40 replies to this topic

[Rumblestrip]

I didn't see a topic for this and thought it was worth discussion after the Vettel/Alonso incident...

 

1. We have a gentleman's agreement that drivers don't jump the queue.

 

2. Masi says " During any practice session, any driver intending to create a gap in front of him in order to get a clear lap should not attempt to do this between the entry to Turn 9 through to the exit of Turn 10. Any driver seen to have done this will be reported to the stewards as being in breach of Article 27.4 of the Sporting Regulations."

 

So...as a driver coming round to start a fast lap, if you see slow cars in front what do you do? What should Vettel have done?

 

 

[PayasYouRace]

To quote myself from the race build up thread.

 

It's probably because the FIA worked themselves into a corner with this one. They created a situation where Vettel did exactly what was instructed by race control at that section of track, which was to drive fast and not slow down. Under normal circumstances it would be an automatic penalty, but under normal circumstances Seb would have slowed and let Alonso through. As it is, he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't. I don't know what penalty was planned for slowing between 9 and 10.

 

I think Vettel did the right thing by obeying race control's instructions.

 

On a wider note, this gentlemen's agreement seems to only apply to the drivers when it suits them. Everyone from Hamilton to Mazepin has broken it and overtaken drivers slowing to make a space for themselves.

 

The obvious solution is for the teams to stop acting line journalists and stop sticking together in case they miss something, and actually look for some clear space on the track.

[Rumblestrip]

 

 

The obvious solution is for the teams to stop acting line journalists and stop sticking together in case they miss something, and actually look for some clear space on the track.

 

You'd think more teams would try to run out of sync (like Perez did today?). I know they're going to miss out on a tow, but a clear track ahead seems preferable to traffic/yellow flags.

[uzsjgb]

I didn't see a topic for this and thought it was worth discussion after the Vettel/Alonso incident...

 

1. We have a gentleman's agreement that drivers don't jump the queue.

 

Vettel only got into trouble because quite a few drivers passed him and then slowed down right in front of him. Last week Hamilton did the same thing at the same spot. When a whole bunch of drivers leave the pits at the same time I always see a lot of jostling for position going on.

 

I would say there is no gentleman's agreement.

[Rinehart]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Vettel's penalty, what I really object to is a driver ruining a competitors qualifying but getting to complete their own qualifying and only then having their grid penalty applied. The penalty should be that they are DSQ from that session, so they start from 20th, 15th or 10th, depending on if the offence happens in Q1, Q2 or Q3. That would also guarantee they start behind the person they blocked, which seems fair to me. 

[Gambelli]

I've believed since the Italy fiasco that a minimum time should be set from pit exit to start finish line on warmup laps and again a minimum lap time for any other lap in qualy as well as a minimum time from start/finish to pits.  And make it tough, so you have, at most, 7 seconds off the fastest time, so you can't just sit and queue, then the queuing can be done in the pit lane exit instead of on the track.  If you don't make it to the finish line then... well next time go out earlier and learn a lesson.

 

Does it mean some cars will be marginal on tyres for the whole lap doing a warmup at that speed?  Oh well, they all have the same tyres....

[BRG]

They are grown-ups.  If they cannot sort themselves out, too bad. I don't want to see any nanny-state FIA rules.  If all these super professional hyper-budget teams and drivers trip over each others feet, then so be it.  It gives me a good laugh.

[chrcol]

first quali I watched for a while, and it seems so amateurish, why do they keep going out at the same time, please dont say the track is at its best, its worth what maybe one or two tenths unless its drying out from wet weather or something, but doing a lap on empty track without having to worry about cars in the way is surely worth more.

 

solution disallow car leaving garage if X amount on track or have the fia determine when a driver goes out to do his time.

Edited by chrcol, 05 July 2021 - 15:13.

[Oho]

first quali I watched for a while, and it seems so amateurish, why do they keep going out at the same time, please dont say the track is at its best, its worth what maybe one or two tenths unless its drying out from wet weather or something, but doing a lap on empty track without having to worry about cars in the way is surely worth more.

 

solution disallow car leaving garage if X amount on track or have the fia determine when a driver goes out to do his time.

Yeah with the tires made of semi hard cream cheese such that they seem to require meticulous preparation for the single lap lest they be burned at end or too cold at the start, one would think the advantage of preparing your tires without interference  and clear road to run your lap would be a priority, but no, tow down the start finish straight is more beneficial even if it implies compromised aerodynamics for the entirety of the lap.

