143 replies to this topic

[Risil]

Between Youtube, F1TV and various other services, there are a lot of full and partial race broadcasts you can watch while working from home very hard. I thought it might be good to have a catch-all thread to deposit any orphan questions or stray observations that pop into your head that would otherwise have nowhere to go.

 

For instance, in the 1998 Japanese Grand Prix, Michael Schumacher stalls on the grid but still manages to get up into the podium places by lap 18. Which prompts two questions: if his charge hadn't been halted by random circumstance, did he have a realistic path to winning the race? and how on earth did he make such rapid progress? I noticed from previous races that whenever the TV director shows Jean Todt on the warpath through the pitlane, we normally soon hear that he's been asking various teams to get their drivers to jump out of Michael's way. Was that in operation here, or was it all down to Michael's admittedly phenomenal control of a very fast Ferrari?

 

Also in the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix, wtf was David Coulthard doing at the first start? He's obviously gone wide for some reason at the exit of La Source, but when he loses control a few hundred yards later he's already pointing at a 45 degree angle from the wall. 

[Afterburner]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

[P123]

Suzuka 98- Huge field spread with the 'next best' being  2s per lap off the pace, and FIA warning of drivers 'not to interfere' with the championship battle and some very compliant backmarkers.

 

Belgium 98- did DC not collide with Irvine at first and lose it on a drain cover?

[P123]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

Sure McLaren put that down to a bonding failure.. or something like that.  But I have vague memory of more rear wing failures than that.

[Risil]

Suzuka 98- Huge field spread with the 'next best' being  2s per lap off the pace, and FIA warning of drivers 'not to interfere' with the championship battle and some very compliant backmarkers.

 

Belgium 98- did DC not collide with Irvine at first and lose it on a drain cover?

 

This is what I wanted! Murray and Martin are terrifically entertaining but you only get so much context from watching a broadcast as-live.

 

You can see a Ferrari running DC wide in the classic "La Source from above" cam but then the rest of the incident is lost behind the spray. I'd always assumed Coulthard had aquaplaned but the track was dry enough that many drivers were running intermediates. Hitting a drain cover while improvising a new racing line (track limits! bring back gravel and grass!) makes a great deal of sense.

[Peat]

 

 

Also in the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix, wtf was David Coulthard doing at the first start? He's obviously gone wide for some reason at the exit of La Source, but when he loses control a few hundred yards later he's already pointing at a 45 degree angle from the wall. 

 

 

My take on that was that it is not uncommon for F1 cars to spin the wheels in 4th/5th gear in the wet. Especially then. Also, in that configuration of Spa, the extra bit of asphalt next to the, then, road was joined by a line of molten tar. You can see the black line on that image^. That would be slippery like a painted line.  Any number of factors could have been at play there, could have been a drain cover, the track there at the transition looks darker so it may have been standing water. Who knows, but I have never considered his loss of control to be either suspicious or inept considering the track conditions that day. 

[messy]

The sea basically parted for Schumacher at Suzuka, which was interesting because earlier in the season that absolutely didn't happen (remember him banging wheels with Wurz at Monaco, or Hill weaving in front of him in Canada?) but because of the title battle and quite possibly Ferrari's clout in F1 and the fact that people secretly quite wanted Schumacher/Ferrari to win it, everyone just dived out of the way and let him get on with it. Those laps were very impressive, but the McLaren and Ferrari were so much quicker than the rest that weekend. IIRC Schumacher was on course for second place (having got up to third) when he had his blow-out, but Hakkinen was out of reach. Had he been able to start from pole , I think Mika only had to finish second behind him? Which I'm assuming he would have under normal circumstances, so they'd have needed to do something a bit naughty to give him a chance really. 

 

I don't think Schumacher lost the title here, he lost it when he crashed into the back of Coulthard at Spa. 

[Risil]

Yeah, if Mika followed a victorious Schumacher home he'd have won the title on second places. Ferrari would've needed to get Irvine involved or hope for a McLaren disaster (and to be fair there'd been a few of those).

I sort of follow Brundle's analysis at the time, which was that whatever the reason, Schumacher was frequently over-driving the car and beserker tactics like that often lead to trouble. He nearly lost it in Hungary even after he had the race in the bag, for example. Thrilling to watch though, and we know what happened when they fully clicked.

[messy]

Schumacher was visibly on the edge in 1998 - you'd watch a quali lap and Hakkinen would waft through, inch perfect, then Schumacher would be hacking away at the wheel, running wide and kicking up dirt as his car snapped on the exit, totally spellbindingly on the edge. And it would often (at least early in the season) only be for P3 behind the McLarens. But you could see the effort. In Argentina, Silverstone and Hungary he lost it at one stage through 'overdriving' but those three races yielded 30 points so he got away with it. 

