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Should Sprint Race Winners be credited with Pole Statistic?


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Poll: Should Sprint Race Winners get the Pole Statistic? (168 member(s) have cast votes)

Should Sprint Race Winners get the Pole Statistic?

  1. Yes, they still start the main race from the Pole slot (42 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  2. No, it's a different challenge that will dilute "real" pole achievements and should be its own statistic (114 votes [67.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 67.86%

  3. Don't really care either way (12 votes [7.14%])

    Percentage of vote: 7.14%

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#101 absinthedude

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 05:24

Statisticians are oddballs who are forever having arguments about what does and doesn't count in the various sports they're into.

 

Out of interest, how many of Lewis Hamilton's 100 pole position starts were not due to him setting the fastest lap in qualifying?

 

They were due to him "winning" the three part qualifying session, to be more precise he would have been fastest in Q3. The session that sets the top 10 grid spots for the grand prix.

 

I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how there's any kind of debate. One cannot simply randomly redefine what pole is. By whatever method was chosen, the "pole winner" is the person who qualifies to start first for the main event. 

 

In other words, part of the function of the sprint race is to decide pole position. 



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#102 Aaaarrgghh

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 06:23

Yes, they should. The concept of pole position is older than the qualifying system arranging the grid after each driver's quickest lap. In fact, it even predates motorsport. Even people who won the pole position via lottery in the olden days were credited with pole position. All pole position means is to be the driver that is allocated the first starting position for the race.

 

Now I personally prefer the conventional F1 qualifying system and firmly believe that the sprint races are equivalent to putting a band aid where the ship isn't leaking, but that's two whole other questions.


Edited by Aaaarrgghh, 18 October 2021 - 11:39.


#103 smitten

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 07:26

I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how there's any kind of debate. One cannot simply randomly redefine what pole is. By whatever method was chosen, the "pole winner" is the person who qualifies to start first for the main event. 

 

In other words, part of the function of the sprint race is to decide pole position. 

Absolutely. 

 

I think part of the trouble is we just don't yet have a good title to hang around the neck of the guy that qualifies in 'pole position' for the qualifying sprint race. 



#104 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 08:21

 

 

I honestly cannot even begin to fathom how there's any kind of debate. One cannot simply randomly redefine what pole is. By whatever method was chosen, the "pole winner" is the person who qualifies to start first for the main event. 

 

Well earlier in this thread, it was the person who actually did start first...

 

In any case, from my point of view, it's not about what should count as pole that's the issue here. It's about what is the more inteteresting statistic to keep. I don't really care if someone started from first on the grid because someone else had a gearbox penalty. In the past, winner of timed qualifying and pole were pretty much always the same, but now they're not. And winner of timed qualifying just happens to be more of a thing for me than who happened to start at the front.

 

So the conclusion is that statistics website should just start to keep a separate statistic on winner of timed qualifying and we should all just pay attention to that one, because it's the more interesting statistic. Pole would still be pole but it wouldn't be what we care about so much.

 

Edit - Of course there's no guarantee that with future changes there always will be a timed qualifying session.


Edited by PlatenGlass, 18 October 2021 - 08:22.


#105 smitten

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 08:54

So the conclusion is that statistics website should just start to keep a separate statistic on winner of timed qualifying and we should all just pay attention to that one, because it's the more interesting statistic. Pole would still be pole but it wouldn't be what we care about so much.

Do you mean the fastest time of the Q3 session, or the fastest time of the whole quali session,  Because if fastest lap in quali is the metric then it has to be the latter - and I don't think anybody actively records that presently.



#106 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 09:42

Do you mean the fastest time of the Q3 session, or the fastest time of the whole quali session, Because if fastest lap in quali is the metric then it has to be the latter - and I don't think anybody actively records that presently.

It's the winner of the whole session, so Q3.

#107 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 09:47

It's the winner of the whole session, so Q3.


Is that the “winner” of the session after penalties are applied? We don’t keep record of GP winners “on the road” without penalties, and there have been a few over the years.

#108 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:27

Is that the “winner” of the session after penalties are applied? We don’t keep record of GP winners “on the road” without penalties, and there have been a few over the years.

 

It depends how the penalty is applied. Grid penalties are generally outside the session, so don't really affect the winner of the session. This can be seen from the fact that even when a grid penalty is already known about, the winner of the session is interviewed as the winner. If someone is disqualified from the session or has their times deleted, then it wouldn't count. E.g.

 

Counts as winner of timed qualifying: Raikkonen at Monza 2005, Schumacher at Monaco in 2012, Bottas at Monza in 2021, Hamilton at Turkey in 2021

Doesn't count as winner of timed qualifying: Schumacher at Monaco in 2006, Hamilton at Barcelona in 2012

 

Hopefully the FIA's penalty system doesn't allow for grey areas.



