60 replies to this topic

[foxyracer]

Have you ever been to a normal, 'clubbie' historic meeting? (HSCC etc...), there's hardly ANY sort of crowd anyway!

 

Yes there is!! Me!!

[Doug Nye]

Back in 1964-65, I earned a few bob - and I mean 'a FEW' - at weekends as Brands Hatch assistant press officer when I was on the staff of 'Motor Racing' magazine (and associated publications) based in a Portakabin there.

 

If I recall correctly we used to average crowds of 4,000 for Saturday club meetings, and 6-7,000 for Sundays.  When I mentioned this recently to a race promoter friend involved with a current UK circuit he gasped - commenting that 10-20 per cent of such figures would be considered fantastic for a baseline meeting these days.  

 

Survival of 'the sport' depends purely upon enthusiastic commitment, volunteer officials and income from competitor entry fees plus general commercial sponsorship plus subsidy from other club/circuit income plus gate money combined...

 

In short - without enthusiast life support - running motor racing club meetings here in 2021 that are reliant upon gate money alone is no longer a viable business proposition.  Nor, in fact, has it been for many years.

 

DCN

[Ray Bell]

That sounds like the way National Open meetings are run in Australia these days...

 

Nobody bothers to do any serious promoting.

[Sterzo]

I have one word for those who think squirrelling away historic cars in private collections is a new thing: Schlumpf.

[Derwent Motorsport]

Historic rallying has a similar problem.  when the MSA a sit was produced historic road rally regulations 31 years ago, thee vents were getting full entries. Some of the cars could be just 15 years old in the "post historic" class.  Now, despite further age cut off points being added, club level historic events struggle unless they have a Targa event added. Much of this is due to the worth of the cars. On the other hand the "commercial" sector that run the multi day regularity  rallies are doing well with more and more organisers and competitors. A completely different type of competitor, plenty of dosh and time and perhaps not much previous involvement with cars and motorsport.  Only the best hotels are used and the entry fees can average out at £1000 per day per crew including accommodation while a typical club rally can be £100 a day with no accommodation. Some of the commercial events are only mildly competitive but have all the trappings of a rally.   

The commercial events though do rely heavily on marshals from the local clubs to run tests and controls.  As these events often run weekdays, the marshals are invariably pensioners with years of expertise, How long will they want to do it?

The issue for all motorsport which relies on hundreds of volunteer officials and marshals every weekend is that there increasingly people "promoting" events or championships who are making a great deal of money on the backs of the lads and lasses in orange ad the licenced officials.  Is that sustainable?

[10kDA]

Historic rallying has a similar problem.  when the MSA a sit was produced historic road rally regulations 31 years ago, thee vents were getting full entries. Some of the cars could be just 15 years old in the "post historic" class.  Now, despite further age cut off points being added, club level historic events struggle unless they have a Targa event added. Much of this is due to the worth of the cars. On the other hand the "commercial" sector that run the multi day regularity  rallies are doing well with more and more organisers and competitors. A completely different type of competitor, plenty of dosh and time and perhaps not much previous involvement with cars and motorsport.  Only the best hotels are used and the entry fees can average out at £1000 per day per crew including accommodation while a typical club rally can be £100 a day with no accommodation. Some of the commercial events are only mildly competitive but have all the trappings of a rally.   

The commercial events though do rely heavily on marshals from the local clubs to run tests and controls.  As these events often run weekdays, the marshals are invariably pensioners with years of expertise, How long will they want to do it?

The issue for all motorsport which relies on hundreds of volunteer officials and marshals every weekend is that there increasingly people "promoting" events or championships who are making a great deal of money on the backs of the lads and lasses in orange ad the licenced officials.  Is that sustainable?

It can be sustainable if the volunteers are  treated well. But, as you say, there will be turnover amongst the volunteers as some stop contributing due to age, waning interest, change of life circimstances etc. When volunteers are treated well by the paid organizing staff, they create a culture which short-timer volunteers pick up on, and it creates a win-win for everyone. I've seen this happen over decades as a volunteer at a huge volunteer-dependent aviation event in the US. This volunteer culture seems to be a learn-by-doing process by newer volunteers. Over time I've seen some corporate types on the paid staff act as if the volunteers working for them in their areas are paid employees, subject to the whim of management. If people aren't on the payroll they can bail whenever they want, and it happened. The former volunteers returned as spectators, choosing to enjoy the happenings of the event as spectators and avoiding the BS thrown around by unthinking management types. Alienating enough people became clear to other organization officials and the offenders were, shall we say, moved on. The once alienated vols returned to their previous tasks which they performed with their typical passionate enthusiasm. But success of events dependent on volunteers depends on the culture established within the paid staff of an organization. Critically, some younger and short-time volunteers had been put off and did not return. This became a trend which cannot be afforded when organizers count on volunteers to pull off the event. Management's behavior will attract or repel good volunteers. The alternative is to have every worker on the payroll. That is unsustainable unless you are absolutely depending on gate receipts, entry fees, etc. which will necessarily rise until out of sight. 

