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Alfa V10 F1 engine for sale

Started by TennisUK , Jul 02 2021 18:38

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11 replies to this topic

#1 TennisUK

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Posted 02 July 2021 - 18:38

Note quite sure where this should go on this forum, but some new info on the ad:

https://collectingca...o-v10-f1-engine

It says it was 'built for the 1990 F1 season' (was it?), 'intended to power the Ligier JS33' (really?!), ' though last minute disagreements between Ligier and Alfa Romeo prevented the engine from making it to the grid.' (sounds suspiciously like 1987 to me?)

Full ad for posterity - as it expires soon - quite a few things that sound wrong to me:

KEY FACTS

A very rare 3.5-litre V10 Alfa Romeo ‘V1035’ engine, capable of producing around 620bhp
Thought to be one of only 15 units originally built for the 1990 Formula One Season, intended to power the Ligier JS33, though last minute disagreements between Ligier and Alfa Romeo prevented the engine from making it to the grid.
Alfa used the V1035 engine in its 164 Pro-Car, which was planned to race in a new Formula One support series. Unfortunately the Pro-Car series was cancelled, due to a lack of entrants by other manufactures. However, the car made an impressive demonstration at the 1988 Monza Grand Prix, at the hands of Riccardo Patrese. On the straights it was significantly faster than the F1 cars that day.
Later, Alfa Romeo expressed interest in Group C racing and the 24 Hours of Le Mans, intending to use the ‘V1035’-powered SE 048SP, but the budget was diverted to the marque’s DTM project.

MAINTENANCE

It has been kept in storage with Alfa Romeo until very recently. Technicians have performed a recent inspection, concluding that this V1035 has had very little use, as it retains the original cross-hatching in the cylinders. It has also passed a leak-down test, and appears to be in excellent order.

SUMMARY

This Alfa Romeo 3.5-litre V10 is understood to be one of only 15 units built for the 1990 Formula One season – though it never made it to the grid. It has undergone a recent inspection, and would now make a desirable ‘show and display’ piece for a Formula One fanatic or passionate Alfa enthusiast, or could even power an interesting race car project.

The description of this auction lot is, to the best of the seller's knowledge, accurate and not misleading. Collecting Cars requests a range of detail about the lot from the seller, and performs a level of due diligence. However, bidders must satisfy themselves as to the accuracy of the description, and conduct any research they feel is necessary before committing to a bid. Please see our Terms and Conditions for full details

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#2 Lee Nicolle

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Posted 02 July 2021 - 22:32

29000 pounds. I hope someone had the right car to fit it to.

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#3 arttidesco

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 05:58

KEY FACTS

A very rare 3.5-litre V10 Alfa Romeo ‘V1035’ engine, capable of producing around 620bhp
Thought to be one of only 15 units originally built for the 1990 Formula One Season, intended to power the Ligier JS33, though last minute disagreements between Ligier and Alfa Romeo prevented the engine from making it to the grid.

A thought is hardly a fact, however if the turbo 4 cyl 415T had not been such a fiasco in 1987 and if Rene had not been so publically vocal about it, then the possibility may have been foreseeable that the collaberation twixt ALFA and Ligier would have continued and this V10 engine might have been destined to power the JS33.

Edited by arttidesco, 03 July 2021 - 05:59.

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#4 TennisUK

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 06:17

The JS33 was raced in 1989 as well as 1990 though…

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#5 arttidesco

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 10:16

The JS33 was raced in 1989 as well as 1990 though…

The V10 made it's first appearance in 1988 so in theory if the partnership between Ligier and ALFA had flourished there is no reason to believe it would not have been ready for the start of the 1989 F1 season ;-)

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#6 guiporsche

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 16:26

Pino d'Agostino, the ingegnere who headed the design of the V10 has given a couple of interviews to Autosprint and D. Cironi where he talks about his work. There's also an older Veloce article where the genesis of the engine is explained - so it's surprising, or rather quite unsurprising, to see so much non-sense being written by the auctioner and then being copy-pasted by all these crappy websites.

