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What happens if you disallow pit stops during SC/red flag.


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#1 Anderis

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 23:17

After the British GP, when Hamilton benefitted from being able to repair his car under the red flag after a collision he was found guilty of by the stewards, there has been a lot of discussion about what should and what should not be allowed under a red flag, and by extension also under SC. One of the points being brought under discussion was if it should be possible to change tyres during a red flag or SC. What I have realised is that some people are under the impression that disallowing to change tyres would make things fairer. After all it’s easy to focus on those instances where somebody has gained positions due to being able to have a “free” tyre change. What’s more difficult to realise is what would happen if the rules were changed, because that has not happened in F1, yet.

 

I have prepared a few mini-scenarios to let you visualise how forbidding tyre changes under SC or red flag will throw some races completely upside down.

 

First scenario:

Let’s assume this is the situation somewhere mid race before the pit stops start.

initial.png

 

Drivers in green managed to pit before the SC/red flag and drivers in red after SC/red flag. It doesn’t really matter if it’s one or the other because by the time of restart, they bunch up the field in a similar way ultimately. I assumed a pit stop takes 25 secs. The situation looks like this now.

2.png

 

Now the SC/red flag has appeared. Drivers are not allowed to change tyres. Once the restart happens, the cars are bunched up so the situation looks something like this.

3.png

 

The drivers who have not pitted are in a very tough situation. Of course they can’t drive away from drivers who are on much fresher tyres. Most likely they are about to get overtaken left right and centre if they stay out. The only sensible thing to do is to pit for new tyres right away. They have to change tyres at some point anyway. Better to do it now than later when they lose even more time and positions on worn tyres.The situation after they pit look like this.

4popr.png

 

As you see it makes basically all the difference at what point you were scheduled to pit should a red flag or SC appear in the middle of a pit window and tyre changes are not allowed.

 

 

Second scenario: perhaps an example when a race leader decided to go long and is the only driver yet to pit can visualize even better how unfair forbidding changing tyres can be:

Before:

5-6.png

After:

7-8.png

 

And here you can see what happens if you can change tyres under red flag instead (compared to the first scenario). The drivers in red have just a free pit stop. The average position change from an initial pecking order is 2.64 positions, while in the “no tyre change” scenario, it was 4 positions. During a SC the average position change would've been even smaller if tyre changes are allowed (because a pit stop under SC "costs" you more than 0 time), thus a difference in "unfairness" even bigger.

9.png

 

Of course I made some simplifications along the way but I don't think any of it should matter much to what I'm saying. I hope everybody understands the concept now. You can still be in favour of forbidding tyre changes but I hope you're aware of what it brings to the races.

 



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#2 pdac

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Posted 20 July 2021 - 23:28

I appreciate you have put a lot of effort into this but, really, each event is unique and I'm not sure you can derive any meaningful information from historical events.



#3 jee

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:38

 

What happens if you disallow pit stops during SC/red flag?

Piquet Singapore 2008



#4 Anderis

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:41

I'm not sure you can derive any meaningful information from historical events.

Why would you not?

 

+ I don't think you've put any effort into reading the thread because what I've done has nothing to do with historical events.

 

What happens when you disallow to change tyres and then bunch the cars up is a pretty universal thing. I've shown more than one example. Saying that each event is unique seems to me like an finding an easy excuse to not dive into specifics and not bother with what i have to say.



#5 absinthedude

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:42

Let's just have a rule saying that Lewis Hamilton isn't allowed to win.

 

That seems to be the crux of the matter. It's never been controversial before.



#6 PayasYouRace

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:44

We’ve tried this before. We ended up with drivers getting ridiculous penalties for no good reason.

#7 Marklar

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:46

nailed it, Anderis.

This is why we should never demand changes based on a result we didnt like. You can make it even worse.

#8 PlatenGlass

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 11:52

I think it makes sense. Whether you allow tyre changes or not, it will benefit some drivers and not others, but allowing them leads to less "unfairness" overall.

 

 

 

And here you can see what happens if you can change tyres under red flag instead (compared to the first scenario). The drivers in red have just a free pit stop. The average position change from an initial pecking order is 2.64 positions, while in the “no tyre change” scenario, it was 4 positions. During a SC the average position change would've been even smaller if tyre changes are allowed (because a pit stop under SC "costs" you more than 0 time), thus a difference in "unfairness" even bigger.

 

Just to clarify - you're saying that allowing pitstops under a safety car is fairer though right? It seems to follow from your analysis, but your sentence confuses me a bit.



#9 loki

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 13:55

Most all other racing disciplines disallow work on the car under red flag conditions.  It’s not difficult. 



#10 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 14:16

We’ve tried this before. We ended up with drivers getting ridiculous penalties for no good reason.

 

Wasn't that in the refueling era where a closed pit could mean a driverengaged pushengine? Without refueling, that isn't a worry.



#11 eibyyz

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 14:21

What's wrong with how NA$CAR and IndyCar handle SC (full-course yellow) and red flag incidences?  



#12 SenorSjon

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 14:28

What's wrong with how NA$CAR and IndyCar handle SC (full-course yellow) and red flag incidences?  

 

Because that is a 'blink first' lottery?



#13 eibyyz

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 14:33

Because that is a 'blink first' lottery?

 

And Silverstone wasn't a lottery?  What if the wreck had happened at Stowe, for example.  VER still wrecked, HAM done with a pit stop to get a new tyre/wheel already, then they throw the red?



#14 redreni

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Posted 21 July 2021 - 22:16

I appreciate you have put a lot of effort into this but, really, each event is unique and I'm not sure you can derive any meaningful information from historical events.

Oh. My uncle's a history professor. He'll be disappointed to hear this.



#15 kumo7

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 05:49

What happens will be that what exactly happened here.

 

Many have differnet OPINIONS.

Many argue for Status Quo, just because.

Many FEAR the change.

Many argues that there is no logic, while what is currently going on is also not a logic but operation by rule.

Many are lost because they see no reason as to why it should.

 

So I say Why Should you do it, is the right question.

 

Ao Anderis, why do you want it to happen?



#16 Myrvold

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 17:13

The answer to this thread is 2008.



#17 ANF

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Posted 22 July 2021 - 17:56

2008 Crashgate highlights: