302 replies to this topic

[statman]

Was thinking to start a new topic or not. But given the Ferrari engine story and subsequent drama that unfolded, always a good idea to open a topic

 

Anyway, German publication AMUS has come up with an article that seem to suggest that both Honda and Mercedes are involved in engine developments that operate in the grey areas. And some rumors going around in the paddock.

 

Of course nothing new that engine manufacturers are looking for ways to improve but it's quite interesting because of the discussion on this forum about engine power recently.

 

I've translated some relevant parts in English:

 

The engine duel between Mercedes and Honda goes back and forth.

 

Spoiler

 

As in Silverstone, Mercedes suddenly dominated the straights again. On Friday with up to half a second and five km / h at top speed.

In England the difference on the power sections was even bigger. Red Bull then reacted at the Hungaroring with a smaller rear wing from Saturday, but that only resulted in a tie. That only allowed one conclusion: Mercedes overtook Honda again in Power-Play.

 

But how are such jumps possible with a frozen engine development? How can you fall from one extreme to the other from one race to the next? Red Bull maintains stiffly: "We are driving the same power as in France and Austria. Mercedes has gained performance." That is denied by the opponent. "We have the feeling that Honda has taken a step backwards. Everything is exhausted with our engine."

 

These are the official statements. Between the lines, the two title rivals and their allies sprinkle stories that are supposed to explain the puzzling turnaround in the power duel. There is probably a bit of truth in both versions that are circulating through the paddock. But it is difficult to determine from the outside how much poetry, wishful thinking or politics is involved.

 

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly, there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.

 

When asked, the FIA ​​did not know anything about a measure against Honda. Which doesn't have to mean a lot. Corrections to the engine are usually not made public. The technicians of the association discuss this directly with the relevant manufacturer. Not even the competition finds out about it.

 

Another explanation comes from the orbit of Red Bull. Ferrari should also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. So you can cool down the plenary session with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

 

Systematic cooling of the plenary would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it says from the Red Bull warehouse.

 

People became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power, which ultimately led to the accident. Mercedes explained this with the fact that the Honda drive had always switched to charging mode at this point. The defending champion denies the accusation of increased performance via any cooling measures.

 

https://www.auto-mot...leich-leistung/

Edited by statman, 03 August 2021 - 11:26.

[Risil]

Shenanigan watch!

 

Also thanks for the translation Statman

[Dhillon]

Basically FIA has created regulation which are too complicated and almost impossible to police.

[FLB]

Well, we need something to speculate on and keep us occupied during the summer break, don't we?

[noikeee]

Ohhhhh, this is classic F1. And just what we needed in a summer break when it looked like the controversies after controversies were starting to cool down.

[P123]

I thought the previous claim from RB was that nothing had changed, Honda hadn't caught up and it was only down to rear wing settings.  I'm sure I also read a theory somewhere that the new tyre construction brought in from Silverstone was benefiting the rear end of the Merc, allowing them to adopt a skinnier wing.

 

So... Honda being slowed due to some previous now disallowed trickery, and Merc with some of their own.  I'm sure we'll hear more.

Edited by P123, 03 August 2021 - 11:31.

[TomNokoe]

This is surely too complicated an issue to analyse based on mere GPS data?

There are too many factors involved: drag levels, bendy wings, energy management, software, cooling, ambient temperatures, altitude, endurance management for long-life parts.

 

edit: I forgot a big one, fuel!

Edited by TomNokoe, 03 August 2021 - 11:53.

[GlenWatkins]

I wonder how much cooler the air in the plenum would need to be to get that much of a performance gain?

[F1 Mike]

Also the advances in oil technology can have an effect on engine performance and optimisation. Less viscosity whilst at the same time bringing less friction & wear

[SCUDmissile]

Mercedes cheating engine is it?

[yolo]

Mercedes cheating engine is it?

 

If abusing a "grey" area is cheating, then does that mean Ferrari cheated throughout 2019? 

[SCUDmissile]

If abusing a "grey" area is cheating, then does that mean Ferrari cheated throughout 2019?

Apparently...

[OneAndOnly]

Actually noone knows if any of this is true. If it is, it doesn't mean Mercedes is cheating. Formula 1 is about exploiting grey areas.

Anyway this makes summer break much more fun.

[smitten]

If either team had anything on the other, I'm quite clear we'd be getting not very veiled references to it at every opportunity.

[Dhillon]

RB did loose the top speed advantage in the last two races so either Mercedes gained or Honda lost.

