70 replies to this topic

[HP]

I don't think WIlliams letting Newey go would have changed much in the long run. I remember an interview with Sir Frank Williams and Ron Dennis, where SFW pointed out that because of his health he couldn't do a job as good as Ron Dennis. Yet he continued on as TP. That was IMO a bigger mistake than letting Newey go.

 

Not selling out to BMW however was a good thing he did in 20/20, as we've seen what BMW did to Sauber.

 

SFW mentioned once that MSC was a challenge in the race even if he were racing in a shopping trolley. Of course that was a cheeky comment. It revealed to me something very important. The tech war partially introduced by some of the most successful racers out there spiraled into a giant spending spree for the teams. With Ayrton Senna the bill was 1 mil pounds a year and some engine tweaks of Honda to please him. Then it escalated.

 

By the time MSC was dominating, spending went through the roof. I don't blame MSC for that however. Sir Frank Williams was very clear when he said that the only thing they could do to beat him at that time was to build a faster car. Would they have been able to do that with Newey? The aero would have been better most likely, but with all the BMW engine troubles, I dunno. Overheating would have been something they would have had to resolve by making compromises.

 

Yeah, but do not forget the berillium scandal, which imho went quite unnoticed at the time for having such a huge impact

Was gonna mention this too. Yet considering the reasoning behind banning Beryllium that ban was solid IMO. That Illmor failed to adjust the engine was only one thing, after all there were less restrictions one engine development in place at that time.

 

The MP4-18 was designed by Newey and was one of his weakest designs. He, Mercedes and McLaren were working on a tighter packaging. Rory Byrne and Ferrari were the ones that were pushing that development especially at the rear of the car. The MP4-18 was plagued by overheating issues partially because of Newey rathers tight aero concepts.

 

So in terms of money Newey cost much, much more than it looks. He designed sometimes cars that tended to be unreliable.

 

Besides that he definitely is an aero genius and I think over the years at Red Bull they found the right combination of his talents and balanced it out with the right engineers.

Edited by HP, 29 June 2021 - 14:13.

[lustigson]

And that is the debate I recall, who is the better of Newey and Byrne... With my complete unbiased love affair with Ferrari and Schumacher, answer was clearly Byrne... yet in the rearview mirror I am now willing to have Newey get the edge. For some reason I am surprised every single time I see that Newey ever worked at McLaren.

 

 

Congrats to Adrian Newey but let's not forget Rory Byrne indeed.

 

Winner in the 1980s with Benetton.

Winner in the 1990s with Benetton and Ferrari.

Winner in the 2000s with Ferrari.

Winner in the 2010s with Ferrari when he was brought back out of retirement in 2012 as a consultant.

 

That's four decades of race winners...

 

I think Newey's numbers stack up higher, but Byrne isn't far off. He's often forgotten, though.

[HighwayStar]

Bizarre to think that his first race win in F1 was 1991, an astounding 30 years ago, his longevity far surpasses any tech director in the sports history and his car is still fighting for a title this year. Imagine if a designer from 1950 was leading the title fight in 1980! it's  mind numbing. It also answers the 90's favourite debate of Newey Vs Shuey rather decisively.

 

Almost more amazing is that in 30 years of racing his cars have only gone 4 seasons without a race win and 2 of those were spent building Red Bull up from the back of the grid.

 

 

This is certainly an impressive list of F1 machines and an even more impressive list of victories. Having said this, I'd argue his record is even more impressive if you consider the 2007-2009 Toro Rosso cars to be Adrian Newey designs. If you include the STR2, STR3 and STR4, then Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 in the STR3 (I believe based on the same design as the RB4) not only adds yet another victory to this tally but also means that only three Newey designs from 1991 onwards have failed to win a grand prix (MP4/21, RB3/STR2 and RB11). Also, I think McLaren won 7 races in 2000 (4 for Mika Hakkinen and 3 for David Coulthard).

 

I find it interesting that he seemed to experience something of a lean spell in the mid-to-late 2000s, in the seven seasons from 2002 to 2008 his cars scored just five wins in this period if you exclude the MP4/20 (the 2005 McLaren won twice as many races as his other designs from those seasons put together). I do wonder whether McLaren benefitted from the single tyre rule in 2005, even more so than the other Michelin teams such as Renault, as they did much better that season than they did in either 2004 or 2006, with the exact opposite being true for Bridgestone-shod Ferrari. It's ironic that the only other Newey car from 2002 to 2008 to win multiple GPs was the MP4/17D in 2003, which was only used that season due to the issues with the MP4/18, yet Kimi Raikkonen was able to finish just two points short of Michael Schumacher in it.

