1192 replies to this topic

[goldenboy]

Piastri starting to show better raw speed and potential, he may have a similar situation like Norris and Sainz, he's been out of racing a year, and may take time to adjust with tyre wear and experience,  but his raw speed is starting to look faster than Norris's.

I'm a fan of Oscar, but speed looks similar at best to me. 

[Giz]

Piastri starting to show better raw speed and potential, he may have a similar situation like Norris and Sainz, he's been out of racing a year, and may take time to adjust with tyre wear and experience, but his raw speed is starting to look faster than Norris's.

maybe wait till quali battle is at least 10-5 before suggesting that

[Button4life]

Piastri starting to show better raw speed and potential, he may have a similar situation like Norris and Sainz, he's been out of racing a year, and may take time to adjust with tyre wear and experience, but his raw speed is starting to look faster than Norris's.

Reading this is quite funny knowing today is the 2nd time he beat Norris in qualifying. Just like in Saudi Arabia he needed Norris to damage the car to do that.

[ForzaFormula]

Reading this is quite funny knowing today is the 2nd time he beat Norris in qualifying. Just like in Saudi Arabia he needed Norris to damage the car to do that.

If you try read my post better you will see it says like Sainz vs Norris, Norris was having the same when he first entered formula 1, it can take time, I am taking about raw speed and potential, which Norris also showed to have more of than Sainz despite losing out to him.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 28 July 2023 - 16:46.

[Button4life]

If you try read my post better you will see it says like Sainz vs Norris, Norris was having the same when he first entered formula 1, it can take time, I am taking about raw speed and potential, which Norris also showed to have more of than Sainz despite losing out to him.

Norris beat Sainz in his first qualifying session and beat Sainz 10-9 in qualy over the season in his rookie season. Norris is 10-2 ahead currently. It’s not even close to being the same.

[ForzaFormula]

Norris beat Sainz in his first qualifying session and beat Sainz 10-9 in qualy over the season in his rookie season. Norris is 10-2 ahead currently. It’s not even close to being the same.

I never said he would beat him, Piastri has been out of racing for one year, and is starting to show good speed and at the least matching Norris in qualifying the last sessions...

 

Why can't you give him credit? Instead of being on the defensive of Norris straight away.

Edited by ForzaFormula, 28 July 2023 - 16:58.

[Button4life]

I never said he would beat him, Piastri has been out of racing for one year, and is starting to show good speed and at the least matching Norris in qualifying the last sessions...

Why can't you give him credit? Instead of being on the defensive of Norris straight away.

Because this thread is about Norris. Not Piastri nor the McLaren team…

[uzsjgb]

I'm a fan of Oscar, but speed looks similar at best to me. 

 

Which, of course, is really bad news for Norris. I fear we are in one of those rare situations where a top driver is in the right place at the right time, only for somebody even better to come along. If we are lucky this can turn into a remake of the Prost/Senna rivalry at McLaren.

[ForzaFormula]

Because this thread is about Norris. Not Piastri nor the McLaren team…

Exactly and we are seeing if Norris can yet be classed as Elite, so he will be judged by his performances against team mates.

[ForzaFormula]

Which, of course, is really bad news for Norris. I fear we are in one of those rare situations where a top driver is in the right place at the right time, only for somebody even better to come along. If we are lucky this can turn into a remake of the Prost/Senna rivalry at McLaren.

Oscar has had a year out of racing but he is showing some fast speed now he is getting back into racing again, he don't have the experience to beat Norris on race day yet especially when tyre wear comes into it but we may see him develop and start to do better eventually, Norris will have to keep pushing.

[Boxerevo]

Oscar can be new goat of speed one day, but on this i have to agree with the people saying that it is very premature to judge anything.

 

But i am glad the kid is showing some speed.

[Button4life]

Exactly and we are seeing if Norris can yet be classed as Elite, so he will be judged by his performances against team mates.

 

Piastri gets praised a lot for some reason. I do think he's doing good job, but nothing out of the extraodinary. The only time Piastri has beaten Norris in qualifying was when Norris had damage. The qualifying battle is 10-2 in favour of Norris. Piastri has only beaten Norris once in a race (Saudi Arabia) where Norris didn't have a penalty or incident. The race battle is 8-3 in favour of Norris. 7-1 if you only count the races without penalties, incidents and retirements. In the points standings, Norris is 60-27 ahead. If Piastri really is doing as good as this forum is trying to make out to be. How good must Norris then be? Easily elite right...

Edited by Button4life, 28 July 2023 - 17:18.

[Dara]

If Norris isn't elite because he didn't win a race yet, surely then we must agree that Maldonado IS an elite driver...