#109 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:29

It depends how the penalty is applied. Grid penalties are generally outside the session, so don't really affect the winner of the session. This can be seen from the fact that even when a grid penalty is already known about, the winner of the session is interviewed as the winner. If someone is disqualified from the session or has their times deleted, then it wouldn't count. E.g.

Counts as winner of timed qualifying: Raikkonen at Monza 2005, Schumacher at Monaco in 2012, Bottas at Monza in 2021, Hamilton at Turkey in 2021
Doesn't count as winner of timed qualifying: Schumacher at Monaco in 2006, Hamilton at Barcelona in 2012

Hopefully the FIA's penalty system doesn't allow for grey areas.


Well I think that’s wrong, especially if the penalty is already known about.

But then I’m firmly in the camp that pole position is the starting position, and that’s the thing that has real meaning. It’s the person who started first, in contrast to the guy who finished first.

#110 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:39

Well I think that’s wrong, especially if the penalty is already known about.

But then I’m firmly in the camp that pole position is the starting position, and that’s the thing that has real meaning. It’s the person who started first, in contrast to the guy who finished first.

 

But then where do you stand on the Schumacher France 1996, Pironi Germany 1982 and Leclerc Monaco 2021 cases? They didn't start first.



#111 noikeee

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:46

Can we just open up a new statistic/retrospective award for the people that win the qualifying session (or posted the overall fastest time, in previous systems that ran across two days), and call that "The Fastest Man" or "Supersprint Winner" or something and this would be a decent compromise that makes everyone kinda happy? That would track the qualifying winners like we want, and we'd also keep the term "pole position" for the physical pole position for the grand prix like the pedants want.

Just send a ton of Pirelli tyres to Senna's family and get this done with.

#112 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:48

But then where do you stand on the Schumacher France 1996, Pironi Germany 1982 and Leclerc Monaco 2021 cases? They didn't start first.


There’s a point at which the grid is officially announced. At that point anyone failing to take the start is a DNS and their grid position stays empty.

Schumacher in France 1996 is an easy one. He took the green flag for the formation lap in pole position, but his engine failed on the way to the start. Hill started the race from second position on the grid.

Not sure of the circumstances of Pironi, but presumably the grid had been published at the time of his accident.

Similarly for Leclerc, the grid had been published and he as due to start from pole. His car failure made him a DNS, and his grid spot (pole position) remained empty.

None of these examples present any problems, because they fall into a clear procedure of what happens once the grid is published and a driver can’t take their position on the grid for whatever reason, right up to the last minute.

#113 as65p

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:56

Well I think that’s wrong, especially if the penalty is already known about.

But then I’m firmly in the camp that pole position is the starting position, and that’s the thing that has real meaning. It’s the person who started first, in contrast to the guy who finished first.

Well the problem is exactly that we now have a [artificially introduced] contrast between things which used to mean the same thing, and for no good reason.

 

Going by rare past exceptions is misleading anyway, IMO. Exceptions happen always to any rule and mean nothing, hence the old saying.



#114 Okyo

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 10:58

The same way as probably most of my generation fans think, pole is given to the driver that pushed the machinery and himself to the limit and did the least mistakes while doing so in a one lap shoot out format. Be it in a one stage or 3 stage format, be it after one try or multiple ones, it has to be a situation where, unlike during the race, everything is pushed to the limit. 

Considering the rules we have today (the saving that's going during the race), this distinction  seems even more important now. 

And yes, i know that less than a decade back we had cars qualifying with quite a bit of fuel on board and tires that could be pushed during the whole race, but to that i can simple say: lalalalalalalala i can't hear you lalalalalala  :smoking:


Edited by Okyo, 18 October 2021 - 11:01.


#115 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 11:03

Well I think that’s wrong, especially if the penalty is already known about.

But then I’m firmly in the camp that pole position is the starting position, and that’s the thing that has real meaning. It’s the person who started first, in contrast to the guy who finished first.

I suppose I'd say just keep both statistics and let people decide which they care about most.

#116 absinthedude

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 11:29

"pole position" is the 1st starting position for the grand prix race. The past method of deciding this has *usually* involved drivers competing to make one super fast lap each. But that is immaterial to the debate over what "pole position" is. However it is decided, by a qualifying session to determine fastest laps, a sprint race, picking names out of a hat, divination, random number generator.....it is the driver who is set to start the race from the front.

 

The fact that *very* occasionally something happens between the decision making session and the actual start of the race is immaterial too. 