Edited by Oho, 05 July 2021 - 19:44.

[FullOppositeLock]

The tow they all seek is beneficial, that’s the problem. We only really see this nonsense on tracks where following a car with a x second gap pays off.

[KWSN - DSM]

Allow the drivers to drive how they want to, slow or fast but no weaving, if you come up to a slower overtake on left or right, you know they will not weave. Forget about the impeding penalties completely.

 

If weaving the driver is made to start form the pitlane.

 

It will sort itself out real fast.

[KWSN - DSM]

The tow they all seek is beneficial, that’s the problem. We only really see this nonsense on tracks where following a car with a x second gap pays off.

 

Funny how you want to follow during qualifying for the benefits, and come race time you loses time following a car.

[Red5ive]

The only way to stop it is to go back to single timed runs - which most people hated.

[KWSN - DSM]

The only way to stop it is to go back to single timed runs - which most people hated.

 

I thought they were great, same way we qualified for Kart races way back in the 70ies, a warmup lap, a flying lap and you are done.

[chrcol]

I thought they were great, same way we qualified for Kart races way back in the 70ies, a warmup lap, a flying lap and you are done.

 

 think it would be better as well.

 

You go for it, knowing if you mess up thats it, so risk takers might be awarded or penalised, would be awesome.

[Bleu]

I've believed since the Italy fiasco that a minimum time should be set from pit exit to start finish line on warmup laps and again a minimum lap time for any other lap in qualy as well as a minimum time from start/finish to pits.  And make it tough, so you have, at most, 7 seconds off the fastest time, so you can't just sit and queue, then the queuing can be done in the pit lane exit instead of on the track.  If you don't make it to the finish line then... well next time go out earlier and learn a lesson.

 

Does it mean some cars will be marginal on tyres for the whole lap doing a warmup at that speed?  Oh well, they all have the same tyres....

 

 

There is a maximum lap time for pre-race reconnaissance laps (from safety car line to other) which could be useful for other instances. It was 1.10 in Austria compared to 49,5 seconds Verstappen used in his pole lap.

[solochamp07]

At many tracks they could just add a sort of bus stop outer loop for cars to stage for qualy laps safely, right out of the path of hot lappers. Can’t do that everywhere obviously but would be easy peasy at RB ring.

[FortiFord]

Funny how you want to follow during qualifying for the benefits, and come race time you loses time following a car.

 

Yes, i do think the tow is overplayed. At most tracks the time lost in dirty air will not be compensated for by any tow. Only tracks like Monza and possibly Spa are an exception. 

[FullOppositeLock]

Yes, i do think the tow is overplayed. At most tracks the time lost in dirty air will not be compensated for by any tow. Only tracks like Monza and possibly Spa are an exception. 

Red Bull stated the tow was worth up to one and a half tenth in Austria. It has three massive straights so it doesn't sound that far fetched to me and why else did we see all these cars queuing and trying to depart approx. 4s apart from one another. Regarding KWSN-DSM's comment, it's pretty evident that to be in a car's tow can be beneficial over the course of one qualifying lap whereas in a race stint the drawback of tires wearing more evidently makes it less desirable.

[ARTGP]

Whatever the rights and wrongs of Vettel's penalty, what I really object to is a driver ruining a competitors qualifying but getting to complete their own qualifying and only then having their grid penalty applied. The penalty should be that they are DSQ from that session, so they start from 20th, 15th or 10th, depending on if the offence happens in Q1, Q2 or Q3. That would also guarantee they start behind the person they blocked, which seems fair to me. 

 

This is a really good idea.  We'd stop seeing nonsense on the track very quickly. The teams themselves would now see a financial incentive to investing in better technology to detect and alert their drivers automatically to hot laps around them, without requiring a human to do it. 

 

I've wondered if F1 should invest in a "beacon" system.  When driver is on hot lap, they "turn on the beacon" . Now the other cars around them get a warning sign in the cockpit when a "hot lap" is within 3 or 4 seconds of them.  The warning doesn't come on if said driver is also on a hot lap.  

Edited by ARTGP, 05 July 2021 - 17:46.

