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Should Sprint Race Winners be credited with Pole Statistic?


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Poll: Should Sprint Race Winners get the Pole Statistic? (168 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Sprint Race Winners get the Pole Statistic?

  1. Yes, they still start the main race from the Pole slot (42 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. No, it's a different challenge that will dilute "real" pole achievements and should be its own statistic (114 votes [67.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.86%

  3. Don't really care either way (12 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

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#1 shure

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 13:20

https://www.motorspo...-wrong/6630846/

 

Vettel has spoken out against the decision to award the sprint race winners with the pole statistic, saying that it should be a new category instead as it's a very different challenge.  Have to say I agree with him.  Thoughts?



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#2 PlatenGlass

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 13:50

It's a different challenge, but winning the sprint race gets you pole position for the main race and that's an objective fact. But as I said in another thread, you can keep all sorts of statistics, including winning the non-race qualifying session (or however it's best defined), and this could also count "poles" that were taken away due to post-qualifying penalties such as Schumacher at Monaco in 2012.

 

But we've also had in the past qualifying on race fuel and tyres which has arguably "messed it up" as well. Also, drivers are all in different cars!

 

But ultimately it's the statistics websites you need to be petitioning.



#3 Ruusperi

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 14:15

I think it should have its own column. A qualifying is supposed to be a time trial event, free of any racing. With the possibilities of poor start, collisions, surprising VSCs, penalties and tyre problems, the winner of the sprint "qualifying" hardly represents who's the fastest driver or team around the circuit. Even FP1 is a better candidate for pole statistics and the Sprint Race.



#4 Collombin

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 14:20

Voted yes, as the pole winning driver is still doing what is necessary to win pole, whatever the challenge is.

You should look beyond statistics anyway so am not too bothered about that. Pole statistics are already distorted if you think they should only go to the fastest qualifier.

#5 Hrco42

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 14:20

Pole position = starts first in the race (I will ignore the very small number of cases where this is not true due to penalties or other circumstances)

Whoever wins the sprint race, starts first in the race, therefore gets the pole position. Sure, it's a different kind of qualifying, but qualifying none then less. There already were different kinds of qualifying in the past and who knows what the future will bring. Maybe the pole position will be decided by coin toss. And the pole position statistic should cover any kind of qualifying



#6 Lights

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 14:44

The real problem, if it's true that the essence of this statistic supposedly is which driver was quickest over 1 hotlap, is that we've kept track of the wrong statistic to begin with.
We literally connect being quickest in qualifying with pole position, while what pole position really means is starting the GP in 1st position.
 
How one got there hasn't been consistent, as it hasn't always been the quickest car in qualifying due to for example penalties or qualifying on various loads of race fuel. 
Then e.g. Schumacher should have been accredited pole in Monaco 2012, and in the race fuel qualifying era we should've calculated which driver actually was quickest based on weight corrections, and so on.
But then you also have formats like single-lap qualifying which just were unfair to begin with due to track evolution and weather and aren't possible to 'fix' in hindsight.
 
Because we haven't always tracked this correctly it means the "pole position" stats are therefor anyway diluted, and I'd argue that it doesn't really matter anymore at this point.
Sure, keep track of sprint qualifying 'wins' as a separate statistic. I'm sure someone will do that anyway. Had the stats been spotless thus far then I might've cared more about it.


#7 ensign14

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:03

It's essentially a heat race to decide pole and get some interim points.  So if you're going all strict about it, then it's a pole position only. 

 

If we go back to the very first Grand Prix, the race was held over 2 days, and the cars started the second day in order of times from the first.  So if you finished the first day 10 minutes behind the leader, you started the second day 10 minutes after he started. 

 

In a sense this is the same thing, only without the time gap.  We do not credit Szisz with 2 wins, only the one. 

 

Also, the 1959 German Grand Prix, held over 2 heats and decided by aggregate times.  Tony Brooks crossed the line first at the end of both heats.  We credit him with one Grand Prix victory for the weekend, not 1 or 2 non-title wins.



#8 Marklar

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:05

Pole Position is whoever starts on Pole (which is not always the quickest man in quali, there have been occasions before), that F1 introduced a shitty system that doesnt reward the quickest driver/team is none of the statistics' issue, because once you are using asteriks for it you may as well stop having statistics ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



#9 Dhillon

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:12

I like this format as there is some Interest for all three days ( fri-sat-sun ).  Take postion on friday, defend your position on Saturday for Sunday's race.

