1045 replies to this topic

[Gravelngrass]

The first sprint race in F1 just finished. Is it good, is it bad or in between and what changes would you propose to make it better? Just put two options in the poll to try to see a general tendency as I suppose most will be in the middle. That's fine; if so, discuss how you would make it better.  

My opinion: No amount of tweaking or gimmicks will have the desired effect in a formula designed around conservation, a concept which by itself goes against everything racing should be and is at the core of today's F1 failure as a racing series.

 

Until it is understood that a separation between road relevance and the pure spectacle of racing is needed as both have long ago moved and continue to move in very different paths, the racing part of F1 will keep declining. The saddest part of this is all the wasted talent, which, in reality, is all or mostly what this should be about. 

 

Just hoping some of those billionaires sees this and comes up with a racing series instead of investing in a pretty bad show. 

 

Edited by Gravelngrass, 17 July 2021 - 17:01.

[Heyli]

I think it was allright. Wouldnt mind giving it another go. I know it breaks with a lot of traditions and causes headaches for some statistics (at least for some people), but I do enjoy the action packed weekend. Wouldnt need it every race, but I did enjoy it and still something to look forward to for tomorrow.

[Diablobb81]

INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER

[A3]

No. No. Hell No.

 

And what the hell was going on with that Alonso graphic? Turning into a silly TV show with that stupid truck. Blegh. 

[baku]

Yes!

[A.Fant]

I liked it despite being essentially a traditionalist and purist. To me it is basically a 2 leg race and I don't see a problem with that as long as they don't shorten the GP. My only issue was the gimmicky production and the fact that they give out points for it.

 

But perhaps my perspective is slightly different from a regular F1 fan having loved the Macau GP for a long time.

Edited by A.Fant, 17 July 2021 - 16:42.

[Anja]

The not-a-race itself was fine, the awful part is pretending that it's a proper sprint race or qualifying (and they can't even decide which is it supposed to be). Just call it an extension of the GP because that's what it is.

Edited by Anja, 17 July 2021 - 16:43.

[dreamer]

My first impression was a good one but I need to watch more to have a better opinion.

[A.Fant]

The not-a-race itself was fine, the awful part is pretending that it's a proper sprint race or qualifying (and they can't even decide which is it supposed to be). Just call it an extension of the GP because that's what it is.

It's a Qualifying Race just like at Macau and they're idiots for not naming it as such.

Edited by A.Fant, 17 July 2021 - 16:45.

[ANF]

Perhaps you should rephrase the poll question "Do you think the Sprint Race today was good?" – I didn't think the race was bad, but I still think the idea of a sprint race is bad for the sport.

[thegamer23]

It was not bad, it just felt...incomplete.

It's neither a quali nor a sprint race.

 

This whole Sprint Qualifying concept is flawed imho

IF they really want to push for this 2nd race, than they should go with a proper Sprint Race, half race distance long with a Reversed starting grid for Top 10.

Also, awarding points for the Top 10, similar to F2 sprint races.

 

As it is, i see it as pretty pointless.

[1player]

It was not bad, it just felt...incomplete.

It's neither a quali nor a sprint race.

 

This whole Sprint Qualifying concept is flawed imho

IF they really want to push for this 2nd race, than they should go with a proper Sprint Race, half race distance long with a Reversed starting grid for Top 10.

Also, awarding points for the Top 10, similar to F2 sprint races.

 

As it is, i see it as pretty pointless.

 

As blasphemous to many as it may be, perhaps it needs more gimmicks to be even better. 

 

Not sure I agree with your suggestion, mine would be to have qualifying and sprint the same day. Call them "pre-qualifying" and "qualifying race" instead.

 

I need to see how it plays out during the next 2 weekends this season before making my mind about it.

[Ruusperi]

That question is deceiving.

Even if today's race had been better than Brazil 2012 and Canada 2011 combined (it wasn't), I'm strongly against any kind of gimmicks including sprint races that add nothing, mess up the schedule and only devalue both the qualifying and the race. The weekend format for the past 15 years has been totally perfect and should stay as that for the next 100 years. Change for the sake change is stupidity in its fullest form. There are real problems in a sport called F1, so Liberty Media, put your effort to solve those issues.

[A.Fant]

It was not bad, it just felt...incomplete.

It's neither a quali nor a sprint race.

