113 replies to this topic

[AustinF1]

There's been plenty of talk re: Bottas's stunning 'Silver Bowling Ball' impression, but surprisingly little about Lance Stroll's bizarre choice at the same point. Sophie mentioned in the Bottas thread that it might make for an interesting discussion, so here we go, I guess.

 

 

That was a pretty strange choice, even for him, and even in the heat of the moment. He should have gone outside, not inside, especially once he realized he was having trouble stopping. Instead, he dove straight onto wet grass. Going outside, he had at least a slim chance of avoiding contact, or at least minimizing it.

 

What do you think?

 

 

[SophieB]

That angle makes its look like he’s using his car like a snow plough.

[FullOppositeLock]

Wow, first time I’ve seen that. That is absolutely pathetic driving. What the hell was he thinking going in hot like that? Another case of a far too lenient penalty, turn one or not.

[noikeee]

I think he decides to go on the inside and THEN realises he's gone too hot and there's too little grip.

 

I also wonder if there was some sort of puddle there as Bottas also lost it pretty much in the same strip of tarmac.

Edited by noikeee, 02 August 2021 - 16:01.

[eibyyz]

Not an excuse, and it was low-percentage, but:  Maybe he watched Jimmie Johnson and Bubba Wallace at Pocono.  Tire or brake disc blows, they went right to the grass on the inside of the turn.  Jimmie at least admitted it was the wrong thing to do and it was the wrong thing for STR to do.

 

STR was lucky he only took out only one other car--he could have whacked the rest of the field.

Edited by eibyyz, 02 August 2021 - 16:03.

[Risil]

A little too hopeful. Probably deserves the same penalty that Bottas got.

[AustinF1]

I think he decides to go on the inside and THEN realises he's gone too hot and there's too little grip.

Yeah, maybe. That had occurred to me as well, but my initial impression was that he dove right when he felt the car not slowing enough. Either way it's awful driving. 

[Diablobb81]

First turn it happens. Tried to avoid it but too little too late.

Why he wasn't given another 5 places for driving after the accident is a mystery.

[Hellenic tifosi]

Even when wet, tarmac has far more grip than grass. Total brainfade - much worse than Bottas.

Edited by Hellenic tifosi, 02 August 2021 - 16:08.

[pdac]

Whilst I would not want to go back to the old times, I think it's clear that drivers go in too hot now because they know that their legs aren't going to be crushed when it all goes wrong.

[jwill189]

Fortunately for Alpine and Ocon, he swerved right instead of going straight.

[AustinF1]

Whilst I would not want to go back to the old times, I think it's clear that drivers go in too hot now because they know that their legs aren't going to be crushed when it all goes wrong.

Yep, and because they know they can always take the paved runoff around the outside (which Stroll apparently forgot once he got to the decision point).

[BobbyRicky]

He straight-up slow-mo Grosjean'd LeGreg there.

[ensign14]

And after he's finished his demolition job he calmly takes his crippled car and has a little saunter back in the middle of the racing line while half the field has to dodge him.  He nearly took Alonso out.  That was pretty ropey.

[RekF1]

Looks like he was always going to hit something due to closing speed.I do think Perez and even LeClerc were irratic and unreasonably slow between themselves and maybe deserve a little heat.

[solochamp07]

In fairness, the onboard doesn't show it but Stroll had a car on his left (Sainz, I think) so that was not an option. Once locked up and sliding, he just kept moving away from the next car until he ran out of options. The initial misjudgment was a bad error, no question, but after that had happened there was little else he could do but keep trying to avoid the next car in his path.

[MikeTekRacing]

Looks like he was always going to hit something due to closing speed.I do think Perez and even LeClerc were irratic and unreasonably slow between themselves and maybe deserve a little heat.

say what?

[Myrvold]

Looks like he was always going to hit something due to closing speed.I do think Perez and even LeClerc were irratic and unreasonably slow between themselves and maybe deserve a little heat.