 

If a driver messed up or has mechanical issue in quali, They'll have a chance to improve in the sprint race.



#10 ANF

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:14

Yes.
Should F1 have a qualifying race? No.

#11 Collombin

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:15

Also, the 1959 German Grand Prix, held over 2 heats and decided by aggregate times. Tony Brooks crossed the line first at the end of both heats. We credit him with one Grand Prix victory for the weekend, not 1 or 2 non-title wins.


And we credit him with pole even though Cliff Allison was faster.

#12 Collombin

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:17

Pole Position is whoever starts on Pole


Peter Collins started from pole in the 1956 French GP, and I'm not even sure we really know why even today. Wasn't credited with it, wasn't fastest in quali. Fangio must have wanted to swap places or cars.

#13 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:29

He who starts on Pole is the Pole Sitter, some may not like it, but that's is who the statistics should be counted, as they always have.



#14 Calum

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 15:33

If I had the power I would change it to “the fastest legal entry in qualifying” given the pole award.

That would be: Leclerc at Monaco, Schumacher at Monaco, Silverstone Friday today etc.

I’d have a 3rd statistic started to count Sprint Winners, to go with Pole and Grand Prix Winner.


I won’t lose sleep over it though.

#15 Anderis

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 16:12

It's pretty clear what "pole position" means, there's no reason to count things differently because of a new format just because some people misunderstood what it has always meant.

 

If you want a statistics that reflects who the fastest driver over one lap is, then make a new one. Qualifying session winner or something like that. It's not like we've never had instances that the fastest driver in Q didn't start from pole before.



#16 noikeee

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 16:14

I think I'm more with Vettel, the winner of qualifying will still technically start a race from the 1st position won't he? The tradition has been to equate "pole position" with "fastest man over a hotlap" (might not technically have strictly been the case for every single race in history but for the vast majority of them), so to me it feels very weird that we'll have a hotlap contest, but then credit "pole position" not to the guy who won that, but to the guy who wins a race.
 
Of course, this is a stupid problem that wouldn't occur if we wouldn't have a stupid race weekend format.

Edited by noikeee, 16 July 2021 - 16:15.


#17 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 16:39

How is this even up for debate?

 

Pole position is the guy who starts the Grand Prix from 1st position on the grid. Therefore the statistic goes to whoever does that, no matter what method was used to decide who it is.



#18 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 16:46

How is this even up for debate?

 

Pole position is the guy who starts the Grand Prix from 1st position on the grid. Therefore the statistic goes to whoever does that, no matter what method was used to decide who it is.

 

Exactly.



#19 SilverArrow31

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:01

Pole Position is whoever starts the Grand Prix in first, as we have learnt over the years by all the drivers who has lost a pole due to a grid penalty/disqualification later, as others have said all that's changed is the way they get there.

 

Edit: Hi Crofty.... you clearly just read this  :wave: :lol:


Edited by SilverArrow31, 16 July 2021 - 17:02.


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#20 ensign14

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:03

Of course, that still leaves the question...should the driver who starts from pole in the quali race also be credited with a pole? :drunk:



#21 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:24

Of course, that still leaves the question...should the driver who starts from pole in the quali race also be credited with a pole? :drunk:

We always had a name for it after the Friday session. We called it Provisional Pole.



#22 pacificquay

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:28

Anyone voting no in this poll needs to take a look at themselves, frankly 



#23 noikeee

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:43

How is this even up for debate?

Pole position is the guy who starts the Grand Prix from 1st position on the grid.


Not always strictly true. Leclerc was credited with pole position but didn't start the grand prix this year at Monaco. ;)

#24 noikeee

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:44

Anyone voting no in this poll needs to take a look at themselves, frankly


Ok, I'm in front of a mirror, what should I be looking at?

#25 JordanIreland

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 17:54

It’s called sprint qualifying?

Not sprint race?

#26 absinthedude

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 18:20

As much as I am against this change to the way the grid is decided, the person who wins the sprint race and (barring penalties/DQ) will start the race from the front is the pole sitter. There is no other reasonable definition. 

