48 replies to this topic

[MJB5990]

If Lewis ducked into the pits?

How would the race then start?

[DaddyCool]

I was thinking about that as well

[PayasYouRace]

This thread is to discuss how the race would have restarted if the entire field had pitted after the formation lap. With one car on the grid, a “normal” start procedure could still be carried out. If nobody had gone to the grid, how would the restart be signalled?

 

 

Please do not sidetrack this thread with pointless speculation about how far ahead Lewis would have been. This isn’t the topic and such posts will be removed. Good question MJB5990.

[Ali_G]

Assume that Masi would have just turned out the lights at which point the pit lane would have opened.

[Laster]

Red lights would have gone and turned off in sequence like usual, and then the drivers would come racing out ofnthe pitlane.

[Fastcake]

I like my interpretation, that as the pit exit is only opened once the last car on the grid goes by, we’d be stuck in a loop of the starting lights going green while the pit exit remains red until the time limit is up as no car has gone past.

Ocon could have won his first race after sitting stationary in the pits for two hours.

[ExFlagMan]

I am not sure if the rule still applies, but IIRC at one time the rules stated that if no car crosses the finish line within a specified time period, the chequered flag should be displayed and the results declared as the point the cars last crossed the line. 

 

Not sure if this would mean that the results would be taken from the grid positions.

 

What I am pretty sure of is that there would have been a lot of dis-chuffed spectators....

Edited by ExFlagMan, 01 August 2021 - 16:23.

[Myrvold]

Not sure if this would mean that the results would be taken from the grid positions.

 

What I am pretty sure of is that there would have been a lot of dis-chuffed spectators....

 

Half-points or no-points then?

[Clatter]

I like my interpretation, that as the pit exit is only opened once the last car on the grid goes by, we’d be stuck in a loop of the starting lights going green while the pit exit remains red until the time limit is up as no car has gone past.

Ocon could have won his first race after sitting stationary in the pits for two hours.

 

They would have opened the pits after the medical car went past.

[noikeee]

We'd still be waiting for the first car to sail past the pitlane, and all the cars would still be there queueing waiting for the green light.

[Mishvili]

They would have opened the pits after the medical car went past.

That would be a bit dangerous...

[solochamp07]

Given the completely dry track, race control should have just called everyone in to pit for dry tires, and do another installation lap and standing start. Not complaining at all about how the race turned out though.

[genius83]

Would they not goes for another warm-up or formation lap as Safety Car would be deployed and then the next time around the whole grid will be lining up for a proper re-start of the race. Obviously, 1 lap would be deducted from the total lap count.

 

I like my interpretation, that as the pit exit is only opened once the last car on the grid goes by, we’d be stuck in a loop of the starting lights going green while the pit exit remains red until the time limit is up as no car has gone past.

Ocon could have won his first race after sitting stationary in the pits for two hours.

No, then it would be a race of endurance as sitting idle for 2 hours means these engines will go boom 1 by 1 and the last car to survive that will be the winner.

[PlatenGlass]

Assume that Masi would have just turned out the lights at which point the pit lane would have opened.

This seems logical. The pitlane opens as soon as all the cars that take the start have gone past (which would have been immediately as 0 out of 0 had gone past).

[PlatenGlass]

I am not sure if the rule still applies, but IIRC at one time the rules stated that if no car crosses the finish line within a specified time period, the chequered flag should be displayed and the results declared as the point the cars last crossed the line.

Not sure if this would mean that the results would be taken from the grid positions.

What I am pretty sure of is that there would have been a lot of dis-chuffed spectators....

What time period though? They would have got round in the amount of time it takes to do one lap.

[ANF]

I'm reading the regulations to see what would have happened, but I can't find the rules for race restarts from the pit lane. In fact, I think the regulations suggest that race restarts from the pit lane aren't allowed: "all cars, with the exception of those that were in their garage at the time the sprint qualifying session or the race was suspended (see Article 40.3), must return to the grid, take up their grid positions and follow the procedures...". Perhaps Mercedes should file a complaint and have everybody penalised!

But it honestly seems like the latest sporting regulations are a bit of a mess, because... there are no articles 36.10 or 36.15!

51) RESUMING A SPRINT QUALIFYING SESSION OR A RACE
51.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car a message “STANDING START” will be sent to all Competitors via the official messaging system, all FIA light panels will display “SS” and the car's orange lights will be extinguished. This will be the signal to the Competitors and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
 At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
 Once the safety car has entered the pit lane all cars, with the exception of those that were in their garage at the time the sprint qualifying session or the race was suspended (see Article 40.3), must return to the grid, take up their grid positions and follow the procedures set out in Articles 36.10 to 36.15.
 
(But maybe I'm missing something. I'm too tired to read every paragraph at the moment.)

Edited by ANF, 01 August 2021 - 17:00.

[ANF]

But it honestly seems like the latest sporting regulations are a bit of a mess, because... there are no articles 36.10 or 36.15!