Edited by messy, 30 June 2021 - 13:02.

[TomNokoe]

I was watching USA 2004 a few months ago and could not understand how the Ferraris had managed to retain the lead from Sato, despite making a fuel stop, when Sato was only a few seconds behind them.

My educated guess was that it was due to Sato crawling down the pit straight to avoid the debris from Ralf's crash, but for some reason it was never broadcast, replayed or discussed in commentary, so I was left nonethewiser. I even checked out the Racing Comments Archive to try and figure it out.

I'm almost certain that *is* the answer, and in fact I think this very race and explanation was mentioned on Beyond The Grid recently. What a lost opportunity it was for BAR that day, along with Button's engine penalty at Germany the same year.

I watched Japan 98 for the first time maybe 18 months ago and was absolutely amazed at Schumacher's charge. I can't believe it isn't more famous.

To the same tune, why isn't Schumacher's Imola 99 performance more famous, too?! It was basically a re-run of Hungary 98, and I'd argue even better, plus it was in front of an Italian crowd! Great drive.

Edited by TomNokoe, 30 June 2021 - 13:25.

[P123]

This is what I wanted! Murray and Martin are terrifically entertaining but you only get so much context from watching a broadcast as-live.

 

You can see a Ferrari running DC wide in the classic "La Source from above" cam but then the rest of the incident is lost behind the spray. I'd always assumed Coulthard had aquaplaned but the track was dry enough that many drivers were running intermediates. Hitting a drain cover while improvising a new racing line (track limits! bring back gravel and grass!) makes a great deal of sense.

According to Autosport:

 

 

David was disappointed not to get pole which Mika snatched on the last lap. The race was run in rain. DC and Irvine went into the first corner side by side, but they collided and after hitting the wall DC bounced across the track resulting in total carnage and 9 cars being wiped out.

 

And DC:

 

 

In the initial start of the race I was hit from behind after the hairpin which turned me violently right and into the wall. I was a passenger from then on as the car spun and was hit again in the ensuing mayhem.

[Astandahl]

 

It's not a race, but this lap should be more famous. It's lost in the black hole of youtube....

[Afterburner]

 
It's not a race, but this lap should be more famous. It's lost in the black hole of youtube....

That slide at 1:26 or so of the first lap is nuts!

[JeePee]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

A year earlier. Ralph Firman at the Hungaroring:

 

[Maustinsj]

Didn't Villeneuve's rear wing fail in a Williams in 98 or 99?

[DeKnyff]

Also in the 1998 Belgian Grand Prix, wtf was David Coulthard doing at the first start? He's obviously gone wide for some reason at the exit of La Source, but when he loses control a few hundred yards later he's already pointing at a 45 degree angle from the wall. 

 

A year earlier. Ralph Firman at the Hungaroring.

 

And of course, there is the rear wing failure of both Lotus (Hill and Rindt) at the 1969 Spanish GP. Rindt is pictured in the photo, I guess the debris on the bottom of the image is from Hill's car. Those accidents led to the ban of high wings.

 

[Collombin]

Ickx's Brabham had a rear wing collapse in that race too, but because he didn't crash and wasn't in a Lotus it never gets mentioned.

[Risil]

Didn't Villeneuve's rear wing fail in a Williams in 98 or 99?

In his first race for BAR at the 1999 Australian Grand Prix, certainly. Teammate Ricardo Zonta was pulled into the pits for a check later in the race too.

[Bleu]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

 

It was much different to every other rear wing failure. Basically just the top part flew off while end plates stayed in the car until it hit the wall.

[John B]

I watched Imola 1982 largely to revisit the show the Ferrari and Renault drivers put on by agreement for the benefit of the crowd since half the teams boycotted. Sad of course knowing what was to come for Ferrari...

[ARTGP]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

 

It was a programmable feature    /s .

 

They also activated it for him in Spain 2002:

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=uxCQgHjzOT8

 

Amazing the man isn't traumatized by what Mclaren did to him all those years....A car built from chocolate.

Edited by ARTGP, 30 June 2021 - 17:12.

[PayasYouRace]

Not a race I’ve watched recently, but WTF happened to Kimi Raikkonen’s rear wing at Hockenheim in 2004? Haven’t seen a failure like that before or since. It was as if God pressed the ejector seat button on it.

 

Add Michael Schumacher's Benetton in Hungary 1992 to the list.

 

[ANF]

A year earlier. Ralph Firman at the Hungaroring:

Jordan had already had a rear wing failure at Barcelona testing in January:

Q: The rear wing came off the car today (Thursday). What happened?
The rear beam wing broke when it was highly loaded on the main straight. This was caused by a combination of things. What we do know is that it is a stronger component than we used last year and we are doing some modifications tonight which will increase the strength, new components will be completely revised.
https://us.motorspor...jordan/1015402/

Edited by ANF, 30 June 2021 - 17:11.

