790 replies to this topic

[thegamer23]

 

 

So, i think it's time to have this kind of discussion guys.
Let's try to keep it as constructive & positive as possible, thinking about possible solutions & discussing together!
 

In the previous years, we've seen multiple monumental crashes in the Eau Rouge/Radillion section. 

It's almost mathematical, there's at least one big crash there each season, across the various racing classes. 
The incident dynamic is, most of the times, like the following: one car shunts, comes back right into the trajectory and gets T-Boned by the upcoming cars, who can't slow down in time.

 

This trend seems to be on an uprising trajectory in the last few years.

Why is that?

Are the drivers willing to take more risks in the section beacause of the tarmac runoff?

Is that beacause of the increased performance of the cars, not only in F1? 

OR is it just a big weakness in this circuit's safety? 

 

 

 

Just some examples..

I'm sure the list can go on, also with fatal crashes that obviously nobody wants to watch.
And another huge crash has been added to the list today, during the qualis (Not even a race!) of the W Series.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, taking in accounts all the incidents & tragic pileups of the recent years.
The question is simple.

 

Do you think this section is too dangerous for modern safety standards?

 

If so, what can be done in order to improve safety in this section of the track? 

If not, what's your position regarding this subject of discussion? 

 

 

Let's try to dicuss the matter guys, and maybe try to come up with a possible solution! (If Needed)
 

-----------------------------------------

MY POSITION

This section needs to be improved in terms of Safety, and the change has to come as soon as next season.

First measure, put Gravel Trap right back, both inside & outside.

This will make the drivers to slow down immediately if they see a cloud of dust at the top of the hill.

It's a natural instinct, a kind of survival instinct. 

 

As it is right now, they always come into the crashes with way too much speed, going wide into the tarmac runoff only to find another car stranded there. 

That's the Hubert crash, basically.

Most important: the width at the top of the hill needs to be widened: as it is now, it naturally leads to Pile-Ups.
How you can do it?
Well, now it gets tricky.

You can do that only by moving back the Grandstand, or even removing it.
By doing that, there would be much more space on the outside, and at least, the kind of crashes that we've seen today in the W Series could be avoided.

I would rather sacrifice a grandstand than putting a Chicane there.

 

Edited by thegamer23, 27 August 2021 - 18:01.

[TheFish]

I don’t want it to change at all, except for more run off if possible. It’s a brilliant and unique part of the calendar.

[statman]

Since there's tarmac run-off there's less respect for the corner-combination. When there were gravel traps you can hear the drivers lift and even shift back a gear (old onboards). They basically butchered the corner.

[SophieB]

That’s a really thoughtful and convincing OP, thegamer23. 

[PayasYouRace]

I'm not sure if there is an uprising trend. It's always been a very dangerous bit of racetrack. Just think back to Bellof, Zanardi, etc.

 

I think the best thing to do would be to slow it down by taking it back to the pre-1983 shape. In 1983 the current shape was adopted, and for many years the left-hand side of the track was still in the old shape leading to a very wide but unused bit of track. Since the new runoff was first put in in 1995 it's been the same width. See below. Despite having barriers much closer to the track, the racing line is the same as today. But modern cars of all sorts have so much more grip than in the old days, it makes the corner much faster.

 

 

 

Now look at older photos. The "chicane" is much more pronounced. The racing line is much further to the left overall, with a tighter first part leading to more of a straight to a tighter second part. It would still be a challenging corner, but it would force most types of car to have to slow down a lot more than they do today.

 

 

 

 

It's actually quite difficult to find photos of it in the days of the modern circuit, but before the change was made for F1 to return. But any picture from the old circuit really drives home the difference.

 

 

So I think that's the best way to go about it. Make it slower, but keep the general shape and character. Something a lot more sympathetic than the 1994 chicane.

 

[Bliman]

I think there is too little respect these days for the corner like I said in the Belgium thread.

We have to take away the kinetic energy when people crash there. This can be done with a longer runoff and gravel and good barriers and because the runoff is longer the bounce-back would be way less.