[Garndell]

We need Ted back in the pitlane to tell us what car smells of what fruit when they start up.  If Red Bull have been "held back" could it be the makeup related secret fuel additive?

[AnR]

If either team had anything on the other, I'm quite clear we'd be getting not very veiled references to it at every opportunity.

 

Everything starts at a point, Merc certainly turned everything around at Silverstone, not just Max car, but also straight line speed, this might get interesting

Edited by AnR, 03 August 2021 - 12:30.

[Marklar]

Honda suddenly gained, then Merc suddenly gained. There is only one conclusion here: Both cheated! Exclude them both! 

[Baddoer]

So Aston Martin thinks there is a fuel according to offical FIA sensor data. But in reality there is no fuel in the tank. Not sure what to think...

Edited by Baddoer, 03 August 2021 - 12:38.

[FastnLoud]

Redbull suddenly needing to take loads of rear downforce off to try and compensate for the straightline speed. Who would have thought 😂. Looks like they have been up to no good.

[Requiem84]

If either team had anything on the other, I'm quite clear we'd be getting not very veiled references to it at every opportunity.

 

We did have these references for a while - I think it was Toto saying something along the lines that Honda had more power after their update in France. And Hamilton alluding to RB's straightline speed a few times in Austria.

 

As of Silverstone it has been quiet, so perhaps Honda indeed has been doing something they were asked to stop doing by the FIA. 

 

Hamilton's run on Verstappen into Copse was impressive, but the RB obviously had a lot more RW and as always, teams can play with the ERS delivery etc, so that doesn't mean much to me in isolation. 

[MJB5990]

Surely it's wing related.

[pdac]

I'm past caring about all these "they must be doing this" and "they must be doing that" arguments in F1. Everyone is up to no good as far as I can tell. No team has any sporting integrity and will cheat at the slightest opportunity, if they think they can get away with it. The FIA is also complicit in the way they write vague rules - I do believe the FIA actually want teams to cheat.

Edited by pdac, 03 August 2021 - 12:52.

[OO7]

Everything starts at a point, Merc certainly turned everything around at Silverstone, not just Max car, but also straight line speed, this might get interesting

Merc using that Red Bull line..."We ran smaller rear wings in Silverstone".

 

Anyway I think the rules regarding plenum intake temps were revised a couple of years ago to prevent/limit that form of charge/intake cooling.  Let's see how and if this develops further.

Edited by OO7, 03 August 2021 - 13:05.

[OO7]

So Aston Martin thinks there is a fuel according to offical FIA sensor data. But in reality there is no fuel in the tank. Not sure what to think...

Wrong thread.

[chrcol]

The article doesnt address that merc had excess wing causing drag before silverstone.

[Fastcake]

It would be shocking if they weren’t exploiting a grey area in the regulations.

[OO7]

For anyone interested, the following is the relevant article from the 2021 F1 Technical Regulations:

 

5.6.8 Engine plenum (as defined in line 4 of Appendix 2 to these regulations) air temperature must be more than ten degrees centigrade above ambient temperature. When assessing compliance, the temperature of the air will be the lap average recorded by an FIA approved and sealed sensor located in an FIA approved location situated in the engine plenum, during every lap of the qualifying practice session and the race. The first lap of the race, laps carried out whilst the safety car is deployed, laps with a time at least 20% greater than the fastest lap of the session, pit in and out laps and any laps that are obvious anomalies (as judged by the technical delegate) will not be used to assess the average temperature. The ambient temperature will be that recorded by the FIA appointed weather service provider. This information will also be displayed on the timing monitors.

[peroa]

Redbull suddenly needing to take loads of rear downforce off to try and compensate for the straightline speed. Who would have thought 😂. Looks like they have been up to no good.

RBR had to take the lower DF rear wing cause they apparently maxed out the front wing and couldn’t get rid of understeer which they had been complaining since Silverstone with the introduction of the new rear tyres.

It’s more likely that the new merc package and new pirelli’s make it possible to use less rear wing and have cured some of the issues merc had while at the same time RBR’s until then perfect downforce/drag setup has been disturbed by the new tyres.

Even in Silverstone Max had tyre issues in the sprint race which could’ve appeared even more pronounced in the main race.

Edited by peroa, 03 August 2021 - 13:39.

[Goron3]

Redbull suddenly needing to take loads of rear downforce off to try and compensate for the straightline speed. Who would have thought . Looks like they have been up to no good.

You forgot to read the article didn't you. The team that are allegedly doing something shady is Mercedes, not Red Bull. It's literally written above.