 

I detest this new format but I cannot see that it's even up for debate. Barring penalties or a DQ, the winner of the sprint race will line up at the front of the grid for the grand prix and is the pole sitter. 



#27 messy

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 18:26

As far as I’m concerned Hamilton just set pole position right there. What happens tomorrow and beyond isn’t qualifying.

#28 chhatra

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 19:09

F1 over complicating things again.

Pole is given to the fastest man over 1 lap, simple.

Why could they not have waited until 2022 with the new cars before trying this crap.

#29 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 19:12

F1 over complicating things again.

Pole is given to the fastest man over 1 lap, simple.

Why could they not have waited until 2022 with the new cars before trying this crap.

 

Pole is the guy who starts from position 1 on the starting grid. Equally simple and actually correct.



#30 Calum

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 19:56

Pole is the guy who starts from position 1 on the starting grid. Equally simple and actually correct.

 

Why did Leclerc get Monaco 2021 and his Grand Prix result is credited as DNS?

 

I'm overanalysing for sure, but still curious how they decided that.  :lol:



#31 JimmyClark

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:01

I'm not a Hamilton fan, but it really rankles with me that his performance today won't be rewarded with a statistical pole position.

Sprint qualifying is a different concept and therefore should have a separate statistic.

#32 milestone 11

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:03

https://www.motorspo...-wrong/6630846/
 
Vettel has spoken out against the decision to award the sprint race winners with the pole statistic, saying that it should be a new category instead as it's a very different challenge.  Have to say I agree with him.  Thoughts?

If we really must have this abomination, pole should always remain as the best qualifying time. This then has no unwanted effect on pole statistics.

#33 IrvTheSwerve

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:03

Yes.
Should F1 have a qualifying race? No.

This. P1 tomorrow is pole, it’s just a crappy way of doing it.



#34 Victor

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:05

This is a pointless discussion. The pole position is credited to the one who stands first in the grid, independdently of the way how it is defined. So, of course yes, and this is a useless thread.


Edited by Victor, 16 July 2021 - 20:22.


#35 NixxxoN

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:14

IMO the pole sitter of today (friday) should have been awarded the pole as it is a normal qualy session. Leave this experiment out of the statistics



#36 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:21

Why did Leclerc get Monaco 2021 and his Grand Prix result is credited as DNS?

 

I'm overanalysing for sure, but still curious how they decided that.  :lol:

He was the driver awarded pole position. He was a DNS, but it doesn’t take it away. Pole position was not awarded to the next driver. And the cars that made the start started from position 2 back.

 

This has always been the case. Once the he grid is set the first driver is on pole position. There are a number of cases where the pole position driver didn't get to start.



#37 PayasYouRace

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:22

If we really must have this abomination, pole should always remain as the best qualifying time. This then has no unwanted effect on pole statistics.

You mean pole should become the best qualifying time, which it technically never was.



#38 ANF

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:29

Why did Leclerc get Monaco 2021 and his Grand Prix result is credited as DNS?
 
I'm overanalysing for sure, but still curious how they decided that.  :lol:

I suspect it was because his car broke down on a reconnaissance lap, at which point the final starting grid had already been published.

The starting grid will be published no less than four (4) hours before the start of the formation lap. Any Competitor whose car(s) is (are) unable to start for any reason whatsoever (or who has good reason to believe that their car(s) will not be ready to start) must inform the stewards accordingly at the earliest opportunity and, in any event, no later than one hour and fifteen minutes before the start of the formation lap. If one or more cars are withdrawn the grid will be closed up accordingly. The final starting grid will be published one hour before the start of the formation lap.

#39 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:43

Of course, that still leaves the question...should the driver who starts from pole in the quali race also be credited with a pole? :drunk:

 

Maybe they should flip a coin?



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#40 KWSN - DSM

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 20:44

Not always strictly true. Leclerc was credited with pole position but didn't start the grand prix this year at Monaco.  ;)

 

Because they did not shuffle the grid, Leclerc won Pole and did not take his spot on the grid due tech issues.



#41 TheFish

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:11

I agree with Seb. Pole should go to fastest qualifier imo.

#42 Jerem

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:14

It doesn't really make much difference, after a 100km sprint race the winner is 9 out of 10 times going to be the guy who was quickest in qualifying.



