62 replies to this topic

[le chat noir]

With the highly likely prospect of Russell teaming up with Hamilton in 2022, how rare and how valuable is it for a young driver, greatly anticipated to be future WDC material, to team up with the current master?

It’s not like Hamilton & Rosberg who were contemporaries. Perhaps more similar to Hamilton & Alonso, though Alonso was still of similar age, of the same generation.

The closest we may have come recently was Kimi joining Ferrari, but only if he’d done so in place of Massa.

Hill & Senna, but sadly not for long. Prost & Lauda perhaps?

Hamilton hasn’t been the most welcoming to date, hurrying back from his illness last year without any good wishes before or after, and constant praise for Bottas since. So will he provide the harmony he wants and share his data and practices, or treat him as a foe? And will Russell be the student, or think he already knows best?

Good article in The Times:

https://www.thetimes...cedes-qn2k0v676

[Spillage]

I guess the best case scenario would be something like the master-student relationship shared by Fangio and Moss, or more recently perhaps Schumacher and Massa.

The worst case would be Alonso and Hamilton or Prost and Senna. But neither is a perfect match as Alonso wasn't 'old' in 2007 and ne was Senna really 'young' in 1988, by modern standards anyway.

One thing I think we'll hear a lot about is Russell's 'inexperience' and how he needs to learn because of that. But in reality he's entering his fourth season and isn't really inexperienced at all. Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso were all world champions on or before their fourth full season. I think he'll be up to speed very quickly.

Edited by Spillage, 02 September 2021 - 20:42.

[eibyyz]

Andretti-Nilsson.  Scheckter-Villeneuve.  Lauda-Piquet.  Schu-Eddie. (I'm dating myself...)

[messy]

Verstappen and Ricciardo. I know Danny wasn’t exactly old when Max came into the team - what was he, 27? But still - 17 year old Max came in and clearly learnt a lot from him right from the getgo. They generally seemed to get on, Max learnt a lot about qualifying speed from Daniel (remember those days where Max’s one-lap pace was seen as his weakness?!) and gradually got on terms, then got on top of him. Inevitably that ended up with Ricciardo leaving, but only after three pretty fruitful and outwardly harmonious seasons.

I think Hamilton and Russell will be fine. Lewis is sticking up for Bottas, of course he is, because the two of them have clearly got on well and worked well together and the world and his wife are handing him his P45. I doubt that means he wouldn’t welcome George in. Lewis seems like a pretty uncomplicated team-mate to have.

Edited by messy, 02 September 2021 - 21:16.

[cpbell]

 Fangio with Collins, Castelotti and Musso, also, Fangio with Moss.

Edited by cpbell, 02 September 2021 - 21:18.

[Myrvold]

Hill & Senna, but sadly not for long.

 

I get the "inexperienced with experienced WDC" thing. But then Hill & Prost would be better as Hill had less experience. However, Prost was born in 1955, Senna in 1960 and Hill in 1960. Not much of young gun and old hand pairings.

[Collombin]

And Villeneuve was older than Scheckter (although not at the time).

[Risil]

(I'm dating myself...)

Well that way you cut the bill for dinner and drinks in half, I suppose.

[DeKnyff]

A clear relationship of master and learner was that of Stewart and Cevert at Tyrrell in the early seventies. Very sadly, it couldn't have a continuity after Stewart retired.

[garoidb]

Maybe Mario and Michael Andretti at Newman Haas in the late 80s? 

[red stick]

Bobby Unser and Rick Mears, though Unser would never admit it.

[milestone 11]

And Villeneuve was older than Scheckter (although not at the time).

Well played sir.

[garoidb]

Another one would be Nelson Piquet and Roberto Moreno at Benetton in 1990 and 1991. It didn't work out for Roberto, of course, but I would think the good intentions were there.

[FirstnameLastname]

I still think there’s a chance that if hamilton gets the 2021 title, he’ll pull a Rosberg and ‘pass on the baton’ to George.

[dave34m]

I was thinking of the Alonso Hamilton relationship would be similar even if the ages aren't correct. I remember at the time thinking that Hamilton should have spent the first year learning from the double world champion before unleashing a title bit in 2008 but of course that didn't happen. It will interesting to see how next year plays out and how the team manages it all. 

[P123]

With the highly likely prospect of Russell teaming up with Hamilton in 2022, how rare and how valuable is it for a young driver, greatly anticipated to be future WDC material, to team up with the current master?