 

Red Bull took rear wing off at Hungary to help solve the understeer problem (they still ran maximum front wing angle). Top speed isn't an issue in Budapest as it's got low power sensitivity.

 

007 - Thanks for posting that regulation. I can honestly say I have zero understanding of what it means 

Edited by Goron3, 03 August 2021 - 13:51.

[OO7]

007 - Thanks for posting that regulation. I can honestly say I have zero understanding of what it means 

Basically the temperature of the air inside the plenum chamber/(airbox) must be greater than 10 degree above the outside air temperature.  Due to variations that can occur in plenum chamber air temperature and external air temperature, an average temp will be recorded.

Edited by OO7, 03 August 2021 - 14:07.

[Marklar]

You forgot to read the article didn't you. The team that are allegedly doing something shady is Mercedes, not Red Bull. It's literally written above.

 

Eh, no.

The article presents two theories: one is that Mercedes is up to something borderline (or well, not) legal, the other is that Honda did something borderline with their energy management and were slowed down by a TD. The difference is that other teams have more concrete theories for the former.

Pretty much open that one: I think both may be true, which is what Michael Schmidt appears to think too.

[Pimpwerx]

I have a few questions:
 

1. How has Merc's performance changed versus other Merc runners like AM and McL in both the acceleration zones, and speed traps in the races in question? If there is something shady at play, it will be done by 1 team, not a feature of the design the customers also run.

 

2. Did the perceived changes in performance also coincide with the changes made to the tires? If so, that makes the analysis incredibly difficult to do. As already noted, RB seems to have changed their aero balance to accommodate changes in grip due to the new tire construction. Merc could likewise have changed their aero balance if they're benefitting from the tires.

 

3. What is the sensor configuration like for the plenum, if the article is on to something? I mean, how are you spoofing a temp sensor? Also, how are you cooling anything long enough to even get 1 lap out of it. With the temperatures the engines run at, that intake charge has to be above ambient before you even get through your outlap, right? Regardless, if intake temps are regulated, it would stand to reason that there are multiple probes on the engine. I don't see how you spoof hot temps, but that's why I'm not an F1 engineer.

 

Intriguing, but I'm waiting for more than slow news day journos to start fanning these flames. The Ferrari rumors had more meat than this. We could see it in the telemetry traces.

[as65p]

Honda suddenly gained, then Merc suddenly gained. There is only one conclusion here: Both cheated! Exclude them both! 

Well, Hondas explanation to not have run full power at the start of the season and then gained the "measured" 15HP more when they did, does at least make sense.

 

That's not to say it must be true, of course. They are all on it al the time, trying to explore loopholes on the edge of cheating and often enough crossing it to become plain cheating.

 

I always find it mildly amusing when some fans genuinely believe "their" team would never do it... wake up, folks!

[Requiem84]

The Ferrari rumors also started slowly. 

 

It took a while before we got to the point there were reports about GPS traces of their acceleration etc. 

[teejay]

Is this why RBR are frantically cooling their engines on the grid with dry ice?

[HP]

Eh, no.

The article presents two theories: one is that Mercedes is up to something borderline (or well, not) legal, the other is that Honda did something borderline with their energy management and were slowed down by a TD. The difference is that other teams have more concrete theories for the former.

Pretty much open that one: I think both may be true, which is what Michael Schmidt appears to think too.

Both teams are doing something to gain the upper hand. How far it is legal that is an entire different issue. And I doubt we'll ever know. Remember the deal Ferrari made with the FIA? Jean Todt was unhappy that the FIA legally couldn't disclose more of what went on.

 

Which seemingly means that the FIA has digged themselves somewhere into a hole that probably still exists and will be used by other teams as well.

 

Probably a lot of questions, speculations and accusations ahead of us with few real answers awaiting.

[as65p]

Intriguing, but I'm waiting for more than slow news day journos to start fanning these flames. The Ferrari rumors had more meat than this. We could see it in the telemetry traces.

 

I bet you can see this too in the telemetry, I mean if suddenly Honda gets faster on every straight (still fondly remember Lewis cries in Austria "the straights, the straights, there is something happening on the straights!" ) and then suddenly Mercedes turns it around completely, there is no way the telemetry is not showing that.

[kumo7]

Was thinking to start a new topic or not. But given the Ferrari engine story and subsequent drama that unfolded, always a good idea to open a topic

 

Anyway, German publication AMUS has come up with an article that seem to suggest that both Honda and Mercedes are involved in engine developments that operate in the grey areas. And some rumors going around in the paddock.

