1541 replies to this topic

[Marklar]

https://twitter.com/...8193339394?s=20

I'm hearing news that Karun Chandhok is ready for his next performance

[Diablobb81]

Waste of time. Unless they have a confession by Lewis that he did it on purpose, no other "proof" will change what the stewards established and the penalty they imposed.

Edited by Diablobb81, 27 July 2021 - 13:29.

[potmotr]

What a total waste of time. Horner needs to have a good look in the mirror. But I suppose the pressure from Marko/Verstappen Snr is quite intense.

[itsgreen84]

Let them try, doubt anything changes for them...

 

The 10sec penalty is what you get, doubt they have anything new to add that wasn't available to the stewards...

[Requiem84]

Is this Red Bull finding out that legal costs are not part of the budget cap, and now RB just wants to spend money which was lying on the shelf?

 

I think this sets a bad precedent for the sport and I can't see the original Stewards decision being overturned, as this would lead to a **** storm of appeals going forward to any steward decisions.

 

Very curious what the new evidence is though. 

[Requiem84]

By the way, why is the date on the document 29 July - it only is 27 July?

[potmotr]

I wonder how Max feels about all this, it makes him look like a cry baby.

 

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And he did have a massive championship lead to think about. 

[PayasYouRace]

Going by the general opinion amongst most F1 experts, the review is more likely to get Lewis’ penalty points repealed as the incident is deemed to have been nothing more than a racing incident.

[Marklar]

Is this Red Bull finding out that legal costs are not part of the budget cap, and now RB just wants to spend money which was lying on the shelf?

 

I think this sets a bad precedent for the sport and I can't see the original Stewards decision being overturned, as this would lead to a **** storm of appeals going forward to any steward decisions.

 

Very curious what the new evidence is though. 

I mean Ferrari and Alfa did the same in the past. It would only set a bad precedent if the decision is overturned, then yes, it will be a shitshow going forward (unless it's a mega clear evidence like a tape of Lewis admitting that he did it on purpose or something).

Most teams only really do this for psychological warefare against the competition and to show their driver that they are fully behind them, rarely do they genuinely think that they have a chance.

[shure]

By the way, why is the date on the document 29 July - it only is 27 July?

If I had to hazard a guess it would be that they just made a mistake and took the date of the hearing for the letter.  Which is not great on an official document, of course

[monolulu]

https://twitter.com/...8193339394?s=20

I'm hearing news that Karun Chandhok is ready for his next performance

Palmer will do!

[Requiem84]

Even if RB magically win this appeal and a stricter punishment is applied on Hamilton, it doesn't look good on RB at all.

 

There are no winners in this, no matter the outcome . 

[shure]

I wonder how Max feels about all this, it makes him look like a cry baby.

 

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

And he did have a massive championship lead to think about. 

I very much doubt anyone is genuinely thinking that Max is behind this, so also doubt it will make him look good or bad.  The only optics will probably be around Horner and especially Marko, but unless Max comes out with a statement endorsing it I doubt his reputation will be affected much at all

[Alfisti]

It damn well should be appealed, Max should be penalised for taking the racing line when there was another car slap in the middle of it. Absolutely gobsmacked at the decisions the stewards have taken recently. 

 

They got the Lando/Perez one right but Bottas bloody well swerved right and caused the incident with Russel and max bloody well chopped across lewis line god dammit. The man in front has a responsibility to give the competing driver with overlap a reasonable line. 

Edited by Alfisti, 27 July 2021 - 14:25.

[monolulu]

By the way, why is the date on the document 29 July - it only is 27 July?

That’s  the date of the hearing not the date the petition is lodged.

[jcbc3]

It's a request for Horner to be present at 16:00.

Has Toto gotten a similar request?

 

edit: He has: https://www.autospor...-clash/6637564/

[Ivanhoe]

That’s  the date of the hearing not the date the petition is lodged.

Yeah, but that at 16:00. The date at the top is probably a typo. The date at the top should be the date of the document.

[Ivanhoe]

It's a request for Horner to be present at 16:00.

Has Toto gotten a similar request?

Toto will probably come uninvited, like he did at the race 

[FastnLoud]

Redbull still embarrassing themselves 😂

[Goron3]

The most fun thing about this whole incident is that the document Wolff was so keen to give to the stewards was an internal document used by Mercedes to explain to Lewis / Rosberg what they could / couldn't do when racing in each other.

[Burtros]

Just let it go and move on. I’d laugh for a week if there was greater penalty but it ain’t gonna happen.