 

This whole Sprint Qualifying concept is flawed imho

IF they really want to push for this 2nd race, than they should go with a proper Sprint Race, half race distance long with a Reversed starting grid for Top 10.

Also, awarding points for the Top 10, similar to F2 sprint races.

 

As it is, i see it as pretty pointless.

Why? That would actually take some prestige and focus off the actual Grand Prix in a way the current format doesn't do in my book. The reason the race was slightly processional is down to the track, just look at the F2 races which were magnitudes worse.

 

The drivers were obviously pushing hard despite points not being on offer outside the top 3 and I'd very much prefer no points being available at all from a purist POV. We don't give out points for the race order at half distance so we shouldn't really give them out for the sprint race either.

[Gravelngrass]

Perhaps you should rephrase the poll question "Do you think the Sprint Race today was good?" – I didn't think the race was bad, but I still think the idea of a sprint race is bad for the sport.

Thanks, have modified it to get a more general idea about the idea of sprint races in F1 after actually having watched one. 

[mclarensmps]

I personally think this sprint would have been even more meaningless had Fernando not chosen the wrong tyres, 

There is some potential to do something with a sprint race, but this wasn't it. Whether it's allowing drivers to use DRS X number of times anywhere they want per lap, or doing something very different with tyres, or engine modes, I don't have the answer, but this shouldn't be the way forward. 

[ANF]

Thanks, have modified it to get a more general idea about the idea of sprint races in F1 after actually having watched one.

Thanks!

[ConsiderAndGo]

Need more trials before passing judgement.

Need another answer option.

[Gecko]

It’s underwhelming primarily because it’s so short. Friday’s qualifying has lost the impact it held previously, and Saturday’s event has been lessened, not improved. It just felt like a short fizzle rather than the event that should build up to the race.

[cpbell]

INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER

Agreed.  I enjoyed it, and think it might work, but we haven't yet seen its effect on the GP itself.

[Paco]

Quali Race A Race B

 

Race A was just 90s F1 refueling all out lapping vs Race B which ultra conservative tire preservation racing.   NO WAY THIS is qualifying or pole setting.  Its just a mini 90s race couple with a 2020 race merged together with a red flag.

[NoForumForOldPole]

Once they work it out it will be processional.

[peggle]

i get the impression the owners would like to make it more Indy than F1 over the long-term, sadly im rapidly getting disillusioned with F1 and the way its going, **** tyre, predictable strategy's, next thing we will see is full course yellows lol 

[Anderis]

I don't quite like the way the tension builds up in the new format. The sprint takes away the satisfaction from qualifying because a lot of things can happen between Q and the main race, so instead "great, my favourite driver/team will be in a great position for the race" it's now "I hope all the success is not undone in the sprint". And the sprint itself is like a little spoiler too. We get to see one more standing start before the standing start in the main race, which was always the point of the greatest tension in the entire weekend, now it'll be a little less special. The sprint itself kind of meaningful, because there are those little points for the top3 but not quite as meaningful as a race should be. There are no pit stops, so the tactical element to the race is mostly gone but cars are lined up according to the qualifying speed meaning we aren't likey to get a lot of reshuffle over such a small number of laps.

Not a fan. To me it feels like the worst of the both worlds. It's like the solution was meant to be a compromise between adding one more relevant session to the weekend but not drifting away from the tradition too much. The effect is a bit meh. The sprint does take away from qualifying and main race so if we have to have two races during one weekend I would rather have something more substantial.

[Gravelngrass]

That question is deceiving.

Even if today's race had been better than Brazil 2012 and Canada 2011 combined (it wasn't), I'm strongly against any kind of gimmicks including sprint races that add nothing, mess up the schedule and only devalue both the qualifying and the race. The weekend format for the past 15 years has been totally perfect and should stay as that for the next 100 years. Change for the sake change is stupidity in its fullest form. There are real problems in a sport called F1, so Liberty Media, put your effort to solve those issues.

Which is exactly what my opinion on the OP was. However, once they address the big issues, who's to say another race during the weekend wouldn't be a good idea? If I was a paying customer and the racing was actually good (I don't think it is on the long races either), the more races, the better, unless of course they are too gimmicky. 

Put simpler: no one is going to want to race and no one has really raced in the last F1 era because the whole conception of racing is wrong. Just an example: who's going to want to push with tyre limitations, engine limitations, gear box limitations, car setup limitations, just to name a few? And is it really racing if it's all simulated by a computer before and given to the car administrator to execute only? 