I think it should say 38.9 to 38.11, 39.1 to 39.2, and 41.1. Phew.

[Mishvili]

Seems as if Hamilton will end up winning the race on two counts...

 

- Ocon (& vettel?) radio communications

- only one to follow post red flag start procedures!

[ExFlagMan]

And people wonder why they have to have lawyers on the stewards panel....

[pdac]

This seems logical. The pitlane opens as soon as all the cars that take the start have gone past (which would have been immediately as 0 out of 0 had gone past).

 

But no cars going past means that the last car has not gone past because, equally, no cars starting means that all cars are still behind the pit lane exit.

 

No, the only way to interpret this is that the pit lane light would have to remain red. Even if Masi decided to turn it green, someone could contest that decision.

 

Edit:

I take this back. I've had a quick scan of the sporting regs and I cannot see any mention of the pit lane light in relation to the start. All I can see is that cars cannot leave the pit lane whilst the red light is showing and that cars starting from the pit lane must wait until the field has passed before leaving. There is nothing that says the extinguishing of the red light is tied to the field passing. So I guess all that was required was for the pit lane exit to be opened and the race would start.

Edited by pdac, 01 August 2021 - 18:30.

[BRG]

Whatever would have happened would have been wrong in somebody's eyes (probably Helmut and Christian) so thank heavens Lewis saved the day!

[Physicist2]

Perhaps slightly off topic, but related: has the Technical Directive (011-17) been altered to allow tire change radio discussion during the formation lap? Last year Magnussen and Grosjean were penalized under that rule, and it was said that a change might be considered, but I can't find any mention of an announcement.

[FirstnameLastname]

Are red flag restart rules different to the regular start rules? Seems strange that they are allowed to jump in the pits to change tyres, especially as they had a free choice after the red flag. Nuts that nobody spotted that and went to the grid on slicks

[PlatenGlass]

Are red flag restart rules different to the regular start rules? Seems strange that they are allowed to jump in the pits to change tyres, especially as they had a free choice after the red flag. Nuts that nobody spotted that and went to the grid on slicks

Weirdly everyone went to the grid at last year's Hungarian GP on the wrong tyres as well.

[PayasYouRace]

Are red flag restart rules different to the regular start rules? Seems strange that they are allowed to jump in the pits to change tyres, especially as they had a free choice after the red flag. Nuts that nobody spotted that and went to the grid on slicks

I don’t think that’s any different to the starts. It’s what Winkelhock did at the Nurburgring in 2007. It’s just usually the case that one or two drivers take the gamble to start from the pits. Not everyone but one.

[Marklar]

 

"What would have happened, which it didn't, but basically once the last car was in pitlane, the start signal would have been initiated," Masi told RacingNews365.com and other select media.

"Then once that went off, the green light at pit exit would have come out and [it] would have been the order from pitlane exit."

On whether this will now have to made clear in the rules, Masi is open to considering the idea.

"It's something no-one could have really forseen," the race director said. "We'll let things calm down and have a chat about it in the light of day with all of the sporting directors.

"But, having spoken to some of them already, up and down [the paddock], some of them have already said, 'Was it really a bad thing?'"

https://racingnews36...rian-gp-restart

[Anderis]

 

"But, having spoken to some of them already, up and down [the paddock], some of them have already said, 'Was it really a bad thing?'"

2022: F1 set to try a new format that includes pit lane starts

[garoidb]

Would Lewis have been penalised if he jumped the start, or wasn't properly positioned in his slot? 

[pdac]

Would Lewis have been penalised if he jumped the start, or wasn't properly positioned in his slot? 

 

Another good question. I don't buy this "It's something no-one could have foreseen". Sure, it wouldn't pop into the heads of most people. But rule makers need to consider ALL possibilities. Someone should have foreseen this and also the situation that you bring up here. All that's needed is a proper description of the procedure. I'm not sure why there needs to be any discussion about whether or not to update the description in the rules. It's not like they are making any changes, they are just considering whether to commit to paper something that's already procedure in their heads (or, at least, in the head of the person in charge).

 

(or maybe the extra text might tip them over their carbon-neutral target)

Edited by pdac, 02 August 2021 - 11:34.

[Hrco42]

I'm on mobile so I can't quote (or don't know how to), but regarding the question would Lewis have been penalised if he jumped the start, I'm pretty sure the answer is yes. The fact he's alone on the grid doesn't mean the rules don't apply to him. Otherwise he wouldn't even had to wait for the red lights, he could have started immediately when he reached his position

[Ali_G]

What if Hamilton had a technical issue on the grid and couldn’t start. Assume red flag?

Edited by Ali_G, 02 August 2021 - 16:39.

[Clatter]

Would Lewis have been penalised if he jumped the start, or wasn't properly positioned in his slot? 

 

Don't see why not, neither offence requires reference to another car.

