1685 replies to this topic

[masa90]

Miles better. Now on a normal track they are able to race properly. 2021 really glorified the end of first set of "turbo rules". Mostly the racing and sport from 2014 to 2020 was really bad tbh.

 

There are still problems with these rules and stuff, but for me it is miles better.

[NewYorkF1]

The first few races of the year were amazing. Last year we barely had any even races, there always was either a clear advantage to Merc or Red Bull. Of course the championship was close, but the individual races not so much.

This year Ferrari and Red Bull, especially in the first races, were very even on performance. Meaning that the slightest mistake or strategy decision was decisive. We have seen some good battles between Leclerc and Verstappen.

Unfortunately reliability has been an issue, but I am not following the “WCC/WDC has been decided crowd”, I still think. Ferrari have a little edge over Red Bull in pure performance on most tracks, and it just takes another spell of bad luck for Red Bull to be right back into the fight.

The cars look beautiful as well on paper, but agree that once in motion they are far too large in size and therefor look slow.

[HP]

IMO it's too early to come to a conclusion, as teams are grappling with issue, trying to figure out how to stay with the cost cap limit.

 

If they figure out some of the pressing issues, and this helps to bunbch the field up, then it was a good change. Again, it's too early for me to come up with a conclusion. Ask me next year around the same time, and I'll see more clear.

[FirstnameLastname]

I’m looking forward to getting to see the cars on more ‘real’ tracks. We’ve been very heavy on temporary/street tracks… but once we get onto smoother permanent tracks, it’ll be easier to see how the cars really perform.

That said - f1 is very street/city orientated these days - so it’s all part of the game and an important part too

[Wuzak]

Cars can follow closer to each other, but the new regulations haven't brought teams closer together, so there's still 1 second gap to the top teams. The fact that we lost Mercedes and maybe Ferrari means it's going to be another year of boring domination. So I do not think 2022 F1 is much better.

 

The field spread seems to be roughly the same as last year, though.

 

And last year was the 5th season or, relatively, stable regulations.

[Wuzak]

I’m Just re - watching Canada 2019. and it struck me that cars look soo much faster, so much more nimble.. The 22 cars are fat, bloated, awkward and outright slow in comparison. Arguably they look nicer maybe standing still but in motion I don’t like them at all..

It is interesting that one of the observations is that in slow speed corners/sections the 2022 cars are much less nimble than their predecessors, largely because of the extra ~50kg of weight.

 

Despite that, Leclerc was half a lap away from setting a pole time less than 1s off the outright record (2019 pole) at Monaco. That should have been the worse track for these compared to their predecessors, but it wasn't that far off.

[BoDarvelle]

The cars seem fine on medium and high speed corners, but turns like 1 at Bahrain they look like the oversized/overweight tanks they are.

 

And they sound like my vacuum cleaner.

 

If they were the same size as the F2 cars it would be a huge improvement. The hybrid crap and no refueling prevent this however.

[Atreiu]

It was all downhill after 2010.

[Myrvold]

The hybrid crap and no refueling prevent this however.

 

Except not really. The first hybrid Mercedes was 0.3m shorter than the last non-hybrid Red Bull. Which were the same length, but with a shorter wheelbase than some of the the 2009 refuelling era-cars (like the Force India and Renault). The 100kg the cars have put on since hybrid arrived has in general little to do with hybrid as well. The wheelbase is now regulated so the 2022 cars are not as long as the 2021 cars, however, they still have a wheelbase that 0.3m longer than F2 cars.

 

Regardless, it's basically not hybrid or no refueling that's the reason. The 2014 Mercedes, with hybrid and a fuel cell for a whole race was still small than the current F2 car.

[Gravelngrass]

Give it time. The field is as close as the last year of an 8 year cycle so it’s pretty good. Following is improved, which is already much better than the last 8 years as well. The cars look better too, so more points there. A speed difference can’t really be discerned on TV so that’s not important.

On the downside, the cars are too heavy and long, but that was a problem before as well. And DRS still exists…

[Clrnc]

There are three things to this for me:

 

1) in terms of close on track racing it's better than the last few years. The dirty air seems far less and we've seen good battles, although not as many as we could have had due to technical issues and DNF's with the front running teams.

2) in terms of closer competition between the teams, the jury is out. At this moment I would say it's more or less comparable to last year (again sadly obscured sometimes due to unreliability) and FIA have said this aspect will take a few years before we can conclude it it works or not.

3) the cars look and sound horrible. It's not until you see a car from the '90's and noughties (on video or even better in real life) that you realise what we are missing today. The cars are way too heavy and way too big and compared to those earlier cars look like tanks on track. It's a really sad state of affairs, but for some reason apparently irreversible. I would love for F1 to start reducing the minimum weight again.

Echoed my thoughts exactly. 

 

I don't mind the looks of the car, but the size is really too big. 

[cbo]

The racing is fine and the cars look good. So 2022 regulations work as advertised. The cars are too fat, but they have been so for years, so you cannot blame the 2022 regulations for that.