 

With Schumacher, his car failed on the parade lap. He still was awarded "pole position" because he was fastest in qualifying. As for poor Pironi....in those days there were two "free for all" qualifying sessions, one on Friday and one on Saturday. The fastest laps over both sessions decided the grid - effectively a two hour session with a pause of 23 hours in the middle. Pironi set the fastest time in the Friday session. Then later in free practise before the Saturday qualifying session had his dreadful accident which ended his career. He set no time in the Saturday qualifying session but as all times were much slower (due to the rain) the Friday qualifying times were the fastest overall so he won "pole position". 

 

It's quite simple. I cannot fathom why there is any debate. 



#117 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 11:50

I suppose I'd say just keep both statistics and let people decide which they care about most.


I don’t think there’s a problem there. I think there’s only a problem with some seeking to redefine what pole position means in order to give weight to their preferred statistic.

#118 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 11:55

The issue that resurrected this thread btw:

https://www.motorspo...debate/6687294/

Where do we stand on this? I think it’s correct that the guy who’s fastest should stay in the record books as winning pole. Not in the situation where they’ve done something untoward like Schumacher at Monaco… although I guess the argument could be that a brand new engine gives you a potentially unfair advantage to grab that Pole.

Still think it’s strange though to think that in the history books someone else gets the Pole stat but could have qualified 2nd or 3rd depending on how many folk have incurred penalties.



#119 Rinehart

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 13:21

https://www.motorspo...-wrong/6630846/

 

Vettel has spoken out against the decision to award the sprint race winners with the pole statistic, saying that it should be a new category instead as it's a very different challenge.  Have to say I agree with him.  Thoughts?

Agree with Vettel. Whatever Liberty try to get Sky F1 to tell us... The Sprint "race" is a race. Not a qualifying session. It's just the first quarter of the Grand Prix before a "red flag" is thrown, the race is suspended and they reconvene to carry on in that order on Sunday.

 

Makes no sense to give Pole for that. Should be for qualifying for the Sprint "race" in the first place. 

 

Better still have separate qually for the Sprint Race and make it an entirely separate championship for the kids to watch. Though I don't know why F1 needs a shorter race for the kids, they'll still only watch 2 min highlights on social media anyway, whatever the full length of the live event!! 



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#120 absinthedude

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 13:38

Of course the sprint race is a qualifying session. It sets the grid for the grand prix. 

 

I completely fail to see how it's even up for discussion. It's like arguing the sky is green. 

 

However, I do agree with the sprint races being divorced from the grands prix and the WDC/WCC. Have their own championship. Maybe permit one non-regular series driver to enter per team.


Edited by absinthedude, 18 October 2021 - 13:42.


#121 Rinehart

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 13:46

How is this even up for debate?

 

Pole position is the guy who starts the Grand Prix from 1st position on the grid. Therefore the statistic goes to whoever does that, no matter what method was used to decide who it is.

Except in order to arrive at that conclusion, you can't call the Sprint a "race" (as Liberty calls it), it's clearly qualifying, so then what is the actual "qualifying" (as Liberty calls it) that precedes that? And if the person who starts the Grand Prix first is on "pole" as a result of a "race" then what is the person who starts first in the sprint race called as a result of... "qualifying"? The current solution appears to be to ignore it as it makes no sense to anyone - very elegant! And the logic of defining the person starting only the "Grand Prix" in first position as being on pole doesn't stand up to the scrutiny of motorsport-wide nomenclature of defining the first place starter of any race as being on Pole Position. So why is it ok for the Sprint Race first position starter to NOT be described as "pole position" and the winner of the preceding qualifying session not to be rewarded with the title of having earnt "pole position" in the forthcoming race? Again, the solution to overcome the fact that none of this fits at all well is to ignore it all and call a race "qualifying". After qualifying for that race! Beautiful.  :lol:

 

You say there is nothing to debate here but your own definition of pole position requires, as I have said, to pretend a number of inconvenient contradictions that this situation gives rise to, simply don't exist. Not ideal is it?...



#122 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 14:00

I never said there wasn’t a pole position for the sprint race. But just as the winner of the sprint race isn’t credited with a GP win, the sprint race pole sitter isn’t credited with a GP pole position.

#123 Rinehart

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 14:09

Of course the sprint race is a qualifying session. It sets the grid for the grand prix. 

 

I completely fail to see how it's even up for discussion. It's like arguing the sky is green. 

 

However, I do agree with the sprint races being divorced from the grands prix and the WDC/WCC. Have their own championship. Maybe permit one non-regular series driver to enter per team.

In the most obedient "this-is-what-we've-been-told-to-think-by-Liberty" of circumstances, then yes, the sprint race is the qualifying method. I accept that. (But I don't accept it),

 

Because it isn't though is it? Qualifying for the sprint race is QUALIFYING... if we're allowed to think for ourselves for 3 seconds. The sprint race is the first 12 or so laps of the Grand Prix, it's not qualifying, it's a race! Not because it conforms to an unusual criteria for a qualifying session that I can't get my head around, its because its literally a damn RACE!!! And to all intents and purposes PART of the Grand Prix, separated only by an overnight suspension. I can't see how anyone can see otherwise.