We also have the way the runoff is now. If someone sees someone crashing or in trouble on the way up. The most natural reaction is to go wide because you know there is a runoff. This means the drivers keep way too much speed and there is a risk they will plow into cars he cannot see ahead of them.

If there is gravel on both sides the drivers will respect the trajectory of the corner much more and this leads to a couple of cars of the track but the others adhering to the racing line. Like someone says with gravel you also have the puff of dust going up noticing the back drivers. Also with a longer runoff and good barriers and gravel the energy is much more depleted when multiple cars crash there.

Now drivers are taking the corner as a highway but with a corner carved in the middle. So I see it as a combination of problems and solutions.

I hope this iconic corner will not go away.

[PayasYouRace]

I think there is too little respect these days for the corner like I said in the Belgium thread.

We have to take away the kinetic energy when people crash there. This can be done with a longer runoff and gravel and good barriers and because the runoff is longer the bounce-back would be way less.

We also have the way the runoff is now. If someone sees someone crashing or in trouble on the way up. The most natural reaction is to go wide because you know there is a runoff. This means the drivers keep way too much speed and there is a risk they will plow into cars he cannot see ahead of them.

If there is gravel on both sides the drivers will respect the trajectory of the corner much more and this leads to a couple of cars of the track but the others adhering to the racing line. Like someone says with gravel you also have the puff of dust going up noticing the back drivers. Also with a longer runoff and good barriers and gravel the energy is much more depleted when multiple cars crash there.

Now drivers are taking the corner as a highway but with a corner carved in the middle. So I see it as a combination of problems and solutions.

I hope this iconic corner will not go away.

 

You'd have to change the track too, because professional drivers are going to push to the limit no matter what's lining the track, be it walls, gravel, grass or just a white line. It's what I said, most modern cars have so much more grip than their 1980s counterparts when the corner was first aligned in its current form.

[Bliman]

You'd have to change the track too, because professional drivers are going to push to the limit no matter what's lining the track, be it walls, gravel, grass or just a white line. It's what I said, most modern cars have so much more grip than their 1980s counterparts when the corner was first aligned in its current form.

I disagree you have to change the track. For example, look at the W series I don't think they had so much grip there but it still was a massive crash and a dangerous one. There are other problems than the trajectory of the corner.

[dweller23]

Of course drivers will push to the limits, but somehow in the last three years there's been more multi-car crashes there than altogether in previous 20 or so years, which to me is baffling. It cannot be just track that is to blame. It's not like drivers don't know that racing is supposed to be dangerous and that the appeal of it is that it takes courage to put your health on the line and drive.

 

I am wondering if there's an impact of ever more accessible and popular racing games that sort of gives young drivers the attitude of being invincible, it's just a thought, not something you need to immediately demand a proof of.

 

Overall, I think that bringing back some level of gravel around these corners would be a good idea (and while they're at it they could also restore Rivage to its glory), because that would certainly make drivers approach this corner a bit more cautiously.

 

Also, the W-Series crash could've happened anywhere and have a very similar way of unfolding, 6-7 drivers spinning the same way in a row and the last one mowing them full throttle instead of slowing down - if you run full throttle into a scene of an accident it doesn't matter if it's Spa or anything else.

Edited by dweller23, 27 August 2021 - 18:46.

[Bliman]

Of course drivers will push to the limits, but somehow in the last three years there's been more multi-car crashes there than altogether in previous 20 or so years, which to me is baffling. It cannot be just track that is to blame. It's not like drivers don't know that racing is supposed to be dangerous and that the appeal of it is that it takes courage to put your health on the line and drive.

 

I am wondering if there's an impact of ever more accessible and popular racing games that sort of gives young drivers the attitude of being invincible, it's just a thought, not something you need to immediately demand a proof of.

 

Overall, I think that bringing back some level of gravel around these corners would be a good idea (and while they're at it they could also restore Rivage to its glory), because that would certainly make drivers approach this corner a bit more cautiously.

 

Also, the W-Series crash could've happened anywhere and have a very similar way of unfolding, 6-7 drivers spinning the same way in a row and the last one mowing them full throttle instead of slowing down - if you run full throttle into a scene of an accident it doesn't matter if it's Spa or anything else.