[PayasYouRace]

If Norris isn't elite because he didn't win a race yet, surely then we must agree that Maldonado IS an elite driver...

He did win in the lowest WCC position Williams to win a race.

[ARTGP]

He did win in the lowest WCC position Williams to win a race.

 

Did you happen to enjoy throwing sticks into bicycle spokes as a kid? 

[Button4life]

If Norris isn't elite because he didn't win a race yet, surely then we must agree that Maldonado IS an elite driver...

Gasly and Ocon must be elite as well. The arguments against Norris I've read in this thread are mind boggling. He can't be elite because Sainz beat him. He can't be elite because he didn't win a race while Ricciardo did. He can't be elite because Piastri has been running close to him. He can't be elite because he is a pay driver. I've rarely seen as much mental gymnastics as in this thread.

[goldenboy]

I'd like to start a petition to the mods to ban the word "elite" and get the devs to do a search and replace on every single instance of it being in the forum and changed to... something less lame and wanky 

[ForzaFormula]

Gasly and Ocon must be elite as well. The arguments against Norris I've read in this thread are mind boggling. He can't be elite because Sainz beat him. He can't be elite because he didn't win a race while Ricciardo did. He can't be elite because Piastri has been running close to him. He can't be elite because he is a pay driver. I've rarely seen as much mental gymnastics as in this thread.

He won't be elite untill he proves it by winning basically.

[PayasYouRace]

Did you happen to enjoy throwing sticks into bicycle spokes as a kid? 

Facts can hurt, huh?

[Button4life]

He won't be elite untill he proves it by winning basically.

Good to know results are more important than performances when the quality of a drivers gets determined. I see many similarities between Kubica before his incident and Norris. Kubica was rated as high as Hamilton back in 2010. He was regularly classed in the same tier as Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Kubica only won one race in his career and I doubt he wouldn’t be rated as high if he didn’t win a race. So why does Norris need to win a race to prove he’s a top quality driver?

[Bliman]

If Norris isn't elite because he didn't win a race yet, surely then we must agree that Maldonado IS an elite driver...

maybe winning is not the only criteria. Imo you can be elite without winning too.

Edited by Bliman, 28 July 2023 - 17:45.

[ForzaFormula]

Good to know results are more important than performances when the quality of a drivers gets determined. I see many similarities between Kubica before his incident and Norris. Kubica was rated as high as Hamilton back in 2010. He was regularly classed in the same tier as Vettel, Hamilton and Alonso. Kubica only won one race in his career and I doubt he wouldn’t be rated as high if he didn’t win a race. So why does Norris need to win a race to prove he’s a top quality driver?

Think you are overhyping Norris a bit to much before he has proved anything yet, he beat a washed out Daniel and got beat by Sainz. He still has it all to prove. We are not saying he is not a top quality driver but adding an "Elite" titles is another story, it's for those who can prove they are at that level...(Hamilton, Alonso & Max are the only true elites on the field who have proven it right now...)

Kubica was another case, rated highly but never actually proven to be elite. Only potentially.  Quick Nick while not as fast he was consistent, actually corrected through reliability and luck this is how Kubica vs Quick nick looked. 

 

1. Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2006) - 2-3

2. Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2007) - 6-9

3. Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2008) - 12-6

4. Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2009) - 8-8
   
    

[flyboym3]

Another mistake of norris and damaged his floor. He is not ready to mount a long tiring wdc campaign. Him and leclerc they are just too inconsistent.

Edited by flyboym3, 28 July 2023 - 19:52.

[Astandahl]

Another mistake of norris and damaged his floor. He is not ready to mount a long tiring wdc campaign.

Rip. Another fallen warrior. No one will be able to mount a tiring WDC campaign

 

 

 

If someone needs some data for Norris and Sainz quali /race performance i found this one for the 2020 season. (Should be added that Sainz was using modified bodywork to deal with a PU issue in the first part of the year). I don't know if this is real or something that Sainz PR team made up during the season)

Edited by Astandahl, 28 July 2023 - 20:44.

[flyboym3]

Rip. Another fallen warrior. No one will be able to mount a tiring WDC campaign

He may still develop and be able to but atm he is not ready.

[Astandahl]

He may still develop and be able to but atm he is not ready.

Before anyone can make such claim, we need to see him with a competitive car and the team for an entire season.

 

Unfortunately, only Mercedes and RB have been able to provide that to their drivers over the last 10 seasons.

 

 

Also the image i posted, in Norris case, actually corroborates what i've always thought. In current Formula 1 the base raw speed of the drivers doesn't change much during their career (outside some outliers). They improve in how they setup the car, race craft and especially tyre management.

 

In 2019 Norris and Sainz were pretty much equal in quali, while Sainz had a significant gap in race pace.