We need cars with normally aspirated V10s running on synthetic, green fuel and throw away batteries, electric motors, mgu's etc. to really make a difference. Better racing and less crap to haul about, so it would likely be better for the planet as well.

[ANF]

The only bad thing about these cars (and it's pretty bad) is that they look like tanks in chicanes and slow corners. I guess it's down to the 18-inch wheels and new suspension rules, but maybe the cars will improve over time?

[flyboym3]

Formula needs more refinement.

They are
Too big
Too heavy
Fumble around corners too slowly
Its an era for those with b teams to shine by leveraging cost cap 'loopholes'.

Racing closer means nothing because its offset with the loss of the slip stream effect. They need to make drs stronger because al we see is drs train.

The gap between redbull and the rest is over 1 second, its light years in f1.

The wdc season is over after 7 races probably about sums it up for me.
I have no need to watch anymore and have cancelled my subscription.

Edited by flyboym3, 19 June 2022 - 11:37.

[Rumblestrip]

Formula needs more refinement.

They are
Too big
Too heavy
Fumble around corners too slowly
Its an era for those with b teams to shine by leveraging cost cap 'loopholes'.

Racing closer means nothing because its offset with the loss of the slip stream effect. They need to make drs stronger because al we see is drs train.

The gap between redbull and the rest is over 1 second, its light years in f1.

The wdc season is over after 7 races probably about sums it up for me.
I have no need to watch anymore and have cancelled my subscription.

 

I feel you may be overreacting slightly.

[PayasYouRace]

I’ve asked this question earlier in the season but now we are a bit further into the season have the new regulations genuinely resulted in better racing ?

YES without doubt the cars definitely can run closer for longer but for me that isn’t translating to more exciting races, more overtakes or a better spectacle

I’m Just re - watching Canada 2019. and it struck me that cars look soo much faster, so much more nimble.. The 22 cars are fat, bloated, awkward and outright slow in comparison. Arguably they look nicer maybe standing still but in motion I don’t like them at all..

I was certainly in the minority the last time, team prejudice will certainly influence opinion including mine but if you try put that aside, are these cars genuinely more exciting to watch? Not for me.

Will be interesting to watch Canada 19 and 22 back to back for a comparison

 

This rant didn't deserve its own thread. Merged into existing thread.

[Ali623]

The wdc season is over after 7 races probably about sums it up for me.
 

 

Just like it was over after Australia, no chance Verstappen was recovering that points gap, right?

[FullOppositeLock]

So who was saying the 2022 regulations haven’t brought better racing? Even the field looks closer together. In previous years Charles would have simply fought his way back into contention for the race win.

[ClubmanGT]

It's going OK, but for the love of god can we make them a metre shorter in the next evolution? I feel like this would solve our nimbleness/mid-corner understeer issues. 

[ColeTrickle44]

Amazing how we se sit differently. I see car which are as nimble as cargo ships, cars that can run close but can’t overtake because the slipstream has vanished.

Good race today. Don’t like the cars at all

[Whatisvalis]

They just look cumbersome and slow for formula cars - I felt like I was watching GT racing.

They nailed being able to follow - probably shouldn’t have gimped the suspension or gone with the giant wheels.

[YamahaV10]

It was all downhill after 2010.

 

They went hybrid in 2014.

[YamahaV10]

I would bring back refueling just to shorten and lighten the cars. They talk about shortening and lightening the 2025 regulation cars. But how ? If you are packing batteries, electric motors and full tanks of fuel around, the cars are going to be heavy and long. 

 

The 2010 cars were allowed to be 22cm longer to accommodate the bigger fuel tank. 

[Wuzak]

I would bring back refueling just to shorten and lighten the cars. They talk about shortening and lightening the 2025 regulation cars. But how ? If you are packing batteries, electric motors and full tanks of fuel around, the cars are going to be heavy and long. 

 

The 2010 cars were allowed to be 22cm longer to accommodate the bigger fuel tank. 

 

Aerrodynamics is the main reason for the length of the cars. And there is quite a bit of space between the power unit and gearbox that could be trimmed.

 

The rules restrict wheelbase to a maximum of 3,600mm. Which means that the Mercedes, for one, is shorter than their 2017-2021 cars. 2026 regulations will likely have the wheelbase limit shortened.

 

The overall width remains the same 2,000mm as the 2017-2021 cars. Cars in the 1980s were 2,150mm wide.

 

The cars grew nearly 50kg in mass this year. Mainly due to bigger wheels and tyres and increased safety. They hybrid power unit has grown 5kg since 2014, the whole car ~100kg.

 

To save weigh I would drop 2 gears, and allow a set number of final drive ratios for the year. I'd also test to see the effect of running with and without the wheel covers. If running without doesn't affect the following car too much (the goal of these regulations), drop them and save a few kg. And try to save a few kg on wheels and tyres.

 

The energy store probably doesn't need to be as big as it is now. So drop 5 or 10kg for that.

Edited by Wuzak, 20 June 2022 - 08:09.

[Clatter]

They went hybrid in 2014.

 

They went Hybrid 2009.