There are plenty more errors left in Hamilton this year if Red Bull keep the pressure on. He can’t get lucky every time he makes a mess of things.

Strikes me Red Bull are loosing their heads a little which is exactly what Mercedes need.

[MikeTekRacing]

The man in front has a responsibility to give the competing driver with overlap a reasonable line. 

this is becoming pure gold. should he give that person a coffee and a neck massage too?

Edited by MikeTekRacing, 27 July 2021 - 13:48.

[Goron3]

Red Bull believe that Lewis was never going to take the corner and regardless of Max, was always going off. It's going to be interesting to see what they produce.

[aportinga]

What a complete embarassment!

 

Hard for me to support this team if they seriously move forward with this.

 

At least I still have the Oranje leeuwinnen to cheer on 

Edited by aportinga, 27 July 2021 - 13:58.

[aportinga]

 

 

I think this sets a bad precedent for the sport and I can't see the original Stewards decision being overturned, as this would lead to a **** storm of appeals going forward to any steward decisions.

 

 

 

This is exactly what my thoughts are as well.

 

Frankly if RB are this petty and willing ti inflict damage on the sport then they should also be liabel for all the legal costs if and when they lose.

[Ivanhoe]

Don't understand why people are so wound up about this. Red Bull have a right to appeal and they make use of that right. They apparently think they have data to support their case. Let them, if they have no case nothing changes and they wasted some limited resources for the preperation of the appeal, and in the very unlikely event they have a case, they were damn right to appeal.

[SilverArrow31]

This is unbelievable pathetic even by Horner's low standards, what do they expect them to do? Give Hamilton a suspension and kick him out of the next race? Any change and it will just lead to every team appealing every decision, the only team that should have the right to appeal in this case is Mercedes as the penalty was against them, and they would be rightfully laughed all the way out the door...

 

Edit: if this is about getting the cost cap not to count against crashes then that's actually fair to ask, if its in any way to do with the sport, asking for a harsher penalty etc. then it just throws the whole sport into chaos, its not as if cars don't collect each other ALL of the time... anything comes out of this and you will have Alfa Romeo lobbing for bigger Alpha Tauri penalty on the off chance it will get them more prize money in the final standings, just an example.

Edited by SilverArrow31, 27 July 2021 - 14:08.

[Ellios]

Toto will probably come uninvited, like he did at the race 

 

I thought Michael Masi invited Toto to come and visit the stewards? I', sure I heard that on team radio ?

 

I could be wrong of course  

[Ivanhoe]

I thought Michael Masi invited Toto to come and visit the stewards? I', sure I heard that on team radio ?

 

I could be wrong of course

No, FIA even came with new guidelines after Toto's unannounced visit to the stewards.

 

https://www.gpblog.c...guidelines.html

[PayasYouRace]

Don't understand why people are so wound up about this. Red Bull have a right to appeal and they make use of that right. They apparently think they have data to support their case. Let them, if they have no case nothing changes and they wasted some limited resources for the preperation of the appeal, and in the very unlikely event they have a case, they were damn right to appeal.

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal, not Red Bull’s.

[Mercstar]

RB have always appeared to be a bunch of sore losers, this is only goes to confirm that notion.

 

Horner and Co really need to get over themselves. 

[Mark1865]

No, FIA even came with new guidelines after Toto's unannounced visit to the stewards.

https://www.gpblog.c...guidelines.html

I’m pretty sure Masi said on the radio that Toto was welcome to go up and speak to the stewards, it was broadcast as part of the ‘email’ discussion.

[aportinga]

This is unbelievable pathetic even by Horner's low standards, what do they expect them to do? Give Hamilton a suspension and kick him out of the next race?

 

Maybe just give MV the title and that works?

[Ivanhoe]

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal.

It's in the document itself, which refers to article 14 of the ISC.

 

If, in Competitions forming part of an FIA Championship, cup, trophy, challenge or series, or of an international series, a significant and relevant new element is discovered which was unavailable to the parties seeking the review at the time of the decision concerned, the stewards who have given a ruling or, failing this, those designated by the FIA, may decide to re-examine their decision following a petition for review by: - either one of the parties concerned and/or a party that is directly affected by the decision handed down, or - the Secretary General for Sport of the FIA. The stewards must meet (in person or by other means) on a date agreed amongst themselves, summoning the party or parties concerned to hear any relevant explanations and to judge in the light of the facts and elements brought before them.

[MikeTekRacing]

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal, not Red Bull’s.

if an appeal was filed a hearing scheduled (not dismissed on lack of grounds) then they have every right to do it.