#43 MikeTekRacing

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:31

 

The real problem, if it's true that the essence of this statistic supposedly is which driver was quickest over 1 hotlap, is that we've kept track of the wrong statistic to begin with.
 

 

That's not really true, as we've had pole for lap on race fuel (so not equal conditions) and also pole for sum of 2 laps for a while.



#44 noikeee

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:35

That's not really true, as we've had pole for lap on race fuel (so not equal conditions) and also pole for sum of 2 laps for a while.

 

It was still something fairly similar - arbitrarily handicapped hotlap, and sum of 2 hotlaps, is sort of similar to a low fuel hotlap. Now it'll be, winner of a race.



#45 as65p

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:41

That's not really true, as we've had pole for lap on race fuel (so not equal conditions)...

Of course it was still equal conditions in the context. Adding more or less fuel is just a setup choice like a myriad of other things. It's no different than for example chosing a setup that heats the tyres quickly for a qualifying lap but destroys them quicker in the race.

 

... and also pole for sum of 2 laps for a while.

 

When was that? Genuine question.



#46 P123

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:42

F1 has for quite a while made a thing of the 'Pole Lap', which is now on certain race weekends going to be something a bit different.  So there will be no celebrating a hot lap.  And the quali race will have a winner, but won't officially in terms of race win statistics.  But as pointed out we did have race fuel qualifying with various fuel levels for a number of seasons and also the single lap quali which was highly dependant on track conditions, so the statistic was already slightly muddied.



#47 milestone 11

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Posted 16 July 2021 - 21:59

You mean pole should become the best qualifying time, which it technically never was.

Yeah, it wasn't technically for Michael in 2012, but you and I both, know the absurdity of that.

Edited by milestone 11, 16 July 2021 - 21:59.


#48 CHIUNDA

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Posted 17 July 2021 - 04:23

It's essentially a heat race to decide pole and get some interim points. So if you're going all strict about it, then it's a pole position only.

If we go back to the very first Grand Prix, the race was held over 2 days, and the cars started the second day in order of times from the first. So if you finished the first day 10 minutes behind the leader, you started the second day 10 minutes after he started.

In a sense this is the same thing, only without the time gap. We do not credit Szisz with 2 wins, only the one.

Also, the 1959 German Grand Prix, held over 2 heats and decided by aggregate times. Tony Brooks crossed the line first at the end of both heats. We credit him with one Grand Prix victory for the weekend, not 1 or 2 non-title wins.


I am more aligned with the 2-day race thinking. Technically racing starts Saturday afternoon with the Sprint Race being the first part of Sunday's Race. As it's additional 100kms of racing distance, it earns some points for what it's worth, in this case 3pts for 1st, 2 for 2nd and 1 for 3rd.

Similar to having a standing start for a red flagged race, Sunday's race continues what started on Saturday in the order of the Sprint Race finish. Just like in the red flagged races, the pole position at this stage is of no statistical significance.

More points are earned on Sunday. Essentially not only has the race format changed, but the race distance has been extended and the points system adjusted accordingly.

From this perspective, pole sitter is the guy who wins qualifying on Friday and therefore like Vettel argues, should rightfully go into the record books.

And because the race format is technically over two days, there should be only one win at the end of the race on Sunday. A new category for Sprint Race winner is unnecessary.

#49 nookie

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Posted 17 July 2021 - 04:54

couldn't really vote as there's no option that reflects reality. when you qualify, you don't win pole, you just qualify first. equally, you can't win pole from a sprint race, either, just win the race. pole position is a position on the track where you start a race from. this has traditionally been what signifies pole position and has always been what's put down in the books. it has not changed, it's still the same as it has been since forever.



#50 nookie

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Posted 17 July 2021 - 05:04

Yes.
Should F1 have a qualifying race? No.

it's not a qualifying race, it a race. that it just so happens also determines how cars line on the day after doesn't alter that fact. qualifying implies that it's testing a drivers quality, just like the current qualifying does. it was like this a hundred years ago and it still is due to the 107% rule, which is only active during qualification, not in the sprint race.

 

the sprint race is a race like every other race, you line up on a grid, you perform a standing start, race other drivers for position, win or lose the race, get on a podium (although this one is token only) and get points for finishing position. its a race. this is exactly how gp2 worked and no-one called the sprint race a 'qualifying race' eventhough it also dictated the grid positions in the feature race the day after.