 

 

Sorry, but this was just too fitting. O:-)

Edited by Myrvold, 02 August 2021 - 17:33.

[HeadFirst]

In fairness, the onboard doesn't show it but Stroll had a car on his left (Sainz, I think) so that was not an option. Once locked up and sliding, he just kept moving away from the next car until he ran out of options. The initial misjudgment was a bad error, no question, but after that had happened there was little else he could do but keep trying to avoid the next car in his path.

 

I think you summed that up pretty well. Was Lance too optimistic about his chances in corner 1? Obviously. Lance has been very successful at getting good starts, and navigating the chaos of lap 1. He has also shown a particular talent for driving in the wet, which in this case put him ahead of his team-mate and several others. Unfortunately his optimism saw him arriving at the center of the action (and going far too fast), just as others we slowing to avoid the destruction initiated by Bottas' slow start and subsequent tail-ending of Norris. Everything after that was a failed attempt at avoiding contact. 

[Disgrace]

I think he decides to go on the inside and THEN realises he's gone too hot and there's too little grip.

 

I also wonder if there was some sort of puddle there as Bottas also lost it pretty much in the same strip of tarmac.

 

I am not sure he was even trying a move, just trying to avoid a crash. He successfully avoids Ocon but not Leclerc. Other than him and Bottas, Gasly quietly made the same mistake albeit on the outside and he sailed into the run-off without anybody noticing.

[AustinF1]

In fairness, the onboard doesn't show it but Stroll had a car on his left (Sainz, I think) so that was not an option. Once locked up and sliding, he just kept moving away from the next car until he ran out of options. The initial misjudgment was a bad error, no question, but after that had happened there was little else he could do but keep trying to avoid the next car in his path.

Just looked at the aerial shot. Stroll had room on his left all the way to the edge of the track. All the way up until Stroll moved right, he had Sainz just behind to his left, and Alonso ahead on his left, farther over toward the edge of the track. 

[ANF]

I think he simply braked too late or too little* in relation to the cars in front. I think Leclerc and Ocon reacted to the crash ahead and slowed down a little more than normal. With hindsight, Stroll should have gone to the outside (where Gasly and Alonso ended up off the track), but at the point where he would have had to make that decision, he had a wall of four cars ahead of him: Alonso level with Ocon and Ricciardo level with Leclerc.

Once he had gone to the right he couldn't do much to avoid a collision. It kind of looks like he wanted to go down the gap to the right of Leclerc, but then he saw the corner coming up and took to the grass to avoid him. Had he rear-ended Leclerc, Leclerc probably would have taken Ricciardo out the way Norris took Verstappen out.

* Could he perhaps have braked more efficiently? You tell me.

Anyway, here's a better video:

Edited by ANF, 02 August 2021 - 18:41.

[KWSN - DSM]

I can't really see why Stroll did much different than all the other drivers trying to avoid the Bottas mess, shot for an opening which closed on him - racing incident and nothing else.

 

You can temper with me being a Stroll apologist.

[ANF]

With hindsight, he should have taken to the grass earlier so he could skate across the empty track behind Hamilton with a pretty pirouette!

 

By the way, I still think standing starts in the wet is a bad idea.

[Chick0]

Looks like he was always going to hit something due to closing speed.I do think Perez and even LeClerc were irratic and unreasonably slow between themselves and maybe deserve a little heat.

 

Say again ?      

[Tenmantaylor]

There's been plenty of talk re: Bottas's stunning 'Silver Bowling Ball' impression, but surprisingly little about Lance Stroll's bizarre choice at the same point. Sophie mentioned in the Bottas thread that it might make for an interesting discussion, so here we go, I guess.

https://www.youtube....h?v=-5JWCi9yUnI

That was a pretty strange choice, even for him, and even in the heat of the moment. He should have gone outside, not inside, especially once he realized he was having trouble stopping. Instead, he dove straight onto wet grass. Going outside, he had at least a slim chance of avoiding contact, or at least minimizing it.