[mariner]

Just pre COVID lockdown in early 2019 I was involved in racing cost benchmarking exercise with one of the big UK clubs. I cant , unfortunately share the info. here but as part of it a 1970's competitor  kindly supplied his very detailed racing cost diaries. It was possible to inflate these to 2019 costs using both cost inflation and  wage inflation. It was sample of one but as the class has not really changed its regulations in all that time so a reasonably valid comparision  I believe.

 

The big message was that racing today  ( in that class) is no more expensive today in cost terms than in  1970's. Versus wages it is a bit cheaper. Maybe not what rose tinted spectacles might lead you to think. 

 

However, and relevant to this thread, the constituents of the costs have changed a lot. Engine and tyre costs went down in constant prices but entry and admin costs went up so much as to balance those savings out.

 

The engine and tyre reductions are mainly due to modern engine power regulation  stopping  heavy tuning and tyres became an affordable control tyre.

 

Exactly  WHY the entry and admin costs rose isn't so clear but it may simply e that as spectator  attendances fell off  the tracks simply raised  rental fees and made the club entrants pay more.

 

That is a bit tenuous but maybe the loss of spectators has raised competitors costs  over time?

Edited by mariner, 05 September 2021 - 14:27.

[opplock]

Entry fees have increased in last 30 years but in terms of £ per mile are probably lower in club racing. In Caterhams for example we used to get 15 minutes practice and a 10 lap race, 8 at Oulton Park. A dry race at Brands or Mallory lasted 9 minutes. All for £150 in 1994. Competitors now get longer practice sessions and two 20 to 30 minute races. 

[Doug Nye]

That is encouraging to hear.  All I have heard thus far is of diminishing activity costing owner/driver/entrants proportionately more each passing year.  Have I been misinformed?

 

DCN

[BRG]

Exactly  WHY the entry and admin costs rose isn't so clear

 

A big element of that may be all the regulatory stuff that has been laid on by both MSA (MS-UK) and government in terms of training of officials, more equipment and so on and all the H & S rules.  These all add to the overhead costs.  Not saying these are bad things, but we didn't have them in the good old, bad old days

[john aston]

There is a hugely thriving motorsport community in the UK . but you need to know where to find it, as racing especially is spread across too many different series and , as ever , venues compete against each other . Club racing can still be great , but the offering to Joe Public hasn't changed much for fifty years . That often means hopeless , badly composed and overpriced programmes , nowhere for the kids to play(except Cadwell - well done MSV ) , crap food (people are more likely to want decent coffee and a Pret sandwich than the gunk and burgers served up still )  , endless delays , long lunch breaks , PA silences,  and no sense of occasion . 

 

Go to Santa Pod and you find constant action, funny and informative commentary , super programmes telling you what you need to know rather than some arcane guff about class regulations ,and a fantastic buzz . Even the food is  better than you'd endure at a Croft clubbie . 

 

Speed hill climbs offer super days out and have a wonderful, garden party air  in lovely surroundings . And if you want raw action , with a partisan crowd and amazing spectacle , go to a big Autograss meet . Instead of the hyper regulated world we endure at circuits it's incredibly laid back. Park where you want, set up the barbecue  and take the kids and labradoodle too. And it just works . 

 

If you want a big crowd then involve them - Time Attack is mainly amateur hour on track , but the crowd is huge because car clubs and groups (especially from the more tribal JDM community ) are actively welcomed to show off their cars in the car parks , and there's music too. 

 

We create an imagined past sometimes - I've been researching Rufforth recently, and I remember thrilling , action packed races with never a dull moment. But , when I reread reports and programmes I see often tiny grids and huge winning margins . I still loved it , but youth adds a glister to any experience.      

Edited by john aston, 08 September 2021 - 06:18.