[taran]

 

SFW mentioned once that MSC was a challenge in the race even if he were racing in a shopping trolley. Of course that was a cheeky comment. It revealed to me something very important. The tech war partially introduced by some of the most successful racers out there spiraled into a giant spending spree for the teams. With Ayrton Senna the bill was 1 mil pounds a year and some engine tweaks of Honda to please him. Then it escalated.

 

 

I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10 or 20....

In 1991, Alesi briefly became the best paid driver with $10m from Ferrari. Alain Prost, then teamleader, was not amused so they bumped up his salary to $12m.

In 1993, Ayrton Senna (in cahoots with Ron Dennis) managed to get $16m from Marlboro. And that's without his personal sponsor(s) such as Nacional.

 

That was subsequently broken by Ferrari paying Schumacher $25m to get him away from Benetton in 1996.....The great team spending war only started in 1998 when Ferrari fought McLaren and both had very deep pockets. Team budgets went from $75m for a top team to $150m...and all others had to follow if they wanted to remain competitive....

[Vesuvius]

This is certainly an impressive list of F1 machines and an even more impressive list of victories. Having said this, I'd argue his record is even more impressive if you consider the 2007-2009 Toro Rosso cars to be Adrian Newey designs. If you include the STR2, STR3 and STR4, then Vettel's win at Monza in 2008 in the STR3 (I believe based on the same design as the RB4) not only adds yet another victory to this tally but also means that only three Newey designs from 1991 onwards have failed to win a grand prix (MP4/21, RB3/STR2 and RB11). Also, I think McLaren won 7 races in 2000 (4 for Mika Hakkinen and 3 for David Coulthard).

I find it interesting that he seemed to experience something of a lean spell in the mid-to-late 2000s, in the seven seasons from 2002 to 2008 his cars scored just five wins in this period if you exclude the MP4/20 (the 2005 McLaren won twice as many races as his other designs from those seasons put together). I do wonder whether McLaren benefitted from the single tyre rule in 2005, even more so than the other Michelin teams such as Renault, as they did much better that season than they did in either 2004 or 2006, with the exact opposite being true for Bridgestone-shod Ferrari. It's ironic that the only other Newey car from 2002 to 2008 to win multiple GPs was the MP4/17D in 2003, which was only used that season due to the issues with the MP4/18, yet Kimi Raikkonen was able to finish just two points short of Michael Schumacher in it.

2005 McLaren for sure benefitted from single tyre rule/Michelins. Back then Michelin did bring different kind of tyres for the teams to the tests and teams could choose the best suited tyres for them to use (said by Kimi, last year).
At Monaco 2005 Mclaren was able to use softer tyres than Renault, due to them being gentle to the tyres and we all know Kimi being one of the most gentle driver to the tyres as well.

Edited by Vesuvius, 29 June 2021 - 19:25.

[Sterzo]

Bizarre to think that his first race win in F1 was 1991, an astounding 30 years ago, his longevity far surpasses any tech director in the sports history and his car is still fighting for a title this year. Imagine if a designer from 1950 was leading the title fight in 1980! it's  mind numbing.

 

Without taking anything away from the points you are making, Vittorio Jano designed cars which won Grand Prix races in 1924 and 1958.

[absinthedude]

I think your numbers are off by a factor of 10 or 20....

In 1991, Alesi briefly became the best paid driver with $10m from Ferrari. Alain Prost, then teamleader, was not amused so they bumped up his salary to $12m.

In 1993, Ayrton Senna (in cahoots with Ron Dennis) managed to get $16m from Marlboro. And that's without his personal sponsor(s) such as Nacional.

 

That was subsequently broken by Ferrari paying Schumacher $25m to get him away from Benetton in 1996.....The great team spending war only started in 1998 when Ferrari fought McLaren and both had very deep pockets. Team budgets went from $75m for a top team to $150m...and all others had to follow if they wanted to remain competitive....

 

I recall an interview with the late John Cooper, made during the previous turbo era in the late 80s....when he bemoaned the fact that he and Jack Brabham had put together the title winning Cooper-Climax team in the late 50s for about £10k. "Whereas nowadays I believe they're talking £15-20 million". Those numbers seemed eye-watering back in the day....but as you rightly point out, a few years later a team might spend approaching that on just one star driver. The fact that Ferrari and McLaren appeared to have bottomless pockets in the 90s is the root of the spending spiralling out of control. 

 

Though one does wonder just what Mercedes and Auto Union were spending in the 1930s....but they were surely government backed. 

 

Once the tobacco money was no longer an option (unless you're called Ferrari) it became increasingly difficult for the teams such as Williams or Benetton to compete...hence the latter selling to Renault and the former eventually sliding down the table. 