I disagree. why did the last one go full trottle (maybe) into the cars. That is unique to the corner. You only have a very limited view of what is ahead. The possibility shouldn't be there to take that line without having deep gravel. Who knows she lost control initially but put her foot down and go straight to race on and she didn't see the rest fast enough and you see the rest.

[PayasYouRace]

I disagree you have to change the track. For example, look at the W series I don't think they had so much grip there but it still was a massive crash and a dangerous one. There are other problems than the trajectory of the corner.

 

It's the grip compared to the speed of the cars. W Series cars like any modern slicks-and-wings single-seater has a lot of grip compared to its power, so a corner like Eau Rouge is either flat out or close to it. That's something that's pretty much a factor in any modern racing car, be it single-seater, GT, sports car or touring car.

 

The specific W Series accident was caused by sudden rain, and that's always going to be a factor at Spa. But many of the accidents mentioned in the OP were in dry conditions.

[rodlamas]

No.

[Stephane]

It's really hard to have a real idea of how different it was. Every picture has a different perspective

[Bliman]

It's the grip compared to the speed of the cars. W Series cars like any modern slicks-and-wings single-seater has a lot of grip compared to its power, so a corner like Eau Rouge is either flat out or close to it. That's something that's pretty much a factor in any modern racing car, be it single-seater, GT, sports car or touring car.

 

The specific W Series accident was caused by sudden rain, and that's always going to be a factor at Spa. But many of the accidents mentioned in the OP were in dry conditions.

So you are saying they are taking eau rouge faster than before and it is this that is causing all the trouble? To me it doesn't sound convincing as cause of the problem. I think we see some similarities with the W series crash in regards to the other crashes and this is at a lower speed. That to me is no coincidence. Especially the last car that went straight and basically t boned the other car. We have seen that happen often now. And this hasn't anything to do with the grip or speed but more with visibility and the trajectories you can take when you are in trouble and how fast the cars slow down in gravel and such at that corner imo.

[SophieB]

 

 

Now look at older photos. The "chicane" is much more pronounced. The racing line is much further to the left overall, with a tighter first part leading to more of a straight to a tighter second part. It would still be a challenging corner, but it would force most types of car to have to slow down a lot more than the do today.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's beside the point being well made, but when was this? That's Bellof crashing but obviously not his fatal crash at this track in the World Sportscar Championship. 

[Collombin]

It's beside the point being well made, but when was this? That's Bellof crashing but obviously not his fatal crash at this track in the World Sportscar Championship.

1982 F2 I think. I nearly posted just to point out it wasn't his fatal one but assumed that was just stating the bleedin' obvious.

[SophieB]

1982 F2 I think. I nearly posted just to point out it wasn't his fatal one but assumed that was just stating the bleedin' obvious.

Many thanks, it had me puzzled! I forgot about F2.

[Muppetmad]

I know it's slightly on from Raidillon, but the F1 YouTube channel uploaded this video a few days back, and it just popped up in my recommended videos. It struck me that there is a peculiarly sentimental view on Raikkonen staying full throttle, as if it was brave and laudable of him. In reality, it's a clip I think we should view as pretty horrifying. It's also symptomatic, I think, of that slow shift in the past few decades in how drivers treat yellow flags. I do wonder how much of a factor this has played in making Eau Rouge/Raidillon a more incident-prone section of the circuit.

 

Eau Rouge, through Raidillon and onto the Kemmel Straight is fast, narrow and has imperfect visibility. It's an uncomfortable combination.

 

[milestone 11]

The corner does not need changing, the run offs do. Gravel was supposedly going to replace the tarmac run offs 2 years ago, nothing, absolutely notuing, has been done in two years. Changing to gravel and adjusting the line of the barriers will have a huge impact at reducing these types of accidents. Drivers take as many liberties as they're able, take that opportunity away. Were there walls there, would they take such liberties? No. They don't crash like this at Monaco because there is a little more respect for the circuit.

[P123]

The sequence is now more of a challenge for car safety than driver skill.

[cpbell]

I'm not sure if there is an uprising trend. It's always been a very dangerous bit of racetrack. Just think back to Bellof, Zanardi, etc.

