Wolff blame me for it.

[BobbyRicky]

Its simple: this was Mercs way of punishing him for pushing Hamiltons "brake-magic"-button in Baku.

[Paco]

Cause they thought Perez was getting a penalty 5s so they didn't want to lose 3rd..

[P123]

I think they just dithered too long.  What lap did Perez pass and how many before the end?  Max pitted whilst ahead, and only passed on penultimate lap.  So i'd guess it was take at least the same amount of time for Bottas to catch Perez after pitting. 

 

Then they thought Perez would get a 5S penalty. Still, they should have just pitted him for FL. At least that would have been a guaranteed point, and taken one point from Max.  That and the first stop sort of gives lie to the idea in here that they run with the mindset of benefiting only Hamilton.

[ensign14]

How was it Bottas who ruined the strategy? So now he is at fault of teams poor strategies aswell? Man no wonder he doesnt win when he is fault at pit stops going wrong, team putting his tires to other car and stuff like that.

He was brought in early to make the undercut work.  He didn't make it work.  He had two jobs in the race and stunk at both.

[Clrnc]

Maybe bottas just told merc to f off. Bottas 21.0 you know.

 

Why did rb pit perez 2 laps before he could have slowed down hamilton?

Because RB wasn't that childish, they were focusing on giving Perez the best chance to get 3rd. They were focused on their own plan A and didn't get influenced by other things. 

 

Merc thought Perez might get a 5s penalty, so they were right to keep Bottas out. 

[absinthedude]

A 5 second penalty which would have meant Perez would have beaten Bottas by 1s rather than 6?  Brilliant.

 

They had no way of knowing that. Bottas might have been able to keep within 5 seconds of Perez. And there's all the attendant risk associated with a pit stop, which Mercedes and Bottas know only to well after recent events. 

 

Of course the narrative popular with conspiracy theorists is that either:

Bottas is pissed off with Merc, there was an instruction to pit and he told them they could do something anatomically impossible for most people.

Or Merc has decided not to bother with Bottas at all because they're replacing him, so they hung him out to dry. 

 

Truth is likely to be that Merc were just outplayed by RBR today, and RBR had the better car. 

[PlatenGlass]

He was brought in early to make the undercut work. He didn't make it work. He had two jobs in the race and stunk at both.

It was hardly a slam dunk for him.

[SenorSjon]

Or they expected a messy battle between Lewis and Max and so have a car close?

[ANF]

I believe someone said Mercedes thought Perez might get a 5 second penalty for... something, they were under investigation

Track limits:
"The FIA has explained why Sergio Perez was allowed to keep his third place position in Formula 1’s French Grand Prix despite appearing to have run wide after his late race overtaking move on Valtteri Bottas."
https://www.motorspo...france/6590119/

[GTR]

Brain fade maybe?

[ANF]

I'm pretty sure Bottas was still within 5 seconds when he passed the pit entry on the penultimate lap, so I think they made the right call.

[Paco]

How was it Bottas who ruined the strategy? So now he is at fault of teams poor strategies aswell? Man no wonder he doesnt win when he is fault at pit stops going wrong, team putting his tires to other car and stuff like that.

 

If ignore the fact that Bottas flat spot his tire in stint one that lead to a huge vibration through the suspension so they had to stop earlier then the early they had wanted.   Those few laps made all the difference.

[Paco]

He was brought in early to make the undercut work.  He didn't make it work.  He had two jobs in the race and stunk at both.

 

But wasn't even just that, he costs them laps on the 1st stint that would have gone longer if he hadn't messed up his tires with a huge flat spot.  That stint should have been 3-6 laps longer.  I called it out right away why in the world the came in so soon.

[PlatenGlass]

But wasn't even just that, he costs them laps on the 1st stint that would have gone longer if he hadn't messed up his tires with a huge flat spot. That stint should have been 3-6 laps longer. I called it out right away why in the world the came in so soon.

It cost Verstappen laps too as he reacted to it. There's no reason it should have been a net loss for Mercedes.

[ARTGP]

Well, the likehood of a Perez penalty was very low.

Also, at this point you would think that the WDC should be more important...

 

Less than zero! Never gonna happen. On what planet is Perez even investigated for that move.  Mind boggling, the move was even investigated.... 

Edited by ARTGP, 20 June 2021 - 15:52.

[eibyyz]

Next time the pitwall tells BOT to come in, he should do it.  And drive the remaining laps in fourth gear.  Tell the press the 'box jammed (and dare Toto to say otherwise.)