[djparky]

The F3 drivers somehow manage this ( and there are 30 of them)..as do Indy Car drivers....this isnt new...its happened on and off for 40 years depending on the tyres. The "best drivers in the world" should be able to cope without nanny state intervention

[A.Fant]

The F3 drivers somehow manage this ( and there are 30 of them)..as do Indy Car drivers....this isnt new...its happened on and off for 40 years depending on the tyres. The "best drivers in the world" should be able to cope without nanny state intervention

I recall a lot of chaos and impediment in the F3 qualifying session over the weekend.

In this case I think it has everything to do with the track length rather than chasing a tow. The F3 cars wouldn't have had an issue if there were 20 of them as they are slower, but with 30 of them the same problem appeared.

[Dmitriy_Guller]

They are grown-ups.  If they cannot sort themselves out, too bad. I don't want to see any nanny-state FIA rules.  If all these super professional hyper-budget teams and drivers trip over each others feet, then so be it.  It gives me a good laugh.

This is almost always a hopelessly bad argument when you're discussing sporting events.  The more complete description of the situation is that they are grown-ups competing with each other and trying to get every edge.  In such a situation, the collective result of individually optimal actions can be collectively far less than optimal, hence the need for rules and consistent enforcement.

[ARTGP]

The F3 drivers somehow manage this ( and there are 30 of them)..as do Indy Car drivers....this isnt new...its happened on and off for 40 years depending on the tyres. The "best drivers in the world" should be able to cope without nanny state intervention

 

Yet here we are, in need of a nanny state.

[as65p]

I didn't see a topic for this and thought it was worth discussion after the Vettel/Alonso incident...

 

1. We have a gentleman's agreement that drivers don't jump the queue.

 

2. Masi says " During any practice session, any driver intending to create a gap in front of him in order to get a clear lap should not attempt to do this between the entry to Turn 9 through to the exit of Turn 10. Any driver seen to have done this will be reported to the stewards as being in breach of Article 27.4 of the Sporting Regulations."

 

So...as a driver coming round to start a fast lap, if you see slow cars in front what do you do? What should Vettel have done?

I said in the other thread, I think it's worth a try to introduce mandatory gaps between cars leaving the pits in qualifying sessions. Maybe start with a 5 to 10 sec gap and see what it does. Sure the car behind could still make up those 5 secs if they look for a tow, but it will at least not be an inevitable queue of cars as it is now. It would force some variation, and maybe that would already be enough to minimize the problem.

[Clatter]

I didn't see a topic for this and thought it was worth discussion after the Vettel/Alonso incident...

 

1. We have a gentleman's agreement that drivers don't jump the queue.

 

2. Masi says " During any practice session, any driver intending to create a gap in front of him in order to get a clear lap should not attempt to do this between the entry to Turn 9 through to the exit of Turn 10. Any driver seen to have done this will be reported to the stewards as being in breach of Article 27.4 of the Sporting Regulations."

 

So...as a driver coming round to start a fast lap, if you see slow cars in front what do you do? What should Vettel have done?

 

Gentlemen's agreement is not something that is in the rules, so just get on and do your own thing. There is no reason why someone should compromise their own session because of someone playing silly buggers ahead of them. Maybe we wouldn't then get the queueing if they all knew someone would blow by and hinder them.

[ARTGP]

Gentlemen's agreement is not something that is in the rules, so just get on and do your own thing. There is no reason why someone should compromise their own session because of someone playing silly buggers ahead of them. Maybe we wouldn't then get the queueing if they all knew someone would blow by and hinder them.

I believe the same thing. It would be a race to the line, not a lollygag, if teams knew they were under threat of being overtaken. Once they feel entitled to a gap, they lollygag. Remove the entitlement by dropping the gentleman’s agreement.

Pirelli could also stand to change the tires, so drivers don’t need to crawl on the warmup lap to get optimum preparation.

Edited by ARTGP, 05 July 2021 - 20:25.

[as65p]

Pirelli could also stand to change the tires, so drivers don’t need to crawl on the warmup lap to get optimum preparation.

You're not being serious? I genuinely believe Pirelli don't know how to achieve that, at least not without messing up other vital characteristics of the tyres.

 

The fickle preparation I'm sure is annoying for everyone involved, and it doesn't look good either, marketing-wise. If they knew how to get rid of it, they'd have done it already.

Edited by as65p, 05 July 2021 - 21:08.

[ARTGP]

You're not being serious? I genuinely believe Pirelli don't know how to achieve that, at least not without messing up other vital characteristics of the tyres.