It’s not like Hamilton & Rosberg who were contemporaries. Perhaps more similar to Hamilton & Alonso, though Alonso was still of similar age, of the same generation.

The closest we may have come recently was Kimi joining Ferrari, but only if he’d done so in place of Massa.

Hill & Senna, but sadly not for long. Prost & Lauda perhaps?

Hamilton hasn’t been the most welcoming to date, hurrying back from his illness last year without any good wishes before or after, and constant praise for Bottas since. So will he provide the harmony he wants and share his data and practices, or treat him as a foe? And will Russell be the student, or think he already knows best?

Good article in The Times:

https://www.thetimes...cedes-qn2k0v676

 
Hakkinen and Senna, Hill and Prost (although not sure if at that stage Damon was considered of WDC potential), Leclerc and Vettel.... 
 
Merc don't allow drivers to hide data, so I'd say anything like that is a non-starter.  And GR has been with them for years and done testing.  I doubt there are as many 'secrets' going in as some would suspect.  George has already shown in Sakhir last year that he can drive what was basically a Lewis setup well, so in terms of car development I wouldn't be surprised to see them both gel quite well.
 
https://www.formula1...B3h7qx9QWS.html
 
I get that for many Lewis wasn't as effusive of George's performance from his sick bed as the online 24hr news cycle may have demanded.  And he returned at the next race, which was also perceived as bad because we all wanted to see how GR would fair again.  Not because LH was a racing driver who may have wanted to race his car.
 
And sure, he's been supportive of Bottas, but that shouldn't equate to him stealing all of the pens as well as the keys to Brackley to prevent GR signing.  He's not about to Webber VB, if that is the expectation.
 
For those who need some warm fuzzy words:
 

"The only highlight from last week was his qualifying lap - it was amazing," Hamilton said. "He is humble. He has a great approach. Being British I would imagine probably helps in terms of communication.[/size]
"At the moment, naturally I have to be super-supportive of the team mate I have right now. So that's why I'm always supportive of Valtteri - because we have a job to do right now. Neither of us can win the team championship alone. We have to do it collectively.
"George has already shown incredible driving and I'm sure he's going to continue to grow. So where better to do it than in a great team like this, or whatever team he goes to?"

[noikeee]

I think there's a bit of unease between them and they'll inevitably clash. Not all out war but maybe something like Leclerc against Vettel which is the most recent example. It was a cordial relationship that sometimes clashed on track because Charles had to try to assert himself.

I don't think it'll be the "apprenticeship" kind of relationship where the old man teaches the young guy all the tricks. Like Michael Schumacher with Felipe Massa. I think it'll be competition between two athletes both trying to win the world championship for themselves. How painful it'll be I can't tell you. Maybe it'll be very bad. Maybe the problems won't even arise if they're not on the same level of performance, imagine George can't even get close to Lewis. But even if there's pain, it's something Mercedes need to go through, they can't rely on Lewis to be there forever.

Edited by noikeee, 02 September 2021 - 22:43.

[as65p]

As I said in the Merc thread, it basically all depends on how good Russel really is. If he can match Hamilton speed-wise, there is about as much reason for him to hold back as there was for Hamilton in 2007. Also known as no reason.

It would only make sense for Russel to play the nice no.2 if he can't match Lewis anyway. Then it would be smart to play the team game, maybe. But it would also mean he's more like what Massa was to Schumacher than what Hamilton was to Alonso, i.e. NOT "the next big thing".

[alframsey]

I still think there’s a chance that if hamilton gets the 2021 title, he’ll pull a Rosberg and ‘pass on the baton’ to George.

I don’t think he will, he’s made no bones about wanting to drive these next generation of cars. He is around until his contract ends imo

[loki]

With the highly likely prospect of Russell teaming up with Hamilton in 2022,

 

Didn’t know Hamilton was moving to Williams…

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

   

[TecnoRacing]

What's the largest age gap between 'regular' teammates (excluding 1-offs etc)?

 

~13 years Hamilton/Russell has got to be getting up there. That's more than Schumacher/Massa, Hill/Stewart and Brabham/McLaren etc...

Edited by TecnoRacing, 03 September 2021 - 01:01.

[MasterOfCoin]

What's the largest age gap between 'regular' teammates (excluding 1-offs etc)?