 

As for Adrian Newey, the subject of this thread....I don't think you could find another designer in any field of motorsport, letalone F1, who has enjoyed as much consistent success has he. Truly remarkable as he shows no signs of stopping, nor of being any less successful. I am aware he has a team of designers and engineers but still...keeping up with all the changes in the last 30-40 years is remarkable...and as we move towards ground effect F1 cars again, I cannot help but think that his experience in Indycars in the 80s might just come in handy. Totally different beasts but he is the only current F1 designer who has any experience whatsoever of designing and racing ground effect cars. 

[taran]

I am a big fan of Newey’s work (ever since his gorgeous 881) but I was also one of the posters to question his recent work during the off-season.

 

For the last couple of years, Newey has typically created a flawed car which needed a lot of work during the season to become competitive. Now, that can happen every once and again but with a widely respected talent like Newey, that shouldn’t happen in consecutive years.

 

Let’s not forget that the 2021-car is basically a continuation of the 2020-car so it fits with Newey’s recent trend of designing porkers that slowly get turned into swans.

 

Every designer has a sell-by date and Newey’s flagging enthusiasm for F1 design and recent tendency to limp out of the starting gates is cause for concern in my eyes. Newey is 62 and doesn’t like the 2022 regulations. Retiring after winning the 2021 crown(s) wouldn’t be totally unexpected.

[EvilPhil II]

One car I have not heard mentioned yet is the Ligier JS39. 

 

Although Newey didn't design the overall car there was a point when Williams created a floor and front wing for the team in order to help fight off the competition.  It immediately resulted in a huge performance jump for the team.

[absinthedude]

I am a big fan of Newey’s work (ever since his gorgeous 881) but I was also one of the posters to question his recent work during the off-season.

 

For the last couple of years, Newey has typically created a flawed car which needed a lot of work during the season to become competitive. Now, that can happen every once and again but with a widely respected talent like Newey, that shouldn’t happen in consecutive years.

 

Let’s not forget that the 2021-car is basically a continuation of the 2020-car so it fits with Newey’s recent trend of designing porkers that slowly get turned into swans.

 

Every designer has a sell-by date and Newey’s flagging enthusiasm for F1 design and recent tendency to limp out of the starting gates is cause for concern in my eyes. Newey is 62 and doesn’t like the 2022 regulations. Retiring after winning the 2021 crown(s) wouldn’t be totally unexpected.

 

Surely he would already be working on the 2022 car? 

[taran]

Surely he would already be working on the 2022 car? 

 

Let me make clear I am not saying he should retire or that he isn't any good. Just that his recent cars have had issues out of the box and Newey and Red Bull haven't been able to fix that yet.

 

As for his further career, knowing when to stop is the most difficult question. If Hamilton doesn't win another title and gets comprehensively beaten in the next 1-3 years, people will be saying he only became multiple champion due to Mercedes' crushing superiority and when he had a weaker McLaren he only got 1 title. In effect, he will have stayed too long.

 

The 2022 regulations is a reshuffling of the deck and while Newey has a reputation for getting new regulations right, he hasn't really achieved that since 2009. Does he really want to roll the dice once more? He obviously has already started work on the 2022 car but has also said the new regulations don't appeal to him.

 

Nearing retirement age, having to travel 20-23 times a year, excluding testing weeks, not really enjoying your work and longing for new challenges in boats or whatnot. If he does want to change careers, he doesn't have much time left. I am sure all these things are going through his mind. Maybe the challenge of dominating a new era is enough to re-energise him....Maybe retiring on a high with two titles appeals to him? With his glittering career, he has nothing left to prove/achieve but a lot to lose if others get it right and start dominating the new era.

 

At this moment, I'd say it's anybody's guess.

[KWSN - DSM]

Let me make clear I am not saying he should retire or that he isn't any good. Just that his recent cars have had issues out of the box and Newey and Red Bull haven't been able to fix that yet.

 

As for his further career, knowing when to stop is the most difficult question. If Hamilton doesn't win another title and gets comprehensively beaten in the next 1-3 years, people will be saying he only became multiple champion due to Mercedes' crushing superiority and when he had a weaker McLaren he only got 1 title. In effect, he will have stayed too long.

 

The 2022 regulations is a reshuffling of the deck and while Newey has a reputation for getting new regulations right, he hasn't really achieved that since 2009. Does he really want to roll the dice once more? He obviously has already started work on the 2022 car but has also said the new regulations don't appeal to him.

 

Nearing retirement age, having to travel 20-23 times a year, excluding testing weeks, not really enjoying your work and longing for new challenges in boats or whatnot. If he does want to change careers, he doesn't have much time left. I am sure all these things are going through his mind. Maybe the challenge of dominating a new era is enough to re-energise him....Maybe retiring on a high with two titles appeals to him? With his glittering career, he has nothing left to prove/achieve but a lot to lose if others get it right and start dominating the new era.