The fickle preparation I'm sure is annoying for everyone involved, and it doesn't look good either, marketing-wise. If they knew how to get rid of it, they'd have done it already.

I was being serious, but the cynic in me says don’t let Pirelli mess things up anymore than they already have.

[PlatenGlass]

This has been mentioned before but I'll say it again anyway. Regardless of messing up people's laps etc., drivers stopping or virtually stopping on their outlap is no less dangerous than stuff that brings out the safety car in a race. Probably more so because they're stopped on the actual track.

 

Maybe if they red flagged sessions when a driver slows down too much on the track, it would stop this behaviour!

[ARTGP]

This has been mentioned before but I'll say it again anyway. Regardless of messing up people's laps etc., drivers stopping or virtually stopping on their outlap is no less dangerous than stuff that brings out the safety car in a race. Probably more so because they're stopped on the actual track.

Maybe if they red flagged sessions when a driver slows down too much on the track, it would stop this behaviour!

. Why bother with Red flag and ruin the laps of others. Just DSQ them. The more draconian, the quicker the bad habits cease.

Edited by ARTGP, 06 July 2021 - 02:25.

[Rediscoveryx]

The only way to stop it is to go back to single timed runs - which most people hated.

 

Problem is - people hated it for the wrong reasons. Qualifying systems should be judged on how they contribute to the race weekend as a whole, not on how entertaining they are to watch in isolation (which was the main issue with one-lap qualifying). Well well, there are other threads for that discussion so I'll leave it there...

 

Assuming no changes to the qualifying system as such; a stop-gap solution could be to queue drivers at pit exit and release them with five second intervals - mandating a minimum out lap time that's quite close to full racing speed. That should in theory guarantee space between drivers and much lower speed differential between drivers on flying laps and drivers on out laps. Perhaps there would be other issues with that (such as reliability issues when queueing for 50 seconds at pit exit), but it would be a plausible solution to the current situation. 

[Stephane]

Just don't delete times after q1 q2

[CoolBreeze]

Hardly any gentlemen's agreement the 30 or so years. I personally think the pit entry in Austria is just dangerous. 

[Rediscoveryx]

I said in the other thread, I think it's worth a try to introduce mandatory gaps between cars leaving the pits in qualifying sessions. Maybe start with a 5 to 10 sec gap and see what it does. Sure the car behind could still make up those 5 secs if they look for a tow, but it will at least not be an inevitable queue of cars as it is now. It would force some variation, and maybe that would already be enough to minimize the problem.

 

Combine this with a minimum delta that's pretty close to actual racing speed (I'm thinking like two-three seconds adrift per sector) and you'll more or less get rid of this issue.

[TomNokoe]

At short tracks, the mandatory gap idea wouldn't work. If you sent 20 cars out in Q1 at the Red Bull Ring and positioned them equidistant from one and other, they would be separated by roughly 3.2s.

Now try and coordinate that magic 3.2s gap around a full outlap and flying lap, for 20 cars of differing speeds, simultaneously. It wouldn't work.

Sure, once you get into Q2 and Q3, especially at longer tracks, it would be easier, but it's absolutely not worth the trouble imo.

The only solution I can see is somehow discouraging the teams to go out together.

I agree with Stephane - if you combine Q1+Q2 into a much longer session, say 40 minutes, there's far less jeopardy and the hectic final runs would be avoided. Whereas today, because the times are deleted every 15 minutes, suddenly you have to maximise every single run you do. There's too much jeopardy, and that's why everyone is so aggressive regarding track position and slipstream.

40 minutes of open track to decide grid positions 9-20, followed by a single lap shootout to decide 1-8, ran in reverse order of the first session (8-1).

[Rediscoveryx]

At short tracks, the mandatory gap idea wouldn't work. If you sent 20 cars out in Q1 at the Red Bull Ring and positioned them equidistant from one and other, they would be separated by roughly 3.2s.

Now try and coordinate that magic 3.2s gap around a full outlap and flying lap, for 20 cars of differing speeds, simultaneously. It wouldn't work.

Sure, once you get into Q2 and Q3, especially at longer tracks, it would be easier, but it's absolutely not worth the trouble imo.

The only solution I can see is somehow discouraging the teams to go out together.