The V10 started being designed in early 1986 (February, it seems) but the order to start its design came in late 85. It made it to the test bench for the first time in July 1986: it was the first V10 of the 3.5L era, ahead of Honda's. It was supposed to eventually run with Ligier but of course that did not happen for the above-stated reasons & above all because FIAT was (quite rightly) uninterested in financing two F1 efforts running two different engines. The V10 was most certainly not supposed to run in 1990 because by then Alfa had...its hands full (~~getting its ass kicked~~) with a V8 turbo in Indycars (for a good read written by a TNF'er: http://8w.forix.com/...aftermath.html; but do check Pino's interview with Cironi on youtube).

Anyways, the V10 was initially left on the side, then picked up for the Pro-Car and eventually for the stillborn Group C prototype, the SE 048SP, which was the LC2's spiritual successor. In-between FIAT finally decided to put Alfa on the Indycar series, an Ilmor engine was allegedly ( :cat: ) 'borrowed' by Alfa but the whole effort turned to nought anyways, when a more inspired (marketing decision) put Abarth in charge of winning the DTM with 155 (still with Pino, who would later go on to Ferrari in its dream years) - but that's another story...

The V10 is probably a surplus remnant from the Procar effort.

Edited by guiporsche, 03 July 2021 - 16:27.

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#7 TennisUK

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 20:16

The V10 made it's first appearance in 1988 so in theory if the partnership between Ligier and ALFA had flourished there is no reason to believe it would not have been ready for the start of the 1989 F1 season ;-)

Possibly - though the notes say 1990 - and the excuse they provide for it not happening is very familiar to 1987.

And if you were Alfa, why would you want to go back with Ligier - who not only had made a mess of their relationship in 1987, but also built an utter dog in 1988.

I don’t have a great deal of faith in the sales notes.

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#8 TennisUK

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 20:18

Pino d'Agostino, the ingegnere who headed the design of the V10 has given a couple of interviews to Autosprint and D. Cironi where he talks about his work. There's also an older Veloce article where the genesis of the engine is explained - so it's surprising, or rather quite unsurprising, to see so much non-sense being written by the auctioner and then being copy-pasted by all these crappy websites.

The V10 started being designed in early 1986 (February, it seems) but the order to start its design came in late 85. It made it to the test bench for the first time in July 1986: it was the first V10 of the 3.5L era, ahead of Honda's. It was supposed to eventually run with Ligier but of course that did not happen for the above-stated reasons & above all because FIAT was (quite rightly) uninterested in financing two F1 efforts running two different engines. The V10 was most certainly not supposed to run in 1990 because by then Alfa had...its hands full (~~getting its ass kicked~~) with a V8 turbo in Indycars (for a good read written by a TNF'er: http://8w.forix.com/...aftermath.html; but do check Pino's interview with Cironi on youtube).

Anyways, the V10 was initially left on the side, then picked up for the Pro-Car and eventually for the stillborn Group C prototype, the SE 048SP, which was the LC2's spiritual successor. In-between FIAT finally decided to put Alfa on the Indycar series, an Ilmor engine was allegedly ( ) 'borrowed' by Alfa but the whole effort turned to nought anyways, when a more inspired (marketing decision) put Abarth in charge of winning the DTM with 155 (still with Pino, who would later go on to Ferrari in its dream years) - but that's another story...

The V10 is probably a surplus remnant from the Procar effort.

Very much agree. Too much in this auction either contradicts the known narrative or is illogical (e.g cancelling a 1990 engine due to the DTM rule set that came in for 1993? I don’t think so….)

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#9 arttidesco

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Posted 03 July 2021 - 23:26

Possibly - though the notes say 1990 - and the excuse they provide for it not happening is very familiar to 1987.

And if you were Alfa, why would you want to go back with Ligier - who not only had made a mess of their relationship in 1987, but also built an utter dog in 1988.

I don’t have a great deal of faith in the sales notes.

Well it was all thirty years ago so a year or two out is not that big a deal for sales notes which are rarely ever a good substitute for a properly researched history, 'caveat emptor' in all things ;-)