In 2020 Norris and Sainz were again pretty much equal in quali, but Norris made a massive jump in race and almost matched Sainz over the entire season.

Edited by Astandahl, 28 July 2023 - 20:24.

[milestone 11]

I'd like to start a petition to the mods to ban the word "elite" and get the devs to do a search and replace on every single instance of it being in the forum and changed to... something less lame and wanky 

If you include insane, I'll sign.

[RThorn]

In the nineties lots of people considered Jean Alesi elite driver, we all know what Alesi achieved in his career. Nothing. Same thing still can happen to Norris. He is still without any notable achievement.

[messy]

Think you are overhyping Norris a bit to much before he has proved anything yet, he beat a washed out Daniel and got beat by Sainz. He still has it all to prove. We are not saying he is not a top quality driver but adding an "Elite" titles is another story, it's for those who can prove they are at that level...(Hamilton, Alonso & Max are the only true elites on the field who have proven it right now...)
Kubica was another case, rated highly but never actually proven to be elite. Only potentially. Quick Nick while not as fast he was consistent, actually corrected through reliability and luck this is how Kubica vs Quick nick looked.

• Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2006) - 2-3
• Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2007) - 6-9
• Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2008) - 12-6
• Kubica Vs Heidfeld (2009) - 8-8

Must say I do agree with this one - people trot out the Hamilton vs Button stats (where Jenson outscored Lewis 2010-2012) and it's deceptive because Lewis did have clear edge on outright speed throughout their time as team-mates, that wasn't always the case with Heidfeld and Kubica. In 2007 it was clearly Heidfeld with a slight edge, in 2008 it was clearly Robert but in 2009 it actually kinda switched around again and although Kubica had the higher peaks, Heidfeld actually was right with him again. Had the Malaysian GP where Nick finished second been worth full points the gap between them on points would have been bigger too. Heidfeld was severely underappreciated and deserved much more credit.

Kubica was utterly brilliant in both 2008 and 2010, though. I think he earned his hype in the end.

Edited by messy, 28 July 2023 - 20:38.

[uzsjgb]

Piastri gets praised a lot for some reason. I do think he's doing good job, but nothing out of the extraodinary. The only time Piastri has beaten Norris in qualifying was when Norris had damage. The qualifying battle is 10-2 in favour of Norris. Piastri has only beaten Norris once in a race (Saudi Arabia) where Norris didn't have a penalty or incident. The race battle is 8-3 in favour of Norris. 7-1 if you only count the races without penalties, incidents and retirements. In the points standings, Norris is 60-27 ahead. If Piastri really is doing as good as this forum is trying to make out to be. How good must Norris then be? Easily elite right...

 

This is all a circular argument. If Piastri is just an ordinary driver then constantly being so close to Norris would mean that Norris is also an ordinary driver. One would expect an "elite" driver with a few seasons experience to comprehensively beat a rookie. 

 

P.S. Norris is only 60-27 ahead of Piastri, that is a little more than double the points. Hülkenberg is 9-2 ahead of Magnussen, which is more than 4 times the points. This clearly show how much better Hülkenberg must be than Norris. And Magnussen isn't even a rookie.

[Button4life]

This is all a circular argument. If Piastri is just an ordinary driver then constantly being so close to Norris would mean that Norris is also an ordinary driver. One would expect an "elite" driver with a few seasons experience to comprehensively beat a rookie. 

 

P.S. Norris is only 60-27 ahead of Piastri, that is a little more than double the points. Hülkenberg is 9-2 ahead of Magnussen, which is more than 4 times the points. This clearly show how much better Hülkenberg must be than Norris. And Magnussen isn't even a rookie.

i find it interesting you read my post but yet make the conclusion Piastri is close to Norris. The stats show Norris is convincingly beating Piastri.

[MikeTekRacing]

i find it interesting you read my post but yet make the conclusion Piastri is close to Norris. The stats show Norris is convincingly beating Piastri.

as he should do with a complete rookie.

However, in Silverstone, Hungary and now here - Piastri is close

[RThorn]

as he should do with a complete rookie.

However, in Silverstone, Hungary and now here - Piastri is close

Maybe Piastri is even more than elite, maybe he is savant

[Button4life]

as he should do with a complete rookie.

However, in Silverstone, Hungary and now here - Piastri is close

Silverstone and Hungrary have't been any different of the other races. Piastri has been a few tenths, sometimes hundreds behind Norris the whole season. Only difference is in a midfield car, a 2 tenths gap is the difference between qualifying in the top 10 or qualifying 13th. Now the car is decent 2 tenths is one position difference. That's the sole meaning Piastri looks closer the last 2 races. What I find impressive about Norris is even though Piastri is close, Norris got him always covered. The only times Piastri beat Norris is when Norris damages his car, gets a penalty or is involved in an incident.

