19 replies to this topic

[Steve99]

Appealing to the historians among you wonderful bunch. I've acquired this original photo, photographer Hugo Rudolphy who I am aware was based in Berlin in the 1890's. The seller listed it as 'probably 1930's' but it's clearly much older. If anyone has an idea of the car, location driver(s) I'd be grateful! I think it might be a Mors but I'm not great on these old machines. Many thanks!

 

 

 

 

[Tim Murray]

As the photographer was based in Berlin, my educated guess would be the finish of the 1901 Paris-Berlin race, which took place at a horse trotting track in Berlin (which would explain the stands in the background). The number on the car could be ‘6’ which was the second-place Panhard driven by Léonce Girardot. Here’s a photo of the first three (l to r Fournier, Girardot and de Knyff), and Girardot’s car in the middle looks to me very like the car in the photo. With luck one of our experts can confirm definitely.

[Vitesse2]

I think you've nailed it, Tim. Here's a picture of Fournier crossing the line, published in the Austrian AAZ's second report on the race (i/d 14/7/01). Their first report the previous week had a picture of the start and two posed photos of the Mercedes of Degrais and Lemaitre, both at the Aachen control.

 

This is taken from the other side, but we can see what appear to be the same banner and flags at the line. Could even be the same enthusiastic chap waving his straw boater!

 

https://anno.onb.ac....seite=6&zoom=33

[Michael Ferner]

I agree with Tim, this looks very much like one of the streamlined 1901 Panhard-Levassors, as driven by Girardot and Fernand Charron. Hopefully, our resident expert Robert Dick will chime in, but I believe those cars were modified by CGV (Charron, Girardot et Voight).

[Steve99]

Thank you very much for your informed replies. Great stuff

[Vitesse2]

Alamy has the same photo as AAZ, plus another picture of Fournier after the finish, which also shows the infield control tower as above.

 

https://www.alamy.co...e184969605.html

 

https://www.alamy.co...e184969608.html

[robert dick]

Confirmation:
1901 Paris-Berlin, Léonce Girardot in No. 6 Panhard (7,4-litre four-cylinder, 130 x 140 mm) finished second, no surprise as he was already known as the "eternal second".

Fernand Charron (Girardot's business partner at CGV = Charron, Girardot & Voigt) started in an identical Panhard, No. 5
(photo Jules Beau collection, Bibliothèque Nationale/Paris):



= = = =
Another view of the 7,4-litre Paris-Berlin Panhard (Arthur Krebs collection - Krebs was the designer of the Panhard):


 

[Steve99]

Brilliant! Thanks! Only paid a tenner and it’s been worth it for the story.

[Perruqueporte]

These Panhards still look like purpose-built and little-compromise racing cars.

Wonderful!

Thank you.

Christopher W.

[cpbell]

TNF finding the answer as always!

[Charlieman]

These Panhards still look like purpose-built and little-compromise racing cars.

Quite splendid and you can see that the designers were considering ergonomics to a degree. We know a lot about technical specifications and general automotive theory of the time, but it's fun trying to get into the brain of a designer.

 

The exposed radiator may have been problematic if the cars had to start in a group. I wonder how the track and wheelbase were determined by roads intended for other sorts of vehicle. How much foreknowledge of the race route did the designers have? Did the manufacturers consult local experts or conduct a reconnaissance?

[Vitesse2]

Quite splendid and you can see that the designers were considering ergonomics to a degree. We know a lot about technical specifications and general automotive theory of the time, but it's fun trying to get into the brain of a designer.

 

The exposed radiator may have been problematic if the cars had to start in a group. I wonder how the track and wheelbase were determined by roads intended for other sorts of vehicle. How much foreknowledge of the race route did the designers have? Did the manufacturers consult local experts or conduct a reconnaissance?

Cars started at pre-determined intervals in the city-to-city races - just like today's rallies - so the radiator would only have been endangered by flying stones when catching another competitor. Errant livestock was another matter of course - presumably that accounts for the proto- 'bull bars', although they'd probably only have deflected fleeing chickens!

 

This thread might be of interest as it touches on some of your questions ... https://forums.autos...éry-and-velghe/

[dolomite]

Both the Fournier car and the Charron no 5 car have devices fitted around the front wheels, shaped like mudguards but made as an open framework of thin tubes rather than a solid mudguard. What would be the point of those?

[Vitesse2]

Both the Fournier car and the Charron no 5 car have devices fitted around the front wheels, shaped like mudguards but made as an open framework of thin tubes rather than a solid mudguard. What would be the point of those?

Presumably an early example of a way of 'adding lightness' to get round the regulations, which probably stated that front mudguards had to be fitted for both scrutineering and the start. But didn't specify that they had to be (a) of any practical use in protecting the driver and mechanician or (b) still attached at the finish. Rear ones don't seem to have been obligatory - although the driver's side ones on the Mercedes must have been reasonably effective! I have a feeling I've seen pictures which show much less substantial ones on the mechanician's side.

 

https://anno.onb.ac....eite=11&zoom=33

[robert dick]

Paris-Berlin, 120 years ago - from the magazine Motor Age/Chicago,
4 July 1901:








and 18 July 1901:




 

[Roger Clark]

Thank you Robert.  It is perhaps worth noting that yesterday was the 120th anniversary of the finish of this great race.

[Roger Clark]

Presumably an early example of a way of 'adding lightness' to get round the regulations, which probably stated that front mudguards had to be fitted for both scrutineering and the start. But didn't specify that they had to be (a) of any practical use in protecting the driver and mechanician or (b) still attached at the finish. Rear ones don't seem to have been obligatory - although the driver's side ones on the Mercedes must have been reasonably effective! I have a feeling I've seen pictures which show much less substantial ones on the mechanician's side.

 

https://anno.onb.ac....eite=11&zoom=33

I don’t think that is very likely. The Panhards weighed 1,200kgs so the weight of the mudguards would not have been significant. It would be a different matter in 1902 when the 1,000kg maximum weight was imposed. Gerald Rose tells us that exhausts were checked to ensure that they did not disturb dust - a new regulation since Paris-Bordeaux a month earlier. If there was a regulation requiring mudguards, would it have been so lax as to allow what we see here?  There are photos of the Panhards in Paris-Bordeaux showing the same frames. 

[Vitesse2]

Conversely, if there wasn't a regulation about mudguards - or at least specifying some sort of 'construction' around the front wheels - why would they have fitted them in the first place? Robert's pictures of the Panhards show them both with and without them.

 

Admittedly the bodywork on the 35hp Mercedes was somewhat variable, depending on the whim and tastes of the owner, but at least one of the five which competed at La Turbie in 1901 ran without mudguards. So obviously not obligatory there.

 

[lyntonh]

Paris-Berlin, 120 years ago - from the magazine Motor Age/Chicago,
4 July 1901:








and 18 July 1901:




 

The standout result has to be in the tourist division, with Robert Katzenstein causing great amusement by driving backwards for the final thirty kilometres, owing to 'the vehicle's machinery being out of order'.

[Roger Clark]

Conversely, if there wasn't a regulation about mudguards - or at least specifying some sort of 'construction' around the front wheels - why would they have fitted them in the first place? Robert's pictures of the Panhards show them both with and without them.

 

 

I thought they might be a frame over which fabric mudguards could be fitted when needed, but I've found no evidence.  Dust was a major problem in the Paris-Berlin and road conditions in Germany were very poor.  I am, however, appalled by the suggestion that they were a means of getting round the rules.  These were gentlemen, not garagistes.  Except when racing against Germans. of course.