[ANF]

It was a programmable feature    /s .
 
They also activated it for him in Spain 2002:
 
https://www.youtube....h?v=uxCQgHjzOT8
 
Amazing the man isn't traumatized by what Mclaren did to him all those years....A car built from chocolate.

John Watson mentioned another rear wing failure earlier that day. It was Mark Webber in the warm-up session:

[NewMrMe]

Add Michael Schumacher's Benetton in Hungary 1992 to the list.

 

 

I think that was caused by Martin Brundle tapping the back of Schumacher's car earlier in the race. It damaged the wing support.

[Maustinsj]

In his first race for BAR at the 1999 Australian Grand Prix, certainly. Teammate Ricardo Zonta was pulled into the pits for a check later in the race too.

 

Found it!

 

Edited by Maustinsj, 30 June 2021 - 18:42.

[Risil]

Look at that colourful shot! Bright red car, bright yellow car, black car, bright blue car.

[JimmyClark]

Rear wings used to fall off quite often in that period. Sauber withdrew from the 2000 Brazilian GP after the wings fell off both cars. 

 

Schumacher was visibly on the edge in 1998 - you'd watch a quali lap and Hakkinen would waft through, inch perfect, then Schumacher would be hacking away at the wheel, running wide and kicking up dirt as his car snapped on the exit, totally spellbindingly on the edge. And it would often (at least early in the season) only be for P3 behind the McLarens. But you could see the effort. In Argentina, Silverstone and Hungary he lost it at one stage through 'overdriving' but those three races yielded 30 points so he got away with it. 

 

Well the car was nearly 1s off the pace at the start of the season, and to be honest it really didn't deserve to be in the title fight. He drove the wheels off that thing all season, almost literally at points. 

 

His flying trip through the gravel in Austria was another spectacular one that season not mentioned above. 

 

It wasn't helped that even Schumacher had the weight of winning the title for Ferrari on his shoulders - they hadn't won it since 1979 at that point. So he was prone to mistakes; the relief when he won in Suzuka 2000 is clear to see in the cockpit. You could almost see the weight lifting off him in that instant. 

[JordanIreland]

Fisichella’s 1998 Benetton had a rear wing failure in Oz: https://youtu.be/hvSYM81Bz_Y (at 3:07)

[JordanIreland]

Forgot about Saubers major rear wing failure in Brazil 2000: https://youtu.be/n_1ZkWs4pSs (at 0:33)

[JordanIreland]

Look at that colourful shot! Bright red car, bright yellow car, black car, bright blue car.

The yellow Jordan’s were easy to spot

[JordanIreland]

Does anyone know what caused this with Senna in 1992? https://youtu.be/Ni6b-BuRgmU

[Beamer]

Look at that colourful shot! Bright red car, bright yellow car, black car, bright blue car.

We've got plenty of color! greyish black, greenish black, white with red, white with different red, white with gray, blue with something, different blue with something else, blue with yet something else and orange!,

[messy]

Look at that colourful shot! Bright red car, bright yellow car, black car, bright blue car.

2000 was the best year of all time for F1 liveries and colours, nobody will ever convince me otherwise.

‘99 wasn’t far behind - but the Jaguar, Arrows and the fluorescent green Telefonica Minardi made the difference.

[Ben24]

Found it!

 

It's amazing how much action there was back then compared to now. Even the more boring races 20+ years ago tended to at least have a lot of crazy things happen in the midfield. 

[Lights]

Was just watching the 2016 Brazilian GP. On lap 20 there was a SC restart. 

 

Vettel was driving in P17, behind Massa when Raikkonen from P3 crashed on the pit straight.

There were almost instant yellow flags, and then some 7 seconds later the SC was called.

 

Right after the SC was called, Vettel passed Massa near Raikkonen's accident.

Surely that was overtaking under yellows and/or overtaking under SC conditions.

 

When Hulkenberg pitted on lap 22 under the SC, he dropped back in the middle of Vettel and Massa. So technically when the race got going again on lap 31, this illegal overtake even gained Vettel 2 places on track.

 

How was Vettel not penalised for this? I can't find anything about it, and nobody, including the commentators, seem to have noticed it.

[Izzyeviel]

Theres a reason its called 'Ferrari International Assistance'

[Brawn BGP 001]

Still dunno how Coulthard lost the win in Austria 1999 was 10 secs ahead of Irvine when he pitted. Five laps later, Irvine pitted and was 2 secs ahead.

 

All can't be fuel related, Coulthard must have been sleeping a bit behind the wheel 

 

Irvine was 1.5 sec quicker in pit lane according to Forix.