[MikeTekRacing]

Silverstone and Hungrary have't been any different of the other races. Piastri has been a few tenths, sometimes hundreds behind Norris the whole season. Only difference is in a midfield car, a 2 tenths gap is the difference between qualifying in the top 10 or qualifying 13th. Now the car is decent 2 tenths is one position difference. That's the sole meaning Piastri looks closer the last 2 races. What I find impressive about Norris is even though Piastri is close, Norris got him always covered. The only times Piastri beat Norris is when Norris damages his car, gets a penalty or is involved in an incident.

within a few tenths is good for a complete rookie against what Norris seems/his fans claim he is.

 

The damage thing goes both ways - Piastri picked up damage in Hungary too and he lost the position to Noris through an unfortunate McLaren call (understandable for the team, but sh!tty for him)

[ForzaFormula]

within a few tenths is good for a complete rookie against what Norris seems/his fans claim he is.

The damage thing goes both ways - Piastri picked up damage in Hungary too and he lost the position to Noris through an unfortunate McLaren call (understandable for the team, but sh!tty for him)

Not just a rookie he was out of racing for a full year.

Norris made the mistake for.damage that's on him.

[MikeTekRacing]

I don't think this is a situation where any of them loses - they actually show they are very good drivers - one already more seasoned and the other one performing quite well.

It's good news for Mclaren

[Button4life]

within a few tenths is good for a complete rookie against what Norris seems/his fans claim he is.

 

The damage thing goes both ways - Piastri picked up damage in Hungary too and he lost the position to Noris through an unfortunate McLaren call (understandable for the team, but sh!tty for him)

Piastri is doing a good job, but it's a bit underwhelming compared to Norris, Russell and Leclerc rookie season. Norris beat Sainz 10-9 in the qualifying battle and beat Sainz in his first qualifying session. Leclerc had a few special qualifying sessions and races where he put the car where it had no right to be. Russell multiple times showed amazing speed in qualifying earning him the 'mr.saturday' nickname. I'm missing the raw speed and special drives of Piastri. So far Piastri looks more like a Button/Rosberg and Lando, Russell and Leclerc more like a Vettel.

 

Today during Q2 was the first time I thought 'this Piastri kid is rapid.' Unfortunately Q3 wasn't as good for him.

Edited by Button4life, 28 July 2023 - 21:45.

[jacdaniel]

When a driver is truly elite it is pretty obvious.

You could see it in Verstappen straight away. Winning his first race for Red Bull at just 18. While he was very raw, you could see the sheer speed and potential that he had. You could see how hungry he was to fight hard on the track also.

I don't see that with Norris. I see a really nice guy and a solid driver. But I don't see any signs of brilliance.

[romaincrouton]

It all remains to be seen and maybe it’s a little of the British effect…. At Silverstone this year I was surprised how many Norris supporters were about. He’s definitely the fan favourite now.

He seems like a nice guy and he definitely has pace…. But unfortunately for him he’s in the Verstappen era, he’s a couple of years younger but he’s just not on that level of someone who is going to write the history of this sport.

Norris really needs to find his way into a dominant car/team if he’s to up his stock…. Being almost as fast as Carlos Sainz as a rookie is his biggest achievement in the sport so far…. Where as Hamilton went toe to toe with the world champion in his rookie season…. Virtually every F1 driver is ‘elite’ but only a handful are absolute naturals…. I don’t see that in Norris.

[AusSpeed]

Because Ricciardo won, we can only have one winner and on that day he had the car to make it happen, the guy in the same car who had beat Ricciardo all season and usually outqualified him couldn't deliver on the only day McLaren were in with a chance of winning. That's what makes the difference, when the opportunity was there Ricciardo made it count, that hasn't changed to this day which is why I don't think Norris can be classed as elite yet.

💯 Thats what makes a driver elite. Infact if you guys go through Riccardo's,8 wins you win see rarely did he win in the best car on the day. His 3wins in 2014 were all because Merc tripped over themselves and he took advantage of it.

Stand outs though are China and Monaco 2018. Elite drives. And too me until Lando does that, he can't be elite. The guys quick no doubt, but a rookie ( though the best since verstappen and Hamilton ) is right with him in his only 12th race..

[MikeTekRacing]

he did it in Russia, to be fair. The call not to pit was made with data from Mclaren that the rain will NOT come. 

[PayasYouRace]

Seems this thread has run its course. If the idea is to compare the fortunes of the McLaren drivers, use the team thread.

 

https://forums.autos...23-team-thread/

 

We should really have nipped this in the bud a long time ago, as driver threads are not allowed and “how good is driver x?” has never ended well.