[Paco]

I say based on this weekend:

 

Stop Friday all together.

Sat FP1, Quali.

Sun Race A all out 1 tire compound on ultra softs.  Stop for 15mins coffee break all drivers sitting on patio chairs and tables sipping an Espresso and having a cookie (or circling the track in that truck so fans can watch them drinking their espresso).  Race B conservative tire preservation race restarting with how Race A ended having tire stops and strategy.

Edited by Paco, 17 July 2021 - 17:15.

[absinthedude]

I suspect everyone knows my views on  this.

 

By all the gods, no. Never again, please.

[Pete_f1]

Yeah, not to bad. Cant really judge on one track but the crowd probably enjoyed it

[Calum]

I suspect everyone knows my views on this.

By all the gods, no. Never again, please.

See you for Monza!

[chhatra]

All this proved to me is that we should bring back more durable tires that drivers can race with and bring back refueling so the cars are always being pushed. If they can do that with next years ‘easier to follow’ cars then we should see great racing more often.

[Paco]

All this proved to me is that we should bring back more durable tires that drivers can race with and bring back refueling so the cars are always being pushed. If they can do that with next years ‘easier to follow’ cars then we should see great racing more often.

 

But there wasn't that much racing and most was solely cause they were racing on light fuel.

 

We'd need fuel stops again so the last 3rd of the race would be new tires and light fuel.

[Gravelngrass]

To be a bit more constructive, if they are going to have it, it might as well have some tweaks:

 

1. Make points proportionate to distance to make it more meaningful. So if sprint is 1/3 of the main event, make it give 1/3 of the points of the respective positions (so 1 to 10 and not only 1 to 3). 

 

2. Try different stuff to see if it makes racing better overall. For example, no pit comms allowed. Or relax parc ferme rules. Relax engine, gearbox, etc. limitations (I know, complicated to reconcile with budget cap and conservation paradigm but just wanted to put it out there).

 

3. Don't make it count for main race starting position, just for points, improving them (see 1). That'll make qualy more meaningful again and racing less careful.

 

4. Try alternate circuit configurations or directions for the sprint.

[Gravelngrass]

All this proved to me is that we should bring back more durable tires that drivers can race with and bring back refueling so the cars are always being pushed. If they can do that with next years ‘easier to follow’ cars then we should see great racing more often.

I'm not sure lack of pushing has to do with refueling. IMO it has much more to do with the way everything is conceived: engine limitations, gearbox limitations (because they are so expensive and there's a budget cap), parc ferme limitations, mandatory use of compounds, tyre preservation and a long etc. Refueling creates different races in the same track, which is not really what people that prefer close quarters racing would like to see, but that's another subject. 

[A.Fant]

To be a bit more constructive, if they are going to have it, it might as well have some tweaks:

 

1. Make points proportionate to distance to make it more meaningful. So if sprint is 1/3 of the main event, make it give 1/3 of the points of the respective positions (so 1 to 10 and not only 1 to 3). 

 

2. Try different stuff to see if it makes racing better overall. For example, no pit comms allowed. Or relax parc ferme rules. Relax engine, gearbox, etc. limitations (I know, complicated to reconcile with budget cap and conservation paradigm but just wanted to put it out there).

 

3. Don't make it count for main race starting position, just for points, improving them (see 1). That'll make qualy more meaningful again and racing less careful.

 

4. Try alternate circuit configurations or directions for the sprint.

You can't do it to 10th unless you want to introduce a ridiculous amount of fractions and decimals, but a 8-6-5-4-3-2-1 for the top 7 could work mathematically. But you don't just win points, you also win positions for the GP so I think that's way too much.

 

Much prefer no points at all and considering it the first stage of the Grand Prix (like the Macau QUALIFYING RACE I'll never stop harping about) rather than a separate event and the drivers obviously take it seriously regardless of points being on hand.

[PilgrimsDrop]

Sprint race means the grid will be more or less formed according to race pace meaning it'll most likely provide less overtaking/surprise performances. Also, FP2 after Parc Fermé?? What idiot thought that was a good idea??

[statman]

[Brundle] This F1 Sprint format has to be considered a solid success so far

[Red5ive]

Just a more complicated way of getting pretty much the same grid as we would normally get.

