175 replies to this topic

[JimmyClark]

Can't help thinking that calling Sochi remote because of the distance to Moscow rather misses the point about Russia.

 

Indeed. 

 

The longest point to point distance in mainland France (let's ignore French Guyana!) is ~1065km, and Paris-Magny Cours is ~225km, so that's 21% of the distance. 

 

The longest point to point distance in the main part of Russia (let's ignore Kaliningrad) is ~6000km, and Moscow-Sochi is ~1300km, so that's 22% of the distance. 

 

It's basically the same. 

[BRG]

Can't help thinking that calling Sochi remote because of the distance to Moscow rather misses the point about Russia.

Ok, so what IS the point about Russia?  I was saying it is a poor circuit and it is a very long way from any significant population centres.  So Igora Drive is a far more sensible choice, if there is to be a Russian GP.

 

Indeed. 

 

The longest point to point distance in mainland France (let's ignore French Guyana!) is ~1065km, and Paris-Magny Cours is ~225km, so that's 21% of the distance. 

 

The longest point to point distance in the main part of Russia (let's ignore Kaliningrad) is ~6000km, and Moscow-Sochi is ~1300km, so that's 22% of the distance. 

 

It's basically the same. 

And apples and oranges both grow on tree, so they are basically the same... 

Russia's five largest cities are:-

• Moscow - 12,678,080 & 1,600kms from Sochi
• St. Petersburg - 5,398,080 & 2,330 kms from Sochi
• Novosibirsk - 1,625,310 & 4,250 kms from Sochi
• Yekaterinburg - 1,494,750 & 2,780 kms from Sochi
• Kazan - 1,257,390 & 2,020 kms from Sochi

The very definition of the back of beyond, isn't it?  ​By comparison, the Korean GP at Yeongnam was said to be too far from Seoul but is only a few hundred kms​

 

[JimmyClark]

 

Ok, so what IS the point about Russia?  I was saying it is a poor circuit and it is a very long way from any significant population centres.  So Igora Drive is a far more sensible choice, if there is to be a Russian GP.

 

And apples and oranges both grow on tree, so they are basically the same... 

Russia's five largest cities are:-

• Moscow - 12,678,080 & 1,600kms from Sochi
• St. Petersburg - 5,398,080 & 2,330 kms from Sochi
• Novosibirsk - 1,625,310 & 4,250 kms from Sochi
• Yekaterinburg - 1,494,750 & 2,780 kms from Sochi
• Kazan - 1,257,390 & 2,020 kms from Sochi

The very definition of the back of beyond, isn't it?  ​By comparison, the Korean GP at Yeongnam was said to be too far from Seoul but is only a few hundred kms​

 

 

 

Being a port city on one of the most important seas in Eurasia with the fifth busiest airport in Russia in terms of passenger traffic is not 'back of beyond'. 

[William Hunt]

Sochi isn't as bad as Abu Dhabi (although we still have to see if the changes will improve it) imho because of the great first section from corner 2 until corner 5. Igora Drive does look more interesting (in particular because of the track elevation, something I miss in Sochi) though but I would miss that unique corner nr. 4 at Sochi.

[William Hunt]

.....  ​By comparison, the Korean GP at Yeongnam was said to be too far from Seoul but is only a few hundred kms​

 

I disagree: the Yeongam track (which was pretty decent layout wise) was litteraly in the middle of nowhere. Sochi is not in the middle of nowhere, it's an important tourist destination within Russia and it's an important port for Russia. Distance from Moscow should never be a factor because that means you ignore the rest of the country.

[BRG]

Distance from Moscow should never be a factor because that means you ignore the rest of the country.

That's why I included the other four main Russian cities which are even further away.

 

Being a port city on one of the most important seas in Eurasia with the fifth busiest airport in Russia in terms of passenger traffic is not 'back of beyond'. 

Since when has being a sea port been a criteria for locating a race track??   We had better drop Hungary, Monza, Silverstone and Austin, what with their total lack of docking facilities.

 

Being a port was really a big help for Valencia, wasn't it?

[JimmyClark]

 

Since when has being a sea port been a criteria for locating a race track??   We had better drop Hungary, Monza, Silverstone and Austin, what with their total lack of docking facilities.

 

Being a port was really a big help for Valencia, wasn't it?

 

I was just countering you saying it was 'back of beyond'; with land, air and sea connections, it is anything but.  

 

I really don't care much for Sochi, and I agree that St. Petersburg is a better location for a Grand Prix (especially with the European fanbase) and I think it will be a nice little race track. But actually Sochi - in terms of access for Russians - is in a better place than Igora Drive, which is nine timezones away from the other end of Russia. 

 

Also note from Sochi Airport to the Aerodrom it is a 9km journey by taxi, yet from St Petersburg airport to Igora Drive it is a 102km journey. So in terms of local locations, Sochi also wins over Igora drive as it is basically in the city limits (which is an issue for international fans who are flying a long distance anyway). 

Edited by JimmyClark, 30 September 2021 - 16:00.