 

F###s=0

[PayasYouRace]

I think a better question would be why they didn't pit Bottas to follow Max's strategy. Or at least, why they didn't pit one of their drivers to follow Max. They had a great opportunity to cover both options. Instead they allowed Red Bull to do to them what they did in Barcelona.

[Izzyeviel]

Since they've decided he's leaving, they just don't care.

[cpbell]

If you can explain why Mercedes made any of the decisions it ultimately made today, I'm all ears.

I'm glad others are as baffled as I am!

[PlatenGlass]

I think a better question would be why they didn't pit Bottas to follow Max's strategy. Or at least, why they didn't pit one of their drivers to follow Max. They had a great opportunity to cover both options. Instead they allowed Red Bull to do to them what they did in Barcelona.

I suppose because they were already behind at that point. Pitting Bottas would have only made a difference versus Perez and wouldn't have been able to act as a buffer between Verstappen and Hamilton in the final laps.

[DeKnyff]

Since they've decided he's leaving, they just don't care.

 

It's not about bottas, it's about Max: a FL by Bottas would have meant one less point for him.

[scheivlak]

I'm pretty sure Bottas was still within 5 seconds when he passed the pit entry on the penultimate lap, so I think they made the right call.

Only if you think your strategists should be just reacting at a given moment and not act timely on the data available (which also includes Bottas being Bottas).

Edited by scheivlak, 20 June 2021 - 21:29.

[milestone 11]

I'm pretty sure Bottas was still within 5 seconds when he passed the pit entry on the penultimate lap, so I think they made the right call.

You're right, Perez was 1:167 second quicker on the last lap, in fact, it was his fastest race lap, a 1:36:693. Sergio was certainly driving with the potential of a penalty in mind.

Edited by milestone 11, 20 June 2021 - 21:32.

[as65p]

This race may well be an aberration and Mercedes go back to dominant ways, but - and I've said this before - Mercedes are not the super-amazing well-oiled machine they are often made out to be. They have made as many mistakes and poor calls as a Red Bull or a Ferrari, but having dominant cars over the years has helped alleviate a lot of the damage. When the performance advantage is lost, they are as exposed as any other team.  

That's probably all true, but it also, correctly IMO, implicates that no other team is actually any better over a significant time sample. Until one team steps up and mugs the others in the team work and strategy department consistently, what we see appears simply the best anyone can do ATM.

[Junky]

This was all over Mercedes 2010-12 today.

[Spillage]

It was completely missed by the broadcasters, but Perez went off the track and I think Mercedes expected race control to either swap the places back or apply a retrospective penalty.

To be honest I think they're a little unlucky race control didn't do that but in the end Perez built a 5s gap to Bottas so it wouldn't have mattered.

[noikeee]

Because pitting for FL is a terrible idea and not worth it and one of these days someone's going to lose 15 or 12 points to try to get 1 more point in a botched pitstop.

[HP]

In short  the team just showed that they are in danger of losing their edge over the last few years. But we have to look at other factors as well.

 

Some kind of pit stop issue occurring for Bottas, or an SC at the wrong time could cost the team points. In the worst case they could lose up to 12 points for the WCC.  The race was in the closing stages and no one had retired by that point. How is their engine/gearbox strategy? At what stage are these 2 parts in the life cycle? Was it worth the risk then? Timing was important as well. Red Bull could have mirrored the move with Perez if they had Bottas taken in too early. What if Hamilton had to make an emergency stop and the pit not ready for that scenario? It could cost them in the WDC hunt too.

 

Mercedes had the chance to try out a few risky things once they sealed the championships in the past years and they didn't took them. This weekend Toto said that he prefers stability (context for that remark: Bottas could retain his seat if showing a few good performances in the next few races).

 

Put together it seems to me Mercedes needs to adjust their DNA. Signs are appearing that they are falling into decline. That's how these things usually work out. Only way forward for the team is to not work in a mode of maintaining and enjoying their success. The team needs to rediscover what made it so successful and introduce changes where needed. Just think how Mercedes bought into the current engine formula. It was executed well, the result is there to see for all of us. Focussed on those qualities I think Mercedes would have taken the chance to pit Bottas and go for FL.

 

In a very subtle way, previous sustained success shifts focus in teams (and anywhere else in real life for that matter)  to become risk averse. Hence the decision not to pit Bottas.

[Afterburner]

Bottas was just too slow today, end of story. Those pointing out his woeful first stint have got it right; had he been able to jump Verstappen on the undercut, Hamilton likely would’ve been safe for at least another lap, which may have proved critical at the end of the race (not to mention the time Verstappen would’ve also lost during his second stint by being behind both Mercs). When Verstappen had clear air to make the undercut work, it put Merc on damage control for the rest of the race.