Edited by Brawn BGP 001, 30 June 2021 - 23:22.

[PlatenGlass]

Still dunno how Coulthard lost the win in Austria 1999 was 10 secs ahead of Irvine when he pitted. Five laps later, Irvine pitted and was 2 secs ahead.

All can't be fuel related, Coulthard must have been sleeping a bit behind the wheel

Irvine was 1.5 sec quicker in pit lane according to Forix.

Sleeping behind the wheel / not given the hurry up by his team.

Same when he lost Aida in 1995. It seemed impossible to lose. And Damon Hill at Silverstone in 1995 when Schumacher was stuck behind Alesi for most of his first stint and dropping back from Hill quickly.

It's difficult to know where the blame lies. Teams can get complacent and tell the driver everything is OK.

[ARTGP]

Forgot about Saubers major rear wing failure in Brazil 2000: https://youtu.be/n_1ZkWs4pSs (at 0:33)

 

What I never understand about many of the RW accidents is surely the driver noticed the change in drag level....It's like opening the DRS, even more so. Engine note should change, car should be going even faster. The ride height at the rear should go up. Yet they barrel into the corner like they haven't noticed. Odd. Ignorance is bliss I guess?

Edited by ARTGP, 01 July 2021 - 02:40.

[FirstnameLastname]

Imagine spa 98 but with the modern access to onboard cameras… I want to see rossets onboard! And the onboards from the fisichella/Nakano crash

[Currahee]

I seem to remember everyone jumping out of Schumachers way in Japan.

[Dhillon]

1998 Australia, "Alonso is faster than you" moment 

 

So many 1998 memories in this thread, What an epic season it was 

[Ali_G]

I believe Johnny Herbert was the reason Irvine lost the 99 World Championship. Can anyone tell me why?

[Henri Greuter]

What I never understand about many of the RW accidents is surely the driver noticed the change in drag level....It's like opening the DRS, even more so. Engine note should change, car should be going even faster. The ride height at the rear should go up. Yet they barrel into the corner like they haven't noticed. Odd. Ignorance is bliss I guess?

 

Not within F1 but in 1990, Roberto Guerrero had a massive crash at Indy in practice with a March 90CA-Alfa Romeo after the rear wing broke off.

His comment was something like the effect of that he had hardly noticed it happen because of the car being so lousy to drive that any change on the rear wing appeared to have little to no impact whatsoever when in a straight line.

 

Poor quality wing standard components used was the reason for the crash.

Curiously, there was a second, different March chassis being used that same year by the Porsche team (the radical type 90P) . The two March projects were so much separated from another that the Porsche group within March went out to look for a different supplier of such standard after they found out that their initial choise was already supplying the "Collonents" (or "Oppegues" if you prefer) of the Alfa group!

[Henri Greuter]

As for 2000:  During the Indy GP, the sudden retirement of Fisichella, He made a stop and then he was gone from the race!

 

When you find footage of the pits stop, one of the wheels wasn't fitted properly so he had to park the car in Turn 4 of the oval......

[cjm321190]

It's amazing how much action there was back then compared to now. Even the more boring races 20+ years ago tended to at least have a lot of crazy things happen in the midfield.

I do wonder if the racing would have been even better with those cars on the modern circuits, more variety and wider circuits.

Circuits get bigger then so do the cars, remember when they first went to Sepang and how wide the racetrack was.

[JeePee]

What I never understand about many of the RW accidents is surely the driver noticed the change in drag level....It's like opening the DRS, even more so. Engine note should change, car should be going even faster. The ride height at the rear should go up. Yet they barrel into the corner like they haven't noticed. Odd. Ignorance is bliss I guess?

A lot of the rear wing failures occur just a few moments before the breaking zone. You already lose the car when you look a the brake pedal, because the rears instantly lock.

[Nemo1965]

I have a question that has been bugging for me for a while. At the start of the famous, now immortalized and fictionalised Le Mans 1966, there is an incident between a Ford GT (I believe nr. 8, the Whitmore /Gardner /Salmon car of Alan Mann Racing) and a Ferrari that I can't see the number from. Moment starts at 1:57 in the video.

 

 

https://youtu.be/7rrVOVuwPV0

 

It is only for a whisker that the yellow Ford GT does not wipe out another Ford to the right of him or that the number 8 spins right into the onstorming field. 

 

What I find strange is that neither in the Ford vs Ferrari-film, nor in the official Ford-documentary, nor in any book I've read about the Le Mans-race of that year the incident is mentioned. I find that strange. Has anyone else noticed that moment on footage? This could have been a catastrophic accident.

Edited by Nemo1965, 01 July 2021 - 07:19.

[messy]

To be fair, Spain and Hungary 1999 were two of the most brutally dull F1 races of all time so they weren't all great.