 

Liberties words to the effect that that "nope, qualifying is an almost inconvenient endeavour that we require to establish the grid order for the Sprint Race, which is indeed to be known as qualifying and as such we shant refer to qualifying itself as qualifying, except when we have to for it provides the necessary mechanism to qualify for a race whereas the subsequent race we shall refer to as qualifying, despite the fact it's already been qualified for and furthermore is to all intents and purposes and even nomenclature, indeed a RACE. We realise this is very far from an elegant solution to our pressing need to sell more content to sponsors and higher hosting fees to our promotors, but we beleive our loyal fans will support us in this pursuit of total befuddlement in order to reach our objectives". 



#124 Rinehart

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 14:13

I never said there wasn’t a pole position for the sprint race. But just as the winner of the sprint race isn’t credited with a GP win, the sprint race pole sitter isn’t credited with a GP pole position.

Ah but Liberty do say there isn't! 

Its a head fork which ever way you look at it (the liberty dictat or the sanity led conclusion)!  I could take either position and argue it until the cows come home. Bottom line is it's a mess.



#125 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 14:15

Ah but Liberty do say there isn't!
Its a head fork which ever way you look at it (the liberty dictat or the sanity led conclusion)! I could take either position and argue it until the cows come home. Bottom line is it's a mess.


Liberty’s working might be wrong, but they arrived at the right answer and that’s good enough for me.

#126 Stephane

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 14:22

For me, pole position is just a fancy name for first on the grid.

The rest is just endless chatting.


If people want to make a stat out of it, great. That's a nice hobby.

#127 DeKnyff

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 15:57

The sprint race decides the starting grid, so the sprint race winner takes the pole. IMO, it's a pole just like any other, just the method to earn it is different.



#128 ToniF1

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 16:24

Ok so few simple questions because i got lost.

 

Did Verstappen and Bottas got +1 on the pole count after a win in sprint in Silverstone/Monza ?

 

Did Hamilton got +1 after Turkey quali or it went to Bottas ?


Edited by ToniF1, 18 October 2021 - 16:25.


#129 PayasYouRace

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 16:58

Ok so few simple questions because i got lost.

 

Did Verstappen and Bottas got +1 on the pole count after a win in sprint in Silverstone/Monza ?

 

Did Hamilton got +1 after Turkey quali or it went to Bottas ?

The pole positions for those races are recorded as follows.

 

British GP: Verstappen

Italian GP: Verstappen

Turkish GP: Bottas

 

In all cases they’re the driver starting the race 1st, once everything from qualifying, including penalties, we’re applied to produce a final grid.



#130 ToniF1

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 17:20

Thx, i forgot Bottas had a penalty in Monza. It's than totally stupid that they gave Hamilton the pirelli tire trophy...you got the trophy but it's not a pole, it's the fastest lap, but it wont count.... :stoned: Give it to Bottas...


Edited by ToniF1, 18 October 2021 - 17:20.


#131 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 18:56

Pirelli awards - https://www.formula1...D39NC0FCkb.html

#132 as65p

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 19:45

Interesting twist.... so at sprint race weekends Pirelli renames their pole position award, which goes to the fastest qualifier and, traditionally, pole position holder, but don't give anything for the guy starting from pole courtesy of a sprint race.

 

So at least they found a way to not credit pole position if it's achieved the wrong way. :up: :D



#133 P123

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 20:01

Interesting twist.... so at sprint race weekends Pirelli renames their pole position award, which goes to the fastest qualifier and, traditionally, pole position holder, but don't give anything for the guy starting from pole courtesy of a sprint race.

 

So at least they found a way to not credit pole position if it's achieved the wrong way. :up: :D

 

Oh no, Speed King Positions.... I bet there was an hours long brainstorming session for that.

 

Surely they can just go with a new standalone stat for Sprint Race winners, especially if they are going to flood the championship with them going forward.  I know people are sticklers for pole being credited to who starts the GP first regardless, and they do that anyway due to grid penalties, but fastest qualifier still starts a race from pole position.



#134 PlatenGlass

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Posted 18 October 2021 - 21:03


But then I’m firmly in the camp that pole position is the starting position, and that’s the thing that has real meaning. It’s the person who started first, in contrast to the guy who finished first.

 

I suppose the other thing I'd say to this is that other series have reverse grids for some of their races, and looking at a list of most poles with those included would be fairly pointless to me. Sure, it's the person who started first, but I'm not really interested in that statistic for its own sake. I see qualifying as a separate mini-competition in its own right and I'm interested in the winners of that.