 

of course it pisses of Lewis fans, but Red Bull are in here to win, not to be loved by Lewis fans

[Marklar]

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal, not Red Bull’s.

I wonder if they try to get the costs of the crash excluded from the budget cap, because yeah, they have not really much of a chance to change the penalty.

Would be also a massive can of worms though.

[Cliff]

It’s funny how everyone is now suddenly up on their high horses after Mercedes have been playing dirty all year with the rear wing, tire pressure and pitstop sagas. Trying every pathetic thing in their power to slow RB down. Now RB bite back and want a bigger penalty for something that ultimately costs them A Silverstone DNF and a back of the grid start later this season due to engine penalties, all the while setting them back 1.8 million. Considering Lewis was NEVER going to make that corner he’s gotten off waaayyyy too easy.

Edited by Cliff, 27 July 2021 - 14:03.

[monolulu]

No, FIA even came with new guidelines after Toto's unannounced visit to the stewards.

 

https://www.gpblog.c...guidelines.html

They came up with new guide lines afterwards but Masi did allow Toto to see stewards.

[Ivanhoe]

I wonder if they try to get the costs of the crash excluded from the budget cap, because yeah, they have not really much of a chance to change the penalty.

Would be also a massive can of worms though.

Not possible by this appeal, as that is not part of the steward's decision. 

[TheFish]

If Red Bull win and the stewards decide the penalty wasn't harsh enough, what can they do?

[Requiem84]

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal, not Red Bull’s.

 

You can find the original Stewards decision here: https://www.fia.com/...with_car_33.pdf

 

In the decision, the following is explicitly mentioned:

 

Competitors are reminded that they have the right to appeal certain decisions of the Stewards, in accordance with Article 15 of the FIA International Sporting Code and Article 10.1.1 of the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules, within the applicable time limits

[shure]

Do Red Bull have a right to appeal? Time penalties issued during the race can’t be appealed. Even if they could, the penalty was issued to Mercedes so it would be their right to appeal, not Red Bull’s.

It's not actually an appeal.  Apparently it's a petition for the matter to be looked at again, which sounds similar but according to the report below falls under different rules

 

https://www.motorspo...-clash/6637565/

[paipa]

The only outcome I can see which isn't "case closed, move on" is the FIA rescinding the two penalty points Hamilton got on his license. He didn't actually violate any rule. The penalty was a vain attempt to placate these loud idiots. Seeing that they doubled down instead, the FIA might as well revise the bullshit penalty and tell them to f.. themselves.

[Ellios]

No, FIA even came with new guidelines after Toto's unannounced visit to the stewards.

 

https://www.gpblog.c...guidelines.html

 

I did hear it - although Toto did say I'm coming up first.

 

 

Just thought I hearing voices in my head. 

[Risil]

By the way, why is the date on the document 29 July - it only is 27 July?

 

Marklar has transcended the usual flow of time: it had to happen eventually

[SirT]

Red Bull really look pathetic doing this. Just like Ferrari did last time. There really should be consequences for wasting everyone's time and doing damage to F1's image, with these types of appeals. 

[Ivanhoe]

Right, didn't hear that, although I think Toto was already on his way up when Masi said that. Anyway, another act of incompetence by Masi given his new guidelines later that week.

[Requiem84]

It's in the document itself, which refers to article 14 of the ISC.

 

I think Article 15 is referred to, and not article 14?

 

https://www.fia.com/...with_car_33.pdf

[Marklar]

Not possible by this appeal, as that is not part of the steward's decision. 

yes, but as something going forward?

 

If Red Bull win and the stewards decide the penalty wasn't harsh enough, what can they do?

Pretty sure they cant give Hamilton a extra time penalty. That's simply not possible anymore.

All that can happen are more penalty points (or less), or a exclusion. I'd say they have a mini chance to get him more penalty points (but the opposite is also possible) if they can prove via GPS that it was a reckless move rather than a simple racing incident with a bit more fautl on Lewis. For a exclusion, they need to hire hollywood scriptwriters.

[Kao18]

Don't understand why people are so wound up about this. Red Bull have a right to appeal and they make use of that right. They apparently think they have data to support their case. Let them, if they have no case nothing changes and they wasted some limited resources for the preperation of the appeal, and in the very unlikely event they have a case, they were damn right to appeal.

 

Its the usual suspects that are wound up about this mostly, the ones who had no problem with Mercedes attacks on Red Bulls rear wing and pit stop equipment(!) I am sure.

 

Good on RB on taking this a step further and giving Mercedes a taste of their own medicine