What do you think?

It's very easy to criticise when you can't feel what he is whilst driving.

After his initial input to the right he gets over steer, likely the rear slipping on the white line. This lost him enough grip and braking ability at a crucial moment which left him little choice. It was hit the closer car or try miss it and maybe not hit the further car. Once that slip happened he was beyond a limit where could avoid anyone.

Still his mistake but it was mostly the conditions and crossing the white line.

[derstatic]

This actually looks abit worse than Bottas. For Valtteri there is the (very minor) excuse that Norris cut in right ahead of him blocking his view of what's ahead. Stroll has a good view and is coming from very long way behind and brakes either too late or not enough. Seems to be braking about the same as Alonso, but Alonso is on the outside and aiming for a wide line so that's not really relevant. He's closing in on Ocon very fast in the braking zone. Tries to go to the inside to buy himself another 10-15 meters to stop the car but gets oversteer/rear lockup when he goes to the inside and that's it. I can see why it happens with the conditions and all, but 18 drivers got their braking right. Small mistakes from both Bottas and Stroll, but 100% their fault. Penalties deserved. 

[FormulaWin]

I think Stroll, like nearly all of the drivers knew that the best place to 'make hay' was the first half lap. If you can make places there, it's very hard for anyone without a RB or Merc to to get past - everyone wanted to be the last one the brakes, then the Bottas incident caused a very quick concertina effect - by this time Stroll was carrying too much momentum and no grip. He kept shuffling right in the hopes of avoiding the next car in front, but eventually ran out of room.

 

Many on this forum bemoaned the lack of randomness and overtakin action in years past. The flip side of such randomness is going to be situations like this where every miniscule error is going to multiplied a thousand fold.

Edited by FormulaWin, 02 August 2021 - 19:56.

[JHSingo]

By the way, I still think standing starts in the wet is a bad idea.

 

 

Umm...why?

[ANF]

I actually think taking to the grass like that might have worked in the dry.

Edited by ANF, 02 August 2021 - 21:45.

[DaddyCool]

Bottas and Stroll deserve every bit of ridicule the others throw at them. Bwaa haa it was a wet track - this is supposed to be the top of the motorsport not fooling around with your mates on the kart track.

[ANF]

Umm...why?

Because of the spray and because it's more difficult to judge the braking point and get the car stopped. Yes, it's exciting to watch, but you can have half the field taken out in turn 1, and then the rest of the race isn't very exciting at all.

[tom]

Reminded me a bit of JV trying a desperate lunge into the hairpin at a soaking wet montreal 2000, tried to pass about 3 cars and t-boned Ralf right on the apex.

Was never going to work. Points for trying i guess

[YamahaV10]

Wow, first time I’ve seen that. That is absolutely pathetic driving. What the hell was he thinking going in hot like that? Another case of a far too lenient penalty, turn one or not.

I think he was trying to pull a Perez. See chaos and try and gain some track position in the middle of it.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=R3FItS3jGEw

[KnucklesAgain]

That was a pretty strange choice, even for him, and even in the heat of the moment. He should have gone outside, not inside, especially once he realized he was having trouble stopping. Instead, he dove straight onto wet grass. Going outside, he had at least a slim chance of avoiding contact, or at least minimizing it.
 
What do you think?

I think he was always going to run into someone. The Alpine was closer, so he sucessfully avoided that one, and the additional space to the Ferrari seemed to make sense for a split second, but then he was still too fast and saw that he'd collect Leclerc too, so had steered even farther right and finally lost it completely on the kerb
 
This:
 

In fairness, the onboard doesn't show it but Stroll had a car on his left (Sainz, I think) so that was not an option. Once locked up and sliding, he just kept moving away from the next car until he ran out of options. The initial misjudgment was a bad error, no question, but after that had happened there was little else he could do but keep trying to avoid the next car in his path.

Edited by KnucklesAgain, 02 August 2021 - 21:45.

[pacificquay]

Even when wet, tarmac has far more grip than grass. Total brainfade - much worse than Bottas.

It’s not worse than Bottas.

 

Bottas took out Lando Norris which is unforgivable.

 

Stroll took out Leclerc which was very welcome given Norris was out. Just a pity he hit Ricciardo too.

[RekF1]

Say again ?      

I'm tempted to copy and paste, but Perez did drift at a bad time if you're Bottas. Nothing intentional obviously.

If everyone wants retrospective penalties then maybe we need to hire a psychologist to find out if any drivers have daddy issues. Maybe one of them bought a Dreamcast and doesn't understand the world. that for of psychological defeat of hard to overcome. Imagine buying a Dreamcast with twice the Bit as the nearest competitor and having no games to play on it...

Glad to clear any confusion

[mclarensmps]

It’s not worse than Bottas.

 

Bottas took out Lando Norris which is unforgivable.

 

Stroll took out Leclerc which was very welcome given Norris was out. Just a pity he hit Ricciardo too.

It's orders of magnitude worse than Bottas. He took to the grass in the wet, and instead of rear ending, he was going to T-bone whomever was taking the corner. He climbed the sidepod and hit the side structure of the halo. 

 

[ForzaFormula]

It's orders of magnitude worse than Bottas. He took to the grass in the wet, and instead of rear ending, he was going to T-bone whomever was taking the corner. He climbed the sidepod and hit the side structure of the halo. 

 

 

Exactly how anyone can say its even comparable to Bottas is bizarre, Stroll is lucky he didn't take out even more cars, he was rally crossing of the track.

[solochamp07]

Just looked at the aerial shot. Stroll had room on his left all the way to the edge of the track. All the way up until Stroll moved right, he had Sainz just behind to his left, and Alonso ahead on his left, farther over toward the edge of the track. 

 

Maybe. I rewatched the start from the heli, looks to me like there's a gap for a moment but Sainz quickly fills it. Couldn't mentally synchronize with the OP video to see when the gap was, wasn't there. I can't disprove your theory but I'll say this, who knows what Stroll's exact knowledge was at that moment or what he could see in his mirrors? Visibility wasn't great (bring back V10s, moot point  ) and swerving to the outside could have seemed perilous to him, even if it was clear at that moment - he would have had to swerve hard around both Alpines, or clatter in to them. Rewatch the onboard in real time, and see how little time there is to make these irreversible decisions.

 

To Lance's hypercritic's: I'm sympathetic to Stroll and on this occasion in particular because I used to race karts decades ago and have oft been both hammer and nail in similar incidents - especially wet race starts. The innocents always moan and curse at the instant (myself very much included!) amd understandably so, but they've all slid off the track themselves with varying degrees of consequence. I think Stroll is a handy little driver and has shown his class on more than one occasion. Lots to learn, yes but he's still a kid. I believe his peers all agree he is worthy of a place on the grid, even Charles.

 

Edit: the second paragraph should have separately addressed those posters calling for Stroll to be turfed, of which AustinF1 is not to my knowledge. Poorly worded on my part and now fixed, apologies.

Edited by solochamp07, 03 August 2021 - 01:39.

[ARTGP]

Because of the spray and because it's more difficult to judge the braking point and get the car stopped. Yes, it's exciting to watch, but you can have half the field taken out in turn 1, and then the rest of the race isn't very exciting at all.

 

  I don't see the problem with wet standing starts. It always comes down to a drivers application of the brake pedal. If you can't see, brake early. If you have no grip, brake early. Every driver has a brake pedal. You don't get carpet blanche to miss youe braking point because it's wet. If you can't figure it out, brake very early.  As soon as you take it too hot, you are responsible for being too aggressive in wet conditions because there is always the option to brake earlier.

Edited by ARTGP, 03 August 2021 - 01:34.