 

I think the best thing to do would be to slow it down by taking it back to the pre-1983 shape. In 1983 the current shape was adopted, and for many years the left-hand side of the track was still in the old shape leading to a very wide but unused bit of track. Since the new runoff was first put in in 1995 it's been the same. See below. Despite having barriers much closer to the track, the racing line is the same as today. But modern cars of all sorts have so much more grip than in the old days, it makes the corner much faster.

 

 

 

Now look at older photos. The "chicane" is much more pronounced. The racing line is much further to the left overall, with a tighter first part leading to more of a straight to a tighter second part. It would still be a challenging corner, but it would force most types of car to have to slow down a lot more than the do today.

 

 

 

 

It's actually quite difficult to find photos of it in the days of the modern circuit, but before the change was made for F1 to return. But any picture from the old circuit really drives home the difference.

 

 

So I think that's the best way to go about it. Make it slower, but keep the general shape and character. Something a lot more sympathetic than the 1994 chicane.

 

Agreed.

[PayasYouRace]

The corner does not need changing, the run offs do. Gravel was supposedly going to replace the tarmac run offs 2 years ago, nothing, absolutely notuing, has been done in two years. Changing to gravel and adjusting the line of the barriers will have a huge impact at reducing these types of accidents. Drivers take as many liberties as they're able, take that opportunity away. Were there walls there, would they take such liberties? No. They don't crash like this at Monaco because there is a little more respect for the circuit.

 

Though for years now many have moaned about how the corner isn't even a challenge in modern F1 cars. It's just easily flat out. It's not 1999 anymore. So slowing the sequence would not only make things safer, but more fun and challenging too, like people have been wanting for about 20 years.

 

Also, if walls were there, you'd still have the huge accidents. (See the Tyrrells in 1987, or Zanardi in 1993, or Bellof's various accidents). It's not just "respect for the circuit" that keeps drivers on track. No amount of "respect for the circuit" would have prevented the W Series crash, for example.

[Ben1445]

I like the idea of pre-1983-ifying it.

Hard to say it wouldn’t be in the spirit of the corner and its history. If anything it might bring back some of the lost challenge.

[ANF]

I know it's slightly on from Raidillon, but the F1 YouTube channel uploaded this video a few days back, and it just popped up in my recommended videos. It struck me that there is a peculiarly sentimental view on Raikkonen staying full throttle, as if it was brave and laudable of him. In reality, it's a clip I think we should view as pretty horrifying. It's also symptomatic, I think, of that slow shift in the past few decades in how drivers treat yellow flags. I do wonder how much of a factor this has played in making Eau Rouge/Raidillon a more incident-prone section of the circuit.
 
Eau Rouge, through Raidillon and onto the Kemmel Straight is fast, narrow and has imperfect visibility. It's an uncomfortable combination.
 

They posted the same video on Twitter too with this caption:

"Kimi knows no fear ❄"

It's such a stupid thing to post and stupid thing to say. I thought about replying and posting the video of Peter Li's and Ryan Tveter's accident at the Red Bull Ring.

[prty]

One of the biggest problems is having tire walls too close to the track, and with a too small angle. This means that any car that crashes there either gets trapped into them at very high speed, or it gets bounced back to the track. The protections should allow sliding through them if the crash angle is low enough, like with tecpro. Or having spaced rows of single tire barriers, so that the cars don't bounce back. Either that or moving the barriers further back (I know the orography would need to be changed), is slowly getting urgent.

[IrvTheSwerve]

[copied my post over from the race thread]

 

When they took the gravel away from Eau Rouge, they made it safer in some ways but I actually think they’ve made it more dangerous in others.

 

The corner is certainly a hair-raiser but I think it’s safe enough. I think the issue is that the drivers really do not treat it with respect any more. Since the runoff changed to asphalt, drivers have been taking liberties there left, right and centre. Drivers are pushing the limits with the knowledge that they can run wide, but this brings them dangerously close to the barriers at the top of the hill. The amount of kerb that they are trying to cut at both Eau Rouge and the rise over Raidillon is ridiculous and it’s only natural that it’ll go wrong every now and again.