 

Only in this case, the fastest car in quali doesnt start on pole.

 

Brundle is caught up in the moment - but the reality is, its business as usual for tomorrows grid.  Nothing happened today that couldnt (and probably will) happen on Sunday.

Edited by Red5ive, 17 July 2021 - 17:34.

[Bloggsworth]

The first sprint race in F1 just finished. Is it good, is it bad or in between and what changes would you propose to make it better? Just put two options in the poll to try to see a general tendency as I suppose most will be in the middle. That's fine; if so, discuss how you would make it better.  

My opinion: No amount of tweaking or gimmicks will have the desired effect in a formula designed around conservation, a concept which by itself goes against everything racing should be and is at the core of today's F1 failure as a racing series.

 

Until it is understood that a separation between road relevance and the pure spectacle of racing is needed as both have long ago moved and continue to move in very different paths, the racing part of F1 will keep declining. The saddest part of this is all the wasted talent, which, in reality, is all or mostly what this should be about. 

 

Just hoping some of those billionaires sees this and comes up with a racing series instead of investing in a pretty bad show. 

 

Given the fact that you don't offer an "In between option" in the poll your first line is redundant...

 

[A.Fant]

I'm not sure lack of pushing has to do with refueling. IMO it has much more to do with the way everything is conceived: engine limitations, gearbox limitations (because they are so expensive and there's a budget cap), parc ferme limitations, mandatory use of compounds, tyre preservation and a long etc. Refueling creates different races in the same track, which is not really what people that prefer close quarters racing would like to see, but that's another subject. 

Refueling also ensures that cars almost never wind up in situations where there is a significant pace differential.

 

In the current system if a front running car pits and comes out behind a mid field car that has yet to pit in the sequence, there will be a significant differential as the car behind both is intrinsically faster and has a tyre advantage.

 

With refueling the weight penalty far outweighs the tyre advantage and the car behind is usually only marginally faster (if at all) than the car in front who is much, much lighter. The car just had to wait until the car in front had to pit for fuel and get on with it in clear air when that happened. I remember at the start of 09 when Rosberg always qualified with a heavy fuel load hoping to pick up positions with the overcut (which was the way to get ahead, getting clear air with a light car was always faster), unfortunately for him this used to mean that when Button pitted from the lead he'd come out right ahead of him and despite Rosberg being faster at that stage it ruined his race as he couldn't put in the fast laps when he needed them and had to drive at Button's pace until his stop.

 

Then add the fact that there is little to no fleixibility on strategy as it is 99% of the time faster to stay out until you are completely dry on fuel, meaning you are locked into your stint as soon as the fuel hose disconnects.

 

94-09 had by far the least on-track overtakes (1993 and 2010 were almost exactly the same IIRC, both around twice the amount of overtakes per race as the 94-09 era) and the races were incredibly static in nature, everyone just waiting for how the pitstops would play out.

Edited by A.Fant, 17 July 2021 - 17:40.

[Counterbalance]

[Brundle] This F1 Sprint format has to be considered a solid success so far

I doubt anyone who is let remotely near the paddock is allowed to give anything but glowing praise for today’s qualifying race.

[Gravelngrass]

You can't do it to 10th unless you want to introduce a ridiculous amount of fractions and decimals, but a 8-6-5-4-3-2-1 for the top 7 could work mathematically. But you don't just win points, you also win positions for the GP so I think that's way too much.

 

Much prefer no points at all and considering it the first stage of the Grand Prix (like the Macau QUALIFYING RACE I'll never stop harping about) rather than a separate event and the drivers obviously take it seriously regardless of points being on hand.

Yes, so the race is 1/3 the length and 25 points for first? Ok, give 8 points for fist as you have mentioned, as so on. No need to complicate too much.

 

You don't win positions for the GP that was the point. Qualifying is for both the sprint and the main race, but more points could make them drive more aggressively without fear of losing starting position. Of course this would have to be accompanied by other tweaks so that they don't have to be so careful with the car for example. It really all takes to simpler and cheaper everything which in turn would allow to have more parts, push the existing parts more, etc. But that all has to come from a change of conception or paradigm. 

[jimjimjeroo]

Separate sprint championship

Give them more points

[Gareth]

Very boringly I didn’t vote. Because I’m still very much undecided.

