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Racer.com: Andretti pursuing Formula 1 team takeover


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#851 taran

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Posted 12 November 2021 - 13:23

I don't see the relevance to Lawrence Stroll and Racing Point. And it is disingenuous to say the car was found illegal. It was examined and found to be legal. Only part way through the season when someone from a rival team with inside knowledge decided to stir the pot were the brake ducts eventually found to be suspect in how they'd been developed. 

 

Not to drag up this issue even further but surely you are not suggesting the car was legal just because the incompetent FIA didn't find the illegal parts until told where to look?

 

And do you really believe Tracing Point managed to reverse engineer a complete Mercedes just from pictures of the car? Without Mercedes screaming bloody murder?

 

Obviously Mercedes gave or sold the blueprints to Stroll including the brakes which ultimately proved to be Stroll's 'Capone tax evasion' moment....
 



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#852 New Britain

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Posted 12 November 2021 - 13:53

Have you considered the possibility that Sauber’s current owners have kept all relevant stakeholders (such as Alfa Romeo, Ferrari and FOM) in the picture all along - but do not want to get into a public debate about this ? And indeed, why should they ?

Media reporting so far appears to be nearly exclusively based on leaks from the Andretti camp; maybe people just don’t want to talk about this in public, just to satisfy journalists or people like us.

Yes, it is possible that Sauber's current owners kept the relevant stakeholders in the loop, but the stakeholders you mention - Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, and FOM - are themselves some of the most image-conscious organisations in the world. Would they be indifferent to their image being sullied by association if Michael Andretti were lying about what the owners of Sauber - the important Alfa and Ferrari client and FOM participant - had done?

 

One does not know why Michael Andretti would have invented the bit about 'changes at the 11th hour' if that had not happened. He could simply have said, 'We tried our best but in the end could not agree on the details', if in fact there had not been an 11th hour change of stance.

 

So he has made a claim which he had no obvious reason to create out of thin air and which is entirely believable, and the other side have said nothing.

Sure, one can imagine scenarios in which Andretti is lying and the owners acted in good faith throughout. The only problem with such scenarios is that, so far, there is zero evidence to support them, or even to suggest them. It is left to members here to imagine them.



#853 absinthedude

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Posted 12 November 2021 - 14:01

I see the logic in those rumors, but riddle me this:  Where would Andretti find the technical talent pool to dip into to replace 'alot ' of the Sauber staff with?  And if he did find replacements, move them all to Switzerland?

 

That's why I was sceptical at the time, but the pieces of the jigsaw fit. So there may have been some truth in it all along. As only one party has given any indication of what happened, we may never know. Longbow has always been a quiet partner, not prone to publicity themselves. 

 

From a chronological point of view, in terms of what appeared in the media (which I accept is never going to be the full picture)....Andretti approached Longbow....we hear a deal is nearly done, ready to be signed....we hear an announcement will be made at the USGP and that Colton Herta may drive in free practise with a view to racing in the future.....then we hear there may be a stumbling block....we also hear rumours that Andretti might want to replace a lot of the technical staff....Michael Andretti personally flies to the Longbow people to talk.....we hear nothing much over the USGP weekend.....then we hear the deal is off, with Andretti shortly thereafter saying it failed over issues regarding "control" of the team.

 

Perhaps we're putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 but it fits. 



#854 Mohican

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 07:27

Yes, it is possible that Sauber's current owners kept the relevant stakeholders in the loop, but the stakeholders you mention - Alfa Romeo, Ferrari, and FOM - are themselves some of the most image-conscious organisations in the world. Would they be indifferent to their image being sullied by association if Michael Andretti were lying about what the owners of Sauber - the important Alfa and Ferrari client and FOM participant - had done?

One does not know why Michael Andretti would have invented the bit about 'changes at the 11th hour' if that had not happened. He could simply have said, 'We tried our best but in the end could not agree on the details', if in fact there had not been an 11th hour change of stance.

So he has made a claim which he had no obvious reason to create out of thin air and which is entirely believable, and the other side have said nothing.
Sure, one can imagine scenarios in which Andretti is lying and the owners acted in good faith throughout. The only problem with such scenarios is that, so far, there is zero evidence to support them, or even to suggest them. It is left to members here to imagine them.


I think we just have to accept that Sauber’s current owners do not see the need to get into a public debate about this, regardless of your interpretations.

Andretti’s comments obviously reflects his views, which are of course subjective. Nothing strange in this.

#855 absinthedude

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 09:18

Longbow have always been quiet. They're not publicity seekers. It's within character for them not to comment publicly on this.

 

Regarding the "Pink Mercedes"....I am not at all convinced that the FIA are so incompetent as some believe. I do believe the car was closely related to the 2019 Mercedes, but not illegally so. 



#856 Sterzo

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 10:08

Andretti's comments may or may not be the whole story but they aren't libellous; Longbow don't need to respond. The standard advice by the PR manager at one firm I worked at was not to respond to controversial comments. They're soon forgotten, whereas if you stir up a public dispute you come out with a sullied reputation, regardlesss of the rights and wrongs.