 

It feels like the danger of Eau Rouge is still there, but the fear of it is not. That’s more of a scarier thought to me. 

[Rediscoveryx]

I gurss the problem is this; the primary danger is not the contact with the barriers (which is the case at pretty much any other spot on the calendar). The primary danger is cars at speed hitting cars that have crashed. And it’s very difficult to control where the crashed cars will end up.

Compare today’s crash with the 2019 F2 crash and it’s the same phenomenon but on a completely different part of the corner. How to adress this, I don’t know…

[sportyskells]

Just a reminder everyone, spa will add gravel traps for the return of motorbike races at certain points

[noikeee]

I like the idea of pre-1983-ifying it.

Hard to say it wouldn’t be in the spirit of the corner and its history. If anything it might bring back some of the lost challenge.

Yeah I'm warming up to the idea.

You kind of don't want to touch one of the most iconic corners in F1, but if it has history in another form, it's not even a real challenge right now, and it's killing people and/or regularly coming close to killing people...

[mikeC]

[copied my post over from the race thread]

 

When they took the gravel away from Eau Rouge, they made it safer in some ways but I actually think they’ve made it more dangerous in others.

 

The corner is certainly a hair-raiser but I think it’s safe enough. I think the issue is that the drivers really do not treat it with respect any more. Since the runoff changed to asphalt, drivers have been taking liberties there left, right and centre. Drivers are pushing the limits with the knowledge that they can run wide, but this brings them dangerously close to the barriers at the top of the hill. The amount of kerb that they are trying to cut at both Eau Rouge and the rise over Raidillon is ridiculous and it’s only natural that it’ll go wrong every now and again.

 

It feels like the danger of Eau Rouge is still there, but the fear of it is not. That’s more of a scarier thought to me. 

 

Exactly. I think it's significant that all the W-Series cars involved were off the track at the point of impact.

[milestone 11]

Though for years now many have moaned about how the corner isn't even a challenge in modern F1 cars. It's just easily flat out. It's not 1999 anymore. So slowing the sequence would not only make things safer, but more fan and challenging too, like people have been wanting for about 20 years.
 
Also, if walls were there, you'd still have the huge accidents. (See the Tyrrells in 1987, or Zanardi in 1993, or Bellof's various accidents). It's not just "respect for the circuit" that keeps drivers on track. No amount of "respect for the circuit" would have prevented the W Series crash, for example.

It's impossible to know that with any certainty. I believe it would have.

[prty]

Senna almost crashed into Zanardi too, so not lifting for whatever reason isn't anything new:

 

[milestone 11]

We'll all be pleased to know that Masi has said that Radillon and its immediate environs are perfectly safe from an FIA point of view, they have a Grade 1 licence, he added, and they've constantly been carrying out improvements over the last couple of years. Jesus. Improvements with Radillon's run offs were going to be carried out two years ago.
See Autosport story.

Edited by milestone 11, 27 August 2021 - 20:42.

[Stephane]

I didn't pay attention at the time, but yeah, the new asphalt is clearly visible.

https://photos.app.g...k1qrPKALzQ4BG18

[noikeee]

Exactly. I think it's significant that all the W-Series cars involved were off the track at the point of impact.

 

So 6 cars went off track almost simultaneously because they all lost respect at the same time?

[Stephane]

Those naughty girls

[Fastcake]

The W Series incident seemed a freak occurrence. A wet track with several drivers caught out in succession, which cascaded into a big crash as other drivers collected them. I wouldn’t want to add it to a list of things caused by anything to do with the corner and it’s layout.

There’s meant to be changes to the run-off and barriers in the near future. It seems reasonable to wait to see the outcome before suggesting any more changes.

[H0R]

I am sure Herrmann Tilke will come up with a sensible solution.

[OvDrone]

It's happening over too many different categories now for it to be just one shocking and erratic incident. There is no denying this. And I am even questioning the 'challenge' it even poses with modern cars now. You just go flat-out and that's it. Maybe it's time to implement a better solution that honors the spirit of this legendary track.

 

This is a very thought provoking subject and I appreciate the nuanced approach most of you undertook.