[ANF]

By the way, I noticed that Hamilton was listed in P13 when he crossed the control line at the end of lap 3. That was 15 seconds before the lights went out. Only Mazepin and Giovinazzi crossed the control line after Hamilton. Hamilton was back in the lead at the safety car line, so it might be a record for positions lost and regained by the leader of a grand prix!

[ClubmanGT]

"Something no one has really foreseen" in the sport where six cars took the start at the US GP in one of the most high-profile balls-ups in the history of modern sport?

[cjm321190]

Here is a question? If you were 8th and you followed Lewis to the grid. Do you line up 8th or 2nd.

I can imagine finding the right grid slot would be difficult.

[as65p]

Here is a question? If you were 8th and you followed Lewis to the grid. Do you line up 8th or 2nd.

I can imagine finding the right grid slot would be difficult.

Pretty sure you'd need to line up eight, similar to what they do if a car breaks down on the formation lap. And the team could indicate drivers correct position from the pit wall. So it should be no real problem.

 

PS: I keep thinking what a shame none of the guys at the back had the balls to start on slicks... Imagine Mazepin, Schumacher or Latifi leading the race in Ocons place....

Edited by as65p, 03 August 2021 - 08:36.

[FirstnameLastname]

Pretty sure you'd need to line up eight, similar to what they do if a car breaks down on the formation lap. And the team could indicate drivers correct position from the pit wall. So it should be no real problem.

PS: I keep thinking what a shame none of the guys at the back had the balls to start on slicks... Imagine Mazepin, Schumacher or Latifi leading the race in Ocons place....

I’m surprised none of them even rolled the dice and gambled tbh. Those are the days where the small teams can outfox the big guys.

Still amazed that not one person swapped to slicks during the red flag.

[Okyo]

Would have hoped for something similar to dividing by zero. WDC and WCC points going back to zero, race broadcasts going black around the world, Kimi having a nonalcoholic beer while grinning ear to ear while Bernie tries to retake the sport by locking the gates of the Hungaroring. Utter madness. 

[Clatter]

Here is a question? If you were 8th and you followed Lewis to the grid. Do you line up 8th or 2nd.

I can imagine finding the right grid slot would be difficult.

 

They would still have to start in their grid slot.

[Clatter]

Pretty sure you'd need to line up eight, similar to what they do if a car breaks down on the formation lap. And the team could indicate drivers correct position from the pit wall. So it should be no real problem.

 

PS: I keep thinking what a shame none of the guys at the back had the balls to start on slicks... Imagine Mazepin, Schumacher or Latifi leading the race in Ocons place....

 

The teams really were not on the ball to the changing conditions.

[PlatenGlass]

I think it was amazingly weird that no-one went to the grid on slicks. Especially in the second half of the field. Same as last year as well. It's like they lack ambition!

[HuddersfieldTerrier1986]

From memory there was minimal TV coverage of the majority of the track before they had to commit to their tyre choice, so unless they had multiple people all around the track feeding back their opinion, they didn't really have much chance to get an idea of whether slicks were right before going out, their only reference would've been maybe the pit straight, but for all they knew, the rest of the track could've been damp/wet.

That's my take on the lack of a gamble by anyone to go for slicks once they originally left the pitlane to go round for the restart.

[Clatter]

From memory there was minimal TV coverage of the majority of the track before they had to commit to their tyre choice, so unless they had multiple people all around the track feeding back their opinion, they didn't really have much chance to get an idea of whether slicks were right before going out, their only reference would've been maybe the pit straight, but for all they knew, the rest of the track could've been damp/wet.

That's my take on the lack of a gamble by anyone to go for slicks once they originally left the pitlane to go round for the restart.

 

They could have sent members of the crew out to take a look. I think none of them really took on board how much had changed.

[Dara]

The more correct question would be: what would have finished first? Bottas his Monaco pitstop or the Hungarian gp?

[teejay]

They could have sent members of the crew out to take a look. I think none of them really took on board how much had changed.

Most teams were busy prepping for restart.

Pitlane was still fairly slick hence the lack of gambling.

[pdac]

They could have sent members of the crew out to take a look. I think none of them really took on board how much had changed.

 

As always, if one of them had sent someone out, there would have been a flurry of activity from all of the other teams. They just follow each other (do the same as the others and you'll be no worse off).

[PlatenGlass]

Starting in the pitlane isn't much worse than starting from the back so it should have been a no-brainer for at least some of the rear half of the field. One car on slicks, one on inters if you want.

[solochamp07]

Here is a question? If you were 8th and you followed Lewis to the grid. Do you line up 8th or 2nd.

I can imagine finding the right grid slot would be difficult.

 

All cars line up where they qualified. USGP 2005:

 

[Clatter]

As always, if one of them had sent someone out, there would have been a flurry of activity from all of the other teams. They just follow each other (do the same as the others and you'll be no worse off).

 

Considering none of them appear to have even noticed the drying track, I reckon if just one team had been awake enough a team member could easily sneak out the back without anyone noticing.