 

At this moment, I'd say it's anybody's guess.

 

I think you are VERY harsh.

[PlatenGlass]

Was it even that harsh?

[ARTGP]

Let me make clear I am not saying he should retire or that he isn't any good. Just that his recent cars have had issues out of the box and Newey and Red Bull haven't been able to fix that yet.

 

As for his further career, knowing when to stop is the most difficult question. If Hamilton doesn't win another title and gets comprehensively beaten in the next 1-3 years, people will be saying he only became multiple champion due to Mercedes' crushing superiority and when he had a weaker McLaren he only got 1 title. In effect, he will have stayed too long.

 

The 2022 regulations is a reshuffling of the deck and while Newey has a reputation for getting new regulations right, he hasn't really achieved that since 2009. Does he really want to roll the dice once more? He obviously has already started work on the 2022 car but has also said the new regulations don't appeal to him.

 

The 2014 Red Bull was not bad aerodynamically. They simply had a GP2 engine relative to the Mercedes.

 

Also, regarding the Hamilton bit, people have said that before, and they'll say that even when he wins in a wheelbarrow. Those that don't like him, just don't like him. Don't worry, Max, and whoever else wins the title will get the same treatment.  It will all balance out in the end.

Edited by ARTGP, 01 July 2021 - 00:26.

[kumo7]

Newey had won titles, but so as others. He is a kind of branding of Formula 1. 

Even if a dsigner did not win as many titles as Newey did, it does not take away that this designer bares less importance in Formula One, doen't it?

Barnard, for example...

[ARTGP]

Newey had won titles, but so as others. He is a kind of branding of Formula 1. 

Even if a dsigner did not win as many titles as Newey did, it does not take away that this designer bares less importance in Formula One, doen't it?

Barnard, for example...

 

They may well have, but this is the Newey appreciation thread 

[kumo7]

They may well have, but this is the Newey appreciation thread 

 

His cars are awesome, I mean it. 

Patric got great input into it. I sort of think that Newey was never alone in putting "his" car on the track, ...

[FullOppositeLock]

Was it even that harsh?

 

Yes. Without wanting to have the same discussion we had in the Red Bull technical thread at the time, taran's views and his conclusion at the time that Newey was "passed it" and needed replacing was extremely harsh for two reasons:

 

1) while you can say "for the last couple of years, Newey has typically created a flawed car which needed a lot of work during the season to become competitive" the flipside of that is that the cars Newey has designed over recent years have all shown that in terms of potential they were amongst the absolute class of the field. Going with a basic design first and feeling your way towards unleashing that potential may be a weakness if unintentional, but I don't believe it's unintentional per se. Of course, when they had correlation issues a few years back that was unintentional, but it is also very clear that Red Bull like to do a lot of development in-season where they can test components on track on Friday's with flow vis and determine what works under which circumstances rather than over rely on design software and simulations. It's entirely possible, and even quite probable in my opinion, that Newey feels that this is the most efficient way to design a race winning F1 car. Other teams, notably Mercedes are usually fast out of the box, but develop relatively little during the season, meaning they hit the potential of their design much earlier, but the ultimate potential may be less. We're even seeing it this year.

 

2) horsepower, horsepower, horsepower. The gap has come down year by year, but in this hybrid era Newey has for the most part had to contend with underpowered power units, the deficiencies of which his designs have had to deal with. You can only put so much downforce on the car before you're a sitting duck on the straight. I think this year we are seeing what a Newey designed car can do with a power unit that can match Mercedes for grunt. How many more race wins and championship battles would Red Bull have had if they had a power unit to match Mercedes' over the last couple of years?

 

I wouldn't trade him for anyone if I were Red Bull and I suspect he will be a massive miss for them when he eventually retires.

[cjm321190]

Remember this Newey will Continue, not for money but these guys have a passion for their job. I bet he does not consider it a job they love it so much.

[DeKnyff]

Newey had won titles, but so as others. He is a kind of branding of Formula 1. 

Even if a dsigner did not win as many titles as Newey did, it does not take away that this designer bares less importance in Formula One, doen't it?

Barnard, for example...

 

They may well have, but this is the Newey appreciation thread 

 

The number of titles won necessarily has to be a measurement of the importance a designer bares in the History of F1. Maybe not the only one, but certainly a very significant one. After all, this is a sport, it's all about who wins.

[kumo7]

The number of titles won necessarily has to be a measurement of the importance a designer bares in the History of F1. Maybe not the only one, but certainly a very significant one. After all, this is a sport, it's all about who wins.

Yup, it’s like calling who is the real winner. I like Julia Michaels…