Think this weekend so far it’s been a plus. At the circuit, it’s been a massive plus - the weekend is so much better value. On TV I think I’d consider it a minor plus.

I think there are potential downsides that, fortunately, haven’t yet appeared this weekend. But that have potential to appear in future weekends with this format.

So I’m not yet ready to judge, although if judging this weekend only I’d err on the side of ‘been good’.

Mostly, I think I like the plan for this to be the exception rather than the rule.

[fed up]

I don't quite like the way the tension builds up in the new format. The sprint takes away the satisfaction from qualifying because a lot of things can happen between Q and the main race, so instead "great, my favourite driver/team will be in a great position for the race" it's now "I hope all the success is not undone in the sprint". And the sprint itself is like a little spoiler too. We get to see one more standing start before the standing start in the main race, which was always the point of the greatest tension in the entire weekend, now it'll be a little less special. The sprint itself kind of meaningful, because there are those little points for the top3 but not quite as meaningful as a race should be. There are no pit stops, so the tactical element to the race is mostly gone but cars are lined up according to the qualifying speed meaning we aren't likey to get a lot of reshuffle over such a small number of laps.

Not a fan. To me it feels like the worst of the both worlds. It's like the solution was meant to be a compromise between adding one more relevant session to the weekend but not drifting away from the tradition too much. The effect is a bit meh. The sprint does take away from qualifying and main race so if we have to have two races during one weekend I would rather have something more substantial.

Mate, you hit the nail on the head. Nothing really to add other than to vote an emphatic no, no, no, no!

[hansmann]

All this proved to me is that we should bring back more durable tires that drivers can race with and bring back refueling so the cars are always being pushed. If they can do that with next years ‘easier to follow’ cars then we should see great racing more often.

 

That was my impression as well ; the sprint race really showed how tyres fit for the purpose could improve the racing - or in other words , the Pirellis suck .

I'm not sure about refueling being necessary, but decent tyres and the aero tweaks could go a long way .

 

As for having this sprint race - no .

Absolutely not .

 

It's a silly crowd pleaser that is compromising the very idea of merit based competition .

[Mat13]

Enjoyed it immensely.

[Gravelngrass]

Given the fact that you don't offer an "In between option" in the poll your first line is redundant...

You can still think it's in between and offer your opinion as to why. Just wanted to see a clearer tendency. 

[Paco]

To be a bit more constructive, if they are going to have it, it might as well have some tweaks:

1. Make points proportionate to distance to make it more meaningful. So if sprint is 1/3 of the main event, make it give 1/3 of the points of the respective positions (so 1 to 10 and not only 1 to 3).

2. Try different stuff to see if it makes racing better overall. For example, no pit comms allowed. Or relax parc ferme rules. Relax engine, gearbox, etc. limitations (I know, complicated to reconcile with budget cap and conservation paradigm but just wanted to put it out there).

3. Don't make it count for main race starting position, just for points, improving them (see 1). That'll make qualy more meaningful again and racing less careful.

4. Try alternate circuit configurations or directions for the sprint.

1. Doing so would mean it’s not qualifying and a race and as such it takes away significantly from Sundays real race.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

It’s a race. It takes away from Sundays GP. Most unknowns for Sunday have now been put on the table. It 100% takes away who is the fastest aspect of F1, it takes away from the Sunday start cause we already got that, it takes away a lot unknown race delta unknown from the front of the grid... we already know Lewis can’t keep up with Max in corners. Max now knows how to manage his race as does Lewis.

And for what? Nothing.

Edited by Paco, 17 July 2021 - 17:45.

[Red5ive]

To make it even more entertaining I think they should wet the track before the start.....

 

 

 

I'll get me coat.

[A.Fant]

1. Doing so would mean it’s not qualifying and a race and as such it takes away significantly from Sundays real race.

They are trying to have their cake and eat it too.

In the current format I'd say they are doing quite a good job of it. You can't introduce a new session with significance without taking some out of the existing ones, but I'd say we gained more than we lost and I don't think we lost much if at all from the GP while qualifying did lose some - which I'm fine with since I've never liked how much significance a non-racing session has garnered.

 

I agree with those that say qualifying and racing are two different beasts and I don't think hotlapping should have as much significance as it has had over the past decades, so the more I think about it the more I like Qualifying Races.

Edited by A.Fant, 17 July 2021 - 17:46.