 

~13 years Hamilton/Russell has got to be getting up there. That's more than Schumacher/Massa, Hill/Stewart and Brabham/McLaren etc...

Schumacher/Rosberg 16 years.....

[solochamp07]

What about JV and Damon? MS and Nico, to lesser fanfare perhaps.

[SB]

Schumacher and Massa in Ferrari ?

[Aaaarrgghh]

What's the largest age gap between 'regular' teammates (excluding 1-offs etc)?

 

~13 years Hamilton/Russell has got to be getting up there. That's more than Schumacher/Massa, Hill/Stewart and Brabham/McLaren etc...

There was 20 years between the aforementioned Fangio and Collins, that's got to be up there.

[Rediscoveryx]

What's the largest age gap between 'regular' teammates (excluding 1-offs etc)?

 

~13 years Hamilton/Russell has got to be getting up there. That's more than Schumacher/Massa, Hill/Stewart and Brabham/McLaren etc...

 

Alonso-Ocon is 15 years

[TecnoRacing]

Schumacher/Rosberg 16 years.....

Alonso-Ocon is 15 years

Indeed, not sure why they didn't spring immediately to mind!

 

Interestingly the dynamic in both these cases was/is slightly different, with the 'old' Champions returning with perhaps a bit less expectation, looking to re-establish themselves.

 

With Lewis/George we have the clear battle between established superstar vs young (and for sure not deferential) hot-shoe.

[Rediscoveryx]

Indeed, not sure why they didn't spring immediately to mind!

 

Interestingly the dynamic in both these cases was/is slightly different, with the 'old' Champions returning with perhaps a bit less expectation, looking to re-establish themselves.

 

With Lewis/George we have the clear battle between established superstar vs young (and for sure not deferential) hot-shoe.

 

Yeah, it's not really a comparable situation. This'll be more similar to Prost-Alesi, or Vettel-Leclerc.

[le chat noir]

Indeed, not sure why they didn't spring immediately to mind!

Interestingly the dynamic in both these cases was/is slightly different, with the 'old' Champions returning with perhaps a bit less expectation, looking to re-establish themselves.

With Lewis/George we have the clear battle between established superstar vs young (and for sure not deferential) hot-shoe.

It’s this dynamic that’s going to be really interesting. Very rare for the incumbent champion to be partnered by the young hot prospect.

It’s Prost joining Lauda and Senna joining Prost type stuff but with a greater generational difference. Almost a statement that Hamilton’s expendable.

Five races till fireworks I reckon. Spain say.

[Ali623]

George has had multiple seasons in F1 already and Hamilton will be 37. I think Russell will be looking to try and beat him as soon as he arrives - I think we could see a less chaotic Hamilton/Alonso situation. I could see them have a relatively non-relationship though, almost like Norris/Ricciardo has had so far, not hating each other but far from buddies.

[le chat noir]

George has had multiple seasons in F1 already and Hamilton will be 37. I think Russell will be looking to try and beat him as soon as he arrives - I think we could see a less chaotic Hamilton/Alonso situation. I could see them have a relatively non-relationship though, almost like Norris/Ricciardo has had so far, not hating each other but far from buddies.

Has Hamilton had a courteous relationship with a competitive teammate?

Added to which, Russell clearly has a spark too.

Hamilton hasn’t calmed with age like Alonso now or Schumi’s Mercedes stint. He’s still on it. Toto will have his work cut out. And is he even staying on? Or is he buying Sauber?!

[noikeee]

Has Hamilton had a courteous relationship with a competitive teammate?

Added to which, Russell clearly has a spark too.

Hamilton hasn’t calmed with age like Alonso now or Schumi’s Mercedes stint. He’s still on it. Toto will have his work cut out. And is he even staying on? Or is he buying Sauber?!

 

Don't remember Lewis and Jenson getting along badly. At least it clearly went better than with Fernando and Nico. And Jenson even outright beat him one year.

 

They did clash a couple times (Canada and Turkey if I remember well) but it was all pretty cordial I think.

[Ali623]

Has Hamilton had a courteous relationship with a competitive teammate?

 

He was fine with Button for the most part - with Alonso he was a rookie and with Rosberg a large part of that breakdown stemmed from the fact they had been friends for so long

[garoidb]

George has had multiple seasons in F1 already and Hamilton will be 37. I think Russell will be looking to try and beat him as soon as he arrives - I think we could see a less chaotic Hamilton/Alonso situation. I could see them have a relatively non-relationship though, almost like Norris/Ricciardo has had so far, not hating each other but far from buddies.