#857 New Britain

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 10:08

I think we just have to accept that Sauber’s current owners do not see the need to get into a public debate about this, regardless of your interpretations.

Andretti’s comments obviously reflects his views, which are of course subjective. Nothing strange in this.

Indeed, even if Andretti sincerely believed that he was being 100% objective, that would not eliminate the risk of unconscious bias.

 

At the same time, if a party in a court proceeding declines to provide certain evidence when it would nonetheless be possible for him/her to do so, the court is entitled to draw inferences from that choice to decline.

Similarly in the court of public opinion, you and others are free to draw no inferences from the silence of Longbow and the Alfa team, whilst I and others are free to draw them. Such inferences could not lead to a definite conclusion, but they could shift the probability that a given scenario happened.



#858 New Britain

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 10:52

That's why I was sceptical at the time, but the pieces of the jigsaw fit. So there may have been some truth in it all along. As only one party has given any indication of what happened, we may never know. Longbow has always been a quiet partner, not prone to publicity themselves. 

 

From a chronological point of view, in terms of what appeared in the media (which I accept is never going to be the full picture)....Andretti approached Longbow....we hear a deal is nearly done, ready to be signed....we hear an announcement will be made at the USGP and that Colton Herta may drive in free practise with a view to racing in the future.....then we hear there may be a stumbling block....we also hear rumours that Andretti might want to replace a lot of the technical staff....Michael Andretti personally flies to the Longbow people to talk.....we hear nothing much over the USGP weekend.....then we hear the deal is off, with Andretti shortly thereafter saying it failed over issues regarding "control" of the team.

 

Perhaps we're putting 2 and 2 together and coming up with 5 but it fits. 

The timeline fits, and would explain why Andretti might have felt that the goalposts had been moved at the last minute whilst Longbow might have felt that they were doing the right thing in the face of some Americans' heartless commerciality.

 

Two things that, at least on the surface, do not quite fit in that scenario:

 

- Although as stated above it is possible to have ownership structures in which one party has the majority of the economic interest and prospective returns whilst a completely different party has control of all important leadership and operating decisions, it is the exception not the rule. Surely the Longbow team (including professional advisors) would have known from the beginning that anyone buying the majority economic interest in a Formula One team would expect thereby to have control over the team's operating decisions. That issue would never have been thought at the start to be merely a minor detail and then ingenuously mentioned at the last minute.

 

- It is inconceivable that the Longbow people know more about how to run a racing team than the Andrettis know. If the Andrettis wanted to make wholesale changes by replacing the bulk of the existing Sauber staff with 'Andretti people' (a speculation that I do not credit, but it is possible), would Longbow actually have responded, 'We understand Formula One better than you do and we cannot accept that because it would be bad for the team'?

 

Perhaps the most likely explanation is that, as the implications of the sale began to dawn on the team's owners, and in response to speculation that Andretti was going to replace the team's senior management (which is far more believable than the idea that Andretti was going to replace the entire staff) Longbow was getting lobbied hard by that senior management to protect their positions, Longbow's owners had a change of heart. That is to say, at the beginning they had not thought through the whole thing, the negotiations soon took on a momentum of their own, and it was only at the last minute that Longbow's owners realised what they should have known all along.



#859 Mohican

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Posted 13 November 2021 - 13:33

Andretti were long feeding the media, making it believe that a deal was as good as done. Clearly, this was not the case.
So who was unrealistic ? Buyer or seller ?

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#860 New Britain

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:00

Andretti were long feeding the media, making it believe that a deal was as good as done. Clearly, this was not the case.
So who was unrealistic ? Buyer or seller ?

The answer to that obviously depends on whether there was, as Andretti has claimed, a fundamental change in terms and conditions at the '11th hour'.



#861 pdac

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 01:07

The answer to that obviously depends on whether there was, as Andretti has claimed, a fundamental change in terms and conditions at the '11th hour'.

 

And that is something none of us are party to. So whatever arguments people here come up with, nothing can be declared as anything more than plausible or implausible. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in between the more radical theories. Quotes from either side cannot really be used to back up any theories unless there is consensus between the quotes from both sides.



#862 GreenMachine

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 02:02

Seems to be that a bunch of hicks rode into town chasing a deal.  They tipped their hand, leaked their intentions, and generally behaved as if the deal had been done ages ago.  The other party didn't like what they saw and heard, and added a requirement they knew would be unacceptable, and so it proved.

 

Lots of aphorisms about 'fools rush in' etc, make your choice.

 

Next time fellas, try something like 'softee, softee, catchee monkey'. :wave:



#863 eibyyz

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 03:03

Michael may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.  Since he declared the deal dead, he's shut up about it.  Both sides are going to be fine.



#864 loki

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 06:31

Seems to be that a bunch of hicks rode into town chasing a deal.  They tipped their hand, leaked their intentions, and generally behaved as if the deal had been done ages ago.  The other party didn't like what they saw and heard, and added a requirement they knew would be unacceptable, and so it proved.

 

Lots of aphorisms about 'fools rush in' etc, make your choice.