[solochamp07]

I actually think taking to the grass like that might have worked in the dry.

 

True but then, so would braking harder work in the dry.

[solochamp07]

Because of the spray and because it's more difficult to judge the braking point and get the car stopped. Yes, it's exciting to watch, but you can have half the field taken out in turn 1, and then the rest of the race isn't very exciting at all.

 

Lol, did you see the race on Sunday?

[CoolBreeze]

Is he penalized too?

 

Another dude who has no place in F1. 

[solochamp07]

Is he penalized too?
 
Another dude who has no place in F1.

He is penalized and rightfully so. Your last bit is unduly harsh. Is that you in your avatar? Have you never arrived at a wet braking zone too optimistic? I’ve ridden on board with all the drivers on the f1tv app (LOVE that thing) and in my worthless opinion Lance is more than good enough to be there. He’s quick and he’s smart, just not so mature yet. Arguably he was rushed in too early, not his fault and what kid would refuse that shot? He will learn from this own goal. What mistakes has he made twice? You don’t get pole at turkey in the wet by fluke. Give him another two years before you give up on him. Remember how Ocon was rated not three weeks ago?

[Dmitriy_Guller]

I think it's a fairly common instinct to try to cut the corner on the inside when your car isn't slowing down quickly enough for whatever reason.  Intellectually it seems obvious that you're either going to spear the cars you're trying to avoid anyway, or you're going to smash the wall that much harder if your predicament is due to lost brakes, but in the moment your instinct tells you to do something different, because doing nothing is guaranteeing a crash.  I've done it in sim racing a couple of times myself when I messed up my braking, and I always felt stupid afterwards.

[mclarensmps]

I think it's a fairly common instinct to try to cut the corner on the inside when your car isn't slowing down quickly enough for whatever reason.  Intellectually it seems obvious that you're either going to spear the cars you're trying to avoid anyway, or you're going to smash the wall that much harder if your predicament is due to lost brakes, but in the moment your instinct tells you to do something different, because doing nothing is guaranteeing a crash.  I've done it in sim racing a couple of times myself when I messed up my braking, and I always felt stupid afterwards.

 

What he needed was for Toto to email him a diagram 

[HP]

By all the things going it seemed to me drivers are not used to start in the wet anymore.

 

At least for Stroll I can see why he choose this line. The outcome was bad of course,nBut there was no space to his left, but still had misjudged the ability to slow down his car fast enough.

 

In contrast, Bottas seemed to be asleep. Hanging onto the bumber of the car ahead, and then just sliding into Norris car as Lando started to slow down that was truly pathetic.

Edited by HP, 03 August 2021 - 05:57.

[Rediscoveryx]

Not the best bit of driving, but in his defence he is mid-pack approaching a first corner in the wet where visibility is less than ideal, where grip levels are unknown and then the Bottas incident triggers diificult-to-predict reactions from the drivers just ahead of him.

Once he makes the decision to cut right it’s pretty much over.

Edited by Rediscoveryx, 03 August 2021 - 06:09.

[CoolBreeze]

He is penalized and rightfully so. Your last bit is unduly harsh. Is that you in your avatar? Have you never arrived at a wet braking zone too optimistic? I’ve ridden on board with all the drivers on the f1tv app (LOVE that thing) and in my worthless opinion Lance is more than good enough to be there. He’s quick and he’s smart, just not so mature yet. Arguably he was rushed in too early, not his fault and what kid would refuse that shot? He will learn from this own goal. What mistakes has he made twice? You don’t get pole at turkey in the wet by fluke. Give him another two years before you give up on him. Remember how Ocon was rated not three weeks ago?

 

My apologies if i indeed sounded harsh. Just pissed at the Bottas-Merc incident. I didn't really knew he was penalized too, wasn't really following it. 

 

That's actually MS in my avatar, 1999 in Sepang. Yes, i race karts often and many times in the wet. I agree sh#t happens.