[YamahaV10]

Aerrodynamics is the main reason for the length of the cars. And there is quite a bit of space between the power unit and gearbox that could be trimmed.

 

The rules restrict wheelbase to a maximum of 3,600mm. Which means that the Mercedes, for one, is shorter than their 2017-2021 cars. 2026 regulations will likely have the wheelbase limit shortened.

 

The overall width remains the same 2,000mm as the 2017-2021 cars. Cars in the 1980s were 2,150mm wide.

 

The cars grew nearly 50kg in mass this year. Mainly due to bigger wheels and tyres and increased safety. They hybrid power unit has grown 5kg since 2014, the whole car ~100kg.

 

To save weigh I would drop 2 gears, and allow a set number of final drive ratios for the year. I'd also test to see the effect of running with and without the wheel covers. If running without doesn't affect the following car too much (the goal of these regulations), drop them and save a few kg. And try to save a few kg on wheels and tyres.

 

The energy store probably doesn't need to be as big as it is now. So drop 5 or 10kg for that.

 

The power unit weight compared to the V8 non hybrid is something like 90 kg. I cant find the data right now but the weight problem is the hybrid. If we took todays cars with all the extra safety and put a V8 in them, there would be no weight problem

 

Hybrid engines also cost double the amount of the V8's. 

[YamahaV10]

They went Hybrid 2009.

 

[Bleu]

I think fuel tanks are pretty close on what they were in the early 2000s. On a one-stop race it was not strange to see driver going two-thirds distance before fuel stop. And of course hybrid engines use much less fuel than V10s in that era.

[warp]

 

 

So KERS was not hybrid?

Or just electric assisted?

[boomn]

2014 was the first time that a hybrid system was required in all cars and therefore the first time they could say that F1 as a whole is hybrid powered. But the KERS that was optional starting in 2009 was a standard hybrid system

[Wuzak]

The power unit weight compared to the V8 non hybrid is something like 90 kg. I cant find the data right now but the weight problem is the hybrid. If we took todays cars with all the extra safety and put a V8 in them, there would be no weight problem

 

Hybrid engines also cost double the amount of the V8's. 

 

It isn't as simple as that.

 

The current Power Unit weight includes some items that weren't typically included in the weight of the old V8s.

 

The V8s had a minimum weight of 95kg, the current Power Units 150kg. That is a 55kg difference, but I don't think the power unit weight includes the battery or wires, so 90kg would be close.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that the cars weighed 100kg less in 2014 than now.

[pdac]

It isn't as simple as that.

 

The current Power Unit weight includes some items that weren't typically included in the weight of the old V8s.

 

The V8s had a minimum weight of 95kg, the current Power Units 150kg. That is a 55kg difference, but I don't think the power unit weight includes the battery or wires, so 90kg would be close.

 

That still doesn't change the fact that the cars weighed 100kg less in 2014 than now.

 

Perhaps the suggestion was to junk the ERS too.

[TomNokoe]

I think fuel tanks are pretty close on what they were in the early 2000s. On a one-stop race it was not strange to see driver going two-thirds distance before fuel stop. And of course hybrid engines use much less fuel than V10s in that era.

Correct. You can check the fuel weights they released in 2009 to see that some cars had fuel tanks in excess of 100kg during the V8 refuelling era, and those cars were plenty small.

Edited by TomNokoe, 24 June 2022 - 13:17.

[LolaB0860]

I hope Liberty haven't been following these news
https://nomisec.com/...d-in-sugo-test/

Because while obviously the old noises are deeply missed, bringing nostalgia artificially back just for the sake of it without advancing other areas is always lame

Edited by LolaB0860, 24 June 2022 - 11:46.

[FullOppositeLock]

I’ve asked this question earlier in the season but now we are a bit further into the season have the new regulations genuinely resulted in better racing ?

YES without doubt the cars definitely can run closer for longer but for me that isn’t translating to more exciting races, more overtakes or a better spectacle

I’m Just re - watching Canada 2019. and it struck me that cars look soo much faster, so much more nimble.. The 22 cars are fat, bloated, awkward and outright slow in comparison. Arguably they look nicer maybe standing still but in motion I don’t like them at all..

I was certainly in the minority the last time, team prejudice will certainly influence opinion including mine but if you try put that aside, are these cars genuinely more exciting to watch? Not for me.

Will be interesting to watch Canada 19 and 22 back to back for a comparison

 

 

Lewis Hamilton said: "That was very reminiscent of the karting days. And I feel that that's Formula 1 at its best. The fact that we were able to follow and dice like that, lap on lap is a testament to the direction I think that we're now in."

 

British GP race winner Carlos Sainz added: "I think it's a great step forward done by Formula 1, and today's [Sunday] just proof of that. I feel like these cars have improved a lot the racing in high-speed corners and Silverstone was a great example of how much better it is to follow.

 

Source: McLaren highlights one outstanding issue with F1 2022 rules (motorsport.com)

Edited by FullOppositeLock, 06 July 2022 - 12:58.

[OO7]

I'd love to see these new cars race around Mugello, the Portimão Algarve circuit and Istanbul Park.