 

Next time fellas, try something like 'softee, softee, catchee monkey'. :wave:

Andretti and Sandbrook are anything but “hicks”.   Add the legal tems representing them as well as those umderwriting and it’s a solid team of bigtime business pros.  This was the real thing.  It just didn’t pan out.



#865 New Britain

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 09:19

And that is something none of us are party to. So whatever arguments people here come up with, nothing can be declared as anything more than plausible or implausible. As always, the truth is probably somewhere in between the more radical theories. Quotes from either side cannot really be used to back up any theories unless there is consensus between the quotes from both sides.

Yes, and this applies to almost everything that is ever discussed on the Autosport Racing Comments forum.

With rare exceptions, none of us was a participant in anything discussed on this forum and, even if we were participants, we know only what we personally experienced, not what the other participants experienced. No one has comprehensive objective knowledge, not even, in this case, Michael Andretti or whoever was representing Longbow.

Nonetheless we share the information, recollections, impressions, and opinions that we do have. That is why we are here.



#866 New Britain

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 09:31

Seems to be that a bunch of hicks rode into town chasing a deal.  They tipped their hand, leaked their intentions, and generally behaved as if the deal had been done ages ago.  The other party didn't like what they saw and heard, and added a requirement they knew would be unacceptable, and so it proved.

 

Lots of aphorisms about 'fools rush in' etc, make your choice.

 

Next time fellas, try something like 'softee, softee, catchee monkey'. :wave:

 

Andretti and Sandbrook are anything but “hicks”.   Add the legal tems representing them as well as those umderwriting and it’s a solid team of bigtime business pros.  This was the real thing.  It just didn’t pan out.

Don't you know that all Americans are ham-fisted, clueless clowns whilst all Europeans are super-slick, sophisticated negotiators (who invariably conduct themselves with the utmost integrity)?



#867 pdac

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 10:37

Don't you know that all Americans are ham-fisted, clueless clowns whilst all Europeans are super-slick, sophisticated negotiators (who invariably conduct themselves with the utmost integrity)?

 

Sweeping generalisation ... but there is a cultural difference between the way these two groups approach business deals, I think (although its getting very watered down as years pass).



#868 noikeee

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 10:39

Yes, and this applies to almost everything that is ever discussed on the Autosport Racing Comments forum.
With rare exceptions, none of us was a participant in anything discussed on this forum and, even if we were participants, we know only what we personally experienced, not what the other participants experienced. No one has comprehensive objective knowledge, not even, in this case, Michael Andretti or whoever was representing Longbow.
Nonetheless we share the information, recollections, impressions, and opinions that we do have. That is why we are here.


This is the case on any threads that don't have anything to do directly concerning *racing*. We can see drivers putting in their laptimes and racing wheel to wheel and we can have much more informed opinions regarding that. But when it comes to business (or even all internal matters about team staff, such as when team directors are sacked or appointed), we really are pretty damn uninformed and with a very small narrow window of perception of what's actually going on.

Which is why I find it hilarious that people clearly take sides and rigidly defend Longbow, or rigidly defend Andretti, or just blindly buy into the first thing rumoured by the press as fact. Guys we have absolutely no idea what's going on, and no way of knowing. I personally don't quite buy the "oh they backtracked when they found the staff was going to be sacked" explanation, so I'm leaning more towards the Andretti point of view, but I really don't know what's smoke and mirrors or not. For all we know both sides are feeding biased bullshit to the media.

It's only when things get overwhelmingly ridiculous and one narrative clearly becomes not-believable, such as the Rich Energy case, that I feel comfortable taking a clear side in these threads about "deals".

#869 New Britain

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 11:11

Sweeping generalisation ... but there is a cultural difference between the way these two groups approach business deals, I think (although its getting very watered down as years pass).

As you say, the stylistic differences are diminishing.

As far as the general level of integrity, there is no difference (and I'm not sure that there ever was).



#870 BRG

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 11:15

Quotes from either side cannot really be used to back up any theories unless there is consensus between the quotes from both sides.

And not even then, sometimes.



#871 loki

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Posted 14 November 2021 - 16:10

Sweeping generalisation ... but there is a cultural difference between the way these two groups approach business deals, I think (although its getting very watered down as years pass).

 

I’ve been doing business in both places (and others) for decades now.  The tactics and approaches aren’t really different.  Cultures and decorum are different but approaches and strategies are quite similar if not identical in most cases.



#872 RA2

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Posted 20 December 2021 - 06:32

Anything known on Andretti's plan B? It has been a month since anybody has been talking about him. Personally I would love for him to tie up a deal with Alpine and run the cars with some Infiniti branding.

#873 player1s

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Posted 20 December 2021 - 07:25

Anything known on Andretti's plan B? It has been a month since anybody has been talking about him. Personally I would love for him to tie up a deal with Alpine and run the cars with some Infiniti branding.

If prices really go up into the billions for existing teams I dont think anyone will ever buy one again unless the debts are payable and they can get the team for $1.



#874 William Hunt

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Posted 21 December 2021 - 04:20

If prices really go up into the billions for existing teams I dont think anyone will ever buy one again unless the debts are payable and they can get the team for $1.

 

If that would ever happen well then it would be a very good idea to start up a new team now.