I agree with Stephane - if you combine Q1+Q2 into a much longer session, say 40 minutes, there's far less jeopardy and the hectic final runs would be avoided. Whereas today, because the times are deleted every 15 minutes, suddenly you have to maximise every single run you do. There's too much jeopardy, and that's why everyone is so aggressive regarding track position and slipstream.

40 minutes of open track to decide grid positions 9-20, followed by a single lap shootout to decide 1-8, ran in reverse order of the first session (8-1).

 

If you just mandate a minimum delta that's reasonably fast you'd get rid of the problem of "multiple cars at differential speed".

 

The longer session approach would just lead to nothing happening during the first 25 minutes of each segment. No team will send their drivers out for four runs in Q1, and everyone will still try to wait until the final moments to bang in a time when the track is at its best. It will be a session where nothing happens for the first 15 minutes, each team does one banker lap with 10-15 minutes remaining and then the same frantic final moment dash that we have today.

 

The only practical ways that I can see how to avoid this issue is to either use a one-lap approach, or to send out cars at intervals (combined with mandated minimum speeds on out laps). Both of these approaches would be preferable to the current farcical (and frankly dangerous) situation.

 

Well, then there's also reverse-grid qualifying races in which this problem also will be avoided...

 

Edit; by the way, a one-lap system would be much more rewarding (from a weekend perspective) if the entire grid was set that way. I.e; if Verstappen screws up he starts 20th rather than 8th.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 06 July 2021 - 09:53.

[FullOppositeLock]

The mandated minimum delta wouldn't work either. Drivers on an outlap where other cars are on a flyer usually have to manoeuvre carefully avoiding to be cruising on the racing line, etc. How would that work if you were penalised for not being within 2-3 seconds of your optimal sector time? Sorry Mr Masi, I had no choice but to be at the apex of the corner ruining that other drivers lap because otherwise I wouldn't have completed the sector in time.

 

The issue only really manifests itself when drivers queue up for a run at the closing seconds of a qualifying session and on tracks where a tow is beneficial. Therefore I would stipulate that if anybody's flying lap gets ruined by cars trundling around the final corner complex looking for a tow, all the cars who were queuing up take a 3 place grid drop instead of only the poor bugger who happened to be last in the queue. I think if there was this wider threat of a penalty everybody would soon wise up and find a suitable gap for themselves without spending half a minute almost stationary just before the final corner in search of the perfect tow.

[Rediscoveryx]

The mandated minimum delta wouldn't work either. Drivers on an outlap where other cars are on a flyer usually have to manoeuvre carefully avoiding to be cruising on the racing line, etc. How would that work if you were penalised for not being within 2-3 seconds of your optimal sector time? Sorry Mr Masi, I had no choice but to be at the apex of the corner ruining that other drivers lap because otherwise I wouldn't have completed the sector in time.

 

The issue only really manifests itself when drivers queue up for a run at the closing seconds of a qualifying session and on tracks where a tow is beneficial. Therefore I would stipulate that if anybody's flying lap gets ruined by cars trundling around the final corner complex looking for a tow, all the cars who were queuing up take a 3 place grid drop instead of only the poor bugger who happened to be last in the queue. I think if there was this wider threat of a penalty everybody would soon wise up and find a suitable gap for themselves without spending half a minute almost stationary just before the final corner in search of the perfect tow.

 

It wouldn't be a perfect solution that would remove the issue completely, I'll grant you that - but surely it would reduce the frequency?

 

In effect; drivers would need to manage their out lap so that they could allow competitors through at earlier parts of the lap. Also, if cars are sent out in intervals rather than at will this would reduce the problem even more as you would have larger gaps between out lap cars, and thus (in theory) no queue at the final corner.

 

I'd expect some leniency from race control in special circumstances where it's obvious that the driver had no choice but to slow down in order not to mess up someone else's lap. Perhaps one could even imagine a "blue flag" type scenario, where drivers would be ordered by the stewards to keep out of the way of cars on flyers but not slow down otherwise.

[Red5ive]

Thing is though - teams actually wait until they all go out - its like a game of chicken.

 

If you listen to Lando;s team radio last weekend - during quali 2 they actually discuss the fact they have to change the number of laps they are going to do as "only 1 car went out then"  "so we need to wait"  and move from 2 laps to 1.

 

They get what they deserve.

Edited by Red5ive, 06 July 2021 - 13:40.

[BRG]

They get what they deserve.

Damn right.  Let's not reward their stupidity by making special rules for the terminally dumb.