 

Of course nothing new that engine manufacturers are looking for ways to improve but it's quite interesting because of the discussion on this forum about engine power recently.

 

I've translated some relevant parts in English:

 

The engine duel between Mercedes and Honda goes back and forth.

 

Spoiler

 

As in Silverstone, Mercedes suddenly dominated the straights again. On Friday with up to half a second and five km / h at top speed.

In England the difference on the power sections was even bigger. Red Bull then reacted at the Hungaroring with a smaller rear wing from Saturday, but that only resulted in a tie. That only allowed one conclusion: Mercedes overtook Honda again in Power-Play.

 

But how are such jumps possible with a frozen engine development? How can you fall from one extreme to the other from one race to the next? Red Bull maintains stiffly: "We are driving the same power as in France and Austria. Mercedes has gained performance." That is denied by the opponent. "We have the feeling that Honda has taken a step backwards. Everything is exhausted with our engine."

 

These are the official statements. Between the lines, the two title rivals and their allies sprinkle stories that are supposed to explain the puzzling turnaround in the power duel. There is probably a bit of truth in both versions that are circulating through the paddock. But it is difficult to determine from the outside how much poetry, wishful thinking or politics is involved.

 

From the Mercedes corner you can hear that Honda has been slowed down by a directive of the FIA. Allegedly, there has been a disagreement about how the Japanese operate their energy management for four months.

 

When asked, the FIA ​​did not know anything about a measure against Honda. Which doesn't have to mean a lot. Corrections to the engine are usually not made public. The technicians of the association discuss this directly with the relevant manufacturer. Not even the competition finds out about it.

 

Another explanation comes from the orbit of Red Bull. Ferrari should also be on the trail of this theory. Allegedly, Mercedes cools the air collector (plenum) in certain phases in order to have more power available. Before a qualifying round or the start of the race, this would be allowed, but only with archaic methods. So you can cool down the plenary session with dry ice. But the effect evaporates relatively quickly.

 

Systematic cooling of the plenary would at least be a gray area or not allowed at all. "Especially if you support the cooler air in the collector for a short time by injecting more gasoline," it says from the Red Bull warehouse.

 

People became suspicious when Lewis Hamilton caught up with Verstappen every time before the Copse corner at Silverstone with a considerable excess of power, which ultimately led to the accident. Mercedes explained this with the fact that the Honda drive had always switched to charging mode at this point. The defending champion denies the accusation of increased performance via any cooling measures.

 

https://www.auto-mot...leich-leistung/

 

Good topic. 

I have full joy of reading especially with your avatar! 

 

 

Yeeees,... everthing is in the gray zone....

[Pimpwerx]

I bet you can see this too in the telemetry, I mean if suddenly Honda gets faster on every straight (still fondly remember Lewis cries in Austria "the straights, the straights, there is something happening on the straights!" ) and then suddenly Mercedes turns it around completely, there is no way the telemetry is not showing that.

Agreed. I'm awaiting some bore Redditor generating plots for various sessions over the time period in question. The summer break provides ample time for fans to dig into conspiracies. I know I'm intrigued. I don't like the idea of cheating. Loopholes are one thing. Out and out cheating is another. Failing to meet a stated temperature floor would fall into the realm of cheating IMO.

[OO7]

3. What is the sensor configuration like for the plenum, if the article is on to something? I mean, how are you spoofing a temp sensor? Also, how are you cooling anything long enough to even get 1 lap out of it. With the temperatures the engines run at, that intake charge has to be above ambient before you even get through your outlap, right? Regardless, if intake temps are regulated, it would stand to reason that there are multiple probes on the engine. I don't see how you spoof hot temps, but that's why I'm not an F1 engineer.

The plenum could act like a cooler, so air passing through it is cooled in a similar fashion to how the radiators cool water.  The cooling can be scheduled in a manner where for part of the lap the plenum temps are x degrees below ambient + 10 and the other part of the lap x degrees above ambient + 10.  The result would be an average temp that's greater than ambient + 10 degrees.

 

EDIT:

The plenum wouldn't even have to do any cooling, it could all be done via the intercooler.

Edited by OO7, 03 August 2021 - 14:45.

[gillesfan76]

I always find it mildly amusing when some fans genuinely believe "their" team would never do it... wake up, folks!

 

Is this strawman argument or is there any particular team’s supporter who genuinely believes their team would never do it?

 

Hands up if you genuinely think your team would never do it!

 

I bet we hear crickets and see a strawman waving around lonesome in the wind….