 

One thing is certain now, it's too much. We gotta stop the bleeding, or the maths will win in the end resulting in another F2 2019 horror.

[ANF]

I didn't pay attention at the time, but yeah, the new asphalt is clearly visible.

https://photos.app.g...k1qrPKALzQ4BG18

Oh, interesting! How new is it? This may very well be the spot where the cars spun out, close to where the kerbs begin.

[jpm2019]

This section is infamous for bouncing cars back on the track. This is the most dangerous thing in modern day car racing. For me its not acceptable. Car racing is dangerous, and little run off ereas like 130r of zandvoort are ok for me, but here i draw a line. They need to do something before it will go wrong again.

[MikeTekRacing]

It's happening over too many different categories now for it to be just one shocking and erratic incident. There is no denying this. And I am even questioning the 'challenge' it even poses with modern cars now. 

Not sure I agree with that. If it's not a challenge, why do we see crashes here?

[IrvTheSwerve]

I wonder if there’s ever been any discussion to just straighten it so it’s a flat-out straight from La Source to Kemmel?

There’d have to be a bit of work done around the other pit lane exit that’s for sure. Plus there’d be a massive backlash. I just wonder if it’s ever been on the table.

Maybe the gradient would be too steep if it were a straight line…

[Stephane]

Oh, interesting! How new is it? This may very well be the spot where the cars spun out, close to where the kerbs begin.

 

It was already there for the Fun Cup in early July, but not yet for the WEC in May

[pdac]

Not sure I agree with that. If it's not a challenge, why do we see crashes here?

 

It's not perceived to be a challenge by the drivers (until it is)

[OvDrone]

Not sure I agree with that. If it's not a challenge, why do we see crashes here?

Is Turn 3 / Remus at Spielberg an actual challenge to the MotoGP guys or just a tragedy waiting to happen ?

 

It's starting to look like that for Radillion.

[Topsu]

The problem lately has been that drivers do not slow down when an incident happens. They need to treat Eau Rouge as a danger zone. Add some lights there and start flashing them as soon as someone even spins. Or just instantly turn on VSC.

[Bliman]

This video that ANF posted also gives a clue imo.

https://www.youtube....h?v=ZyVbhiWnC1U

Look how the last one doesn't even try to make the corner and goes straight. I think that is the one that was the most dangerous and that was the one with the highest speed and tboned the car around the engine.

So that means she basically didn't see what happened and/or felt the car was slipping away or didn't put an effort in and just went straight full throttle and because she can't see what is over the crest she plows full-on on the engine side of the car that ends up at the tarmac with the biggest hit.

It is this tarmac run off with no visibility of what has happened up ahead that is a big cause of the problems. If something happens it means that something sudden has happened in the corner (to avoid a wing, someone has slipped, etc...) and that means many drivers after what has happened can have problems. That also means that there is a higher chance that with the tarmac run off that if someone doesn't make the corner he or she or multiple drivers will take the easy route and goes straight with great speed and no visibility and then big crashes will happen. That's why we need good barriers that make the impact shallow and make them lose speed over a bigger distance and a big gravel trap to lessen the chance that a car comes back to the track and/or follows the car in front with high speed. It also means that drivers will not take the easy route and especially not at very high speed.

[Bliman]

The problem lately has been that drivers do not slow down when an incident happens. They need to treat Eau Rouge as a danger zone. Add some lights there and start flashing them as soon as someone even spins. Or just instantly turn on VSC.

By then it already is to late.

[TomNokoe]

I liked your point about the gravel acting as a natural yellow flag, gamer23.

 

To me, it's all about visibility and awareness. People don't know they're about to have a crash until they are right on top of it.

In some ways, if the crashes happened earlier in the corner, it would be safer, because drivers on the approach would be able to see a stricken car. I'm not sure if it's possible to re-profile the corner and position the barriers in such a way as to make this happen, but with the road cresting, you can never make this visibility-proof.

 

I was even wondering if there's a possibility of having a special marshalling system just for this corner so that any incidents are immediately communicated to the drivers electronically. But if it really is that dangerous then it must be reprofiled.