[JimmyClark]

Actually I'm just working out if you are living by the Kremlin in Moscow and want to go to the Russian Grand Prix. Based on driving only to transport points, and on Google's times, 

 

For Sochi: 

Moscow to airport: 50 minutes

Airport waiting time: 90 minutes

Flight time: 2h 25m

Arrival faff: 30m

Taxi from airport to Autodrom: 20 minutes

Total time: 5h35m

 

For Igora drive, by plane: 

Moscow to airport: 50 minutes

Airport waiting time: 90 minutes

Flight time: 1h 15m

Arrival faff: 30m

Taxi from airport to Igora Drive: 1h 20m 

Total time: 5h25m

 

For Igora drive, by high speed train

To train station: 30 minutes

Train: 4 hours

Taxi from St Petersburg station to Igora Drive: 1hr

Total time: 5h30m

 

So if you are looking at it from a Muscovite's point of view, there really isn't much difference. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 30 September 2021 - 16:13.

[RA2]

Sochi track can still be made a lot better.


Moscow Raceway would have been much closer to population centers, woner why they never used it.

Edited by RA2, 30 September 2021 - 16:18.

[noikeee]

This is a totally bizarre argument.

 

It's a **** circuit. But it's not the location that's the problem, it's the fact it's ****.

 

It's better located than things like Nurburgring or Spa who need quite the drive. If you're going to decide on tracks based on location purely let's do Formula E then and only race in cities. It's stupid.

 

I prefer Igora Drive but it's because it's a better circuit. I'm not going to visit either anyway.

[pdac]

According to Wikipedia (I know), Sochi is the 45th largest city/town in Russia. But, also, since the 2010 census, the population has been estimated to have grown by over 25%. Having said that, this still makes it only the 24th fastest growing city/town.

[LucaP]

Why are we all worried about these places being remote, we are all sitting in our armchairs

[BRG]

It's a **** circuit. But it's not the location that's the problem, it's the fact it's ****..

 

I agree.  That was my point but I added that it was also hopelessly inaccessible for most potential spectators.  And that went down a rabbit hole for some reason.

[William Hunt]

That's why I included the other four main Russian cities which are even further away.

 

So you think a race should not take place because it's relatively far away from other (large) cities? That's ridiculous. As if the people living in and around the Sochi region can't have a large sporting event just because 'other large cities are far away'? For your information: they've held Olympic Games there. Surely if it can hold Olympic Games it's suited to hold a GP as well?

I agree with what Noikee said. This is not about the location, that doesn't matter. And besides: Sochi has a large international airport so anyone can reach it this way. Igora Drive is located further from the airpost as the Sochi circuit is.

 

The fact that Russia is moving the Grand Prix to another is all about political influence by the way. It's not about the circuit, it's moved because of lobying by politicians from the St Petersburg region (and it's not even that close to St Petersburg, 54km).

Edited by William Hunt, 30 September 2021 - 18:55.

[RA2]

Why cant they keep it simple

 

Edited by RA2, 01 October 2021 - 08:23.

[PayasYouRace]

You can tell the final corner sequence was done with the line tool in MS Paint.

[RA2]

You can tell the final corner sequence was done with the line tool in MS Paint.

 

Ok next time ill use a different app 

[PayasYouRace]

Ok next time ill use a different app 

 

I didn't know you were the graphic artist for Racefans.net.

[BRG]

So you think a race should not take place because it's relatively far away from other (large) cities? That's ridiculous. As if the people living in and around the Sochi region can't have a large sporting event just because 'other large cities are far away'? For your information: they've held Olympic Games there. Surely if it can hold Olympic Games it's suited to hold a GP as well?

 

Sigh....you won't let it go, will you?  For YOUR information, it was the WINTER Olympics that were held in Sochi.  Because there are mountains nearby and there aren't any near Moscow or St Petersburg.  But the 1980 Summer Olympics were held in Moscow.  I wonder why?

 

Sochi is the back of beyond and it is a poor excuse for a GP track.  Moving the race to a better race track that is near to Russia's second city is a no-brainer.

[RA2]

Sigh....you won't let it go, will you?  For YOUR information, it was the WINTER Olympics that were held in Sochi.  Because there are mountains nearby and there aren't any near Moscow or St Petersburg.  But the 1980 Summer Olympics were held in Moscow.  I wonder why?

 

Sochi is the back of beyond and it is a poor excuse for a GP track.  Moving the race to a better race track that is near to Russia's second city is a no-brainer.

 

 

Isnt Igora a ski resort too?

[JimmyClark]

Isnt Igora a ski resort too?

 

It is. The name is a portmanteau of 'play mountain', as it is a winter resort. 

Edited by JimmyClark, 01 October 2021 - 10:38.

[Oakstreet]

I didn't know you were the graphic artist for Racefans.net.

 

I think RA2 is proposing a simpler final turn. But I might be mistaken.

[Anja]

I think RA2 is proposing a simpler final turn. But I might be mistaken.

 

Yeah, this is the original map:

 

[PayasYouRace]

I think RA2 is proposing a simpler final turn. But I might be mistaken.

I think RA2 should have been clearer that it was their own edit.

[Risil]

RA2's version of the track looks nicer though. Not sure what this proves!

 

Sort of amusing how a "Grand Prix" extension for the fastest and most powerful cars involves building some go-kart corners at the end of the lap.

[JimmyClark]

 

Sort of amusing how a "Grand Prix" extension for the fastest and most powerful cars involves building some go-kart corners at the end of the lap.

 

I'm really hoping that it's designed with the hill in mind and that chicane could be a little corkscrew-ish.