[as65p]

Is this strawman argument or is there any particular team’s supporter who genuinely believes their team would never do it?

 

Hands up if you genuinely think your team would never do it!

 

I bet we hear crickets and see a strawman waving around lonesome in the wind….

I bet you're wrong.

[Pimpwerx]

The plenum could act like a cooler, so air passing through it is cooled in a similar fashion to how the radiators cool water.  The cooling can be scheduled in a manner where for part of the lap the plenum temps are x degrees below ambient + 10 and the other part of the lap x degrees above ambient + 10.  The result would be an average temp that's greater than ambient + 10 degrees.

 

EDIT:

The plenum wouldn't even have to do any cooling, it could all be done via the intercooler.

That's the thing though. An intercooler is supposed to do exactly that, cool the intake charge. However, I wasn't aware intercoolers could get a compressed intake charge down close to ambient. If so, I don't know why the FIA would regulate the intake temp, and not regulate the size of intercoolers, in order to control how much they could cool the air on the compressor side. I assumed that regulation was in place to prevent unnatural (as in not part of the normal intake cycle) cooling of the air being fed into the engine. IIRC, that regulation is less than a handful of years old, and we haven't seen anyone run afoul of it. I assumed that was because the FIA simply started to monitor the temperature of the intake charge, which is pretty basic. Put a temperature sensor at different places in the plenum, and it should be able to pickup on any unusual fluctuations. 

 

5.6.8 seems to suggest that it's taking the average over hot laps in qualies and the race. Opening laps are an exception where I can see them exploiting a trick, but just on straights? The article implies that this wasn't a one-lap kind of advantage, but that Merc has seen sustained performance over the full course of the race. So being able to run cool on the straights, but then equally hot through the corners seems like a very complicated system to implement through intercooler and plenum design. And even with that, the FIA would be able to see this very rhythmic behavior in the sensor readings. Even if they only judge compliance on the lap average, that sensor is still taking temperature readings at much more frequent intervals. I don't think you'd need to be a technical wizard to be able to figure out if a system was properly in compliance with the amount of data the FIA should have access to.

 

It differs from what Ferrari was accused of last year, because they were said to actually spoof the sensor. That's why my first thought is that Merc is spoofing the sensor, because otherwise any trickery should make itself abundantly clear in the data being generated by the FIA sensor. I can't wrap my head around it. Not that I think I'm right, I just can't make heads or tails of how it would be done.

 

I'm interested to see what telemetry plots show. Did RB only lose ground to Merc, or did they lose ground to everyone else? Did Merc only gain ground on RB, or did they also gain on their customer teams too? Just gotta wait and see, I guess.

[Goron3]

Yeah this feels different to Ferrari, where they actively worked out a way to get around the legality check for the rules. Ferrari's exploited a grey area in the check, not the rule itself.

 

This sounds random but is there a chance that Red Bull's Mercedes recruits could give them this kind of info? Are they on gardening leave yet?

[Winterapfel]

I really don't like these kind of things... How can you honestly appreciate great performances on track with all kinds of hidden crap going on!!

I keep coming back to the idea of fully open scrutineering. At the end of the race the top three cars are dismantled, full open technical investigation, both hardware and software.

[pdac]

I really don't like these kind of things... How can you honestly appreciate great performances on track with all kinds of hidden crap going on!!

I keep coming back to the idea of fully open scrutineering. At the end of the race the top three cars are dismantled, full open technical investigation, both hardware and software.

 

It's the same as performance enhancing drugs in athletics - you know they are all up to it to a certain extent, but you just accept what you see in front of you as being a great performance and leave it at that.

 

The great performance is still evident - it's just that it might not have been a win without the 'extra assistance' (assuming that others were also getting that 'extra assistance')

Edited by pdac, 03 August 2021 - 16:10.

[vlado]

RB did loose the top speed advantage in the last two races so either Mercedes gained or Honda lost.

 

Sound logic. 

[Baddoer]

Wrong thread.

You sure? What if they both right?

[timmy bolt]

I always find it mildly amusing when some fans genuinely believe "their" team would never do it... wake up, folks!

Although I would def think Merc would bend the rules a bit, they have had a strong power unit for years and often when that is the case you wouldn't push the legality angle as you don't need to, just keep developing, marginal gains.

On the other hand, Honda has made massive strides to get to a point where by all accounts they are as powerful and possibly as reliable (tbc) as the Merc in a much shorter space of time. Fair play to them if they have done it but naturally it would raise more alarm bells more than Merc.

Could be completely wrong of course, but I'm just talking likelihood.