 

Of course he will. Everything will depend on how they compare in terms of competitiveness as the season wears on. There might be an argument for prioritizing Lewis if he can be the more obvious championship contender by mid-season. If this were the scenario, some prioritization is more likely if there is a serious challenge from another driver/team. I expect George to throw everything at it from the beginning, though.

[le chat noir]

Not sure Russell is as jovial as Button. And he still has it all to prove. It’s going to be fun

[10kDA]

It will happen, but hard to say what it will look like. Stewart-Cevert or Bobby Unser-Rick Mears? Bobby Unser, to Rick Mears: "I'm not here to make Rick Mears fast." But he probably couldn't help himself. And at some time he probably said, and did, the same to younger brother Al.

[sheSgoTthElooK]

IMO Norris is better than Russell. He has far more talent and potential. And I do hope we get Mclaren back to the front row.

 

 

[cpbell]

A clear relationship of master and learner was that of Stewart and Cevert at Tyrrell in the early seventies. Very sadly, it couldn't have a continuity after Stewart retired.

Yes, what a pairing that was.

[cpbell]

I don’t think he will, he’s made no bones about wanting to drive these next generation of cars. He is around until his contract ends imo

Unless Lewis struggles in hot races next year with long Covid.

[garoidb]

A clear relationship of master and learner was that of Stewart and Cevert at Tyrrell in the early seventies. Very sadly, it couldn't have a continuity after Stewart retired.

 

Graham Hill and Jackie at BRM was another. There was more than a decade's age gap between those two, and the elder one was 36 or so at the outset.  

[aportinga]

I got this...

 

1993 - Ricardo Patrese and Michael Schumacher (Benetton=-Ford).

[Disgrace]

I think it should be interesting, if Russell is as good as I think he is. If he's good enough, Russell could similarly make it harder for Hamilton to take negotiations down to the wire for a big money short-term contract. Of course for different reasons, even Schumacher lost favour at Ferrari.

[as65p]

Don't remember Lewis and Jenson getting along badly. At least it clearly went better than with Fernando and Nico. And Jenson even outright beat him one year.

 

They did clash a couple times (Canada and Turkey if I remember well) but it was all pretty cordial I think.

Well, Jenson wasn't labeled the "smiling asassin" around here for nothing.

[Izzyeviel]

I got this...

 

1993 - Ricardo Patrese and Michael Schumacher (Benetton=-Ford).

 

I'm flabbergasted no-one has mentioned Brundle - Schumacher. Brundle even showed him the way to win Belgium '92.

 

Then we have the likes of Piquet & Nannini, Alesi & Heidfeld, Hill  & Schumacher, 

[Singularity]

I am fairly certain that Russel believes he is better than Hamilton and Lewis fear that it is true. That'd mean cards close to the chest and the only secrets that will be shared is the data provided by the engineers. Will contracts stipulate what will be shared or is that up to Toto to decide? 

[CoolBreeze]

Meh, Russell will not need Hamilton to lead him or guide him. He's not a rookie. For all you know he will start beating Hamilton on a regular basis.

[William Hunt]

I guess the best case scenario would be something like the master-student relationship shared by Fangio and Moss, or more recently perhaps Schumacher and Massa.

The worst case would be Alonso and Hamilton or Prost and Senna. But neither is a perfect match as Alonso wasn't 'old' in 2007 and ne was Senna really 'young' in 1988, by modern standards anyway.

One thing I think we'll hear a lot about is Russell's 'inexperience' and how he needs to learn because of that. But in reality he's entering his fourth season and isn't really inexperienced at all. Hamilton, Vettel and Alonso were all world champions on or before their fourth full season. I think he'll be up to speed very quickly.

 

That would be the worst case for their team but the best case for their fans. The Prost-Senna era was a highlight for fans who still speak about it today. One should certainly add Mansell-Piquet at Williams as a very toxic combination. Reutemann-Lauda at Ferrari in '77 was not exactly a good co-operation either, Lauda didn't like Reutemann at all and that was a bit of a toxic line-up too.  A new Prost-Senna situation would be just what the doctor ordered for F1 and that would get a lot of new fans in. 

 

Other examples of great relationships: Stewart-Cevert at Tyrrell '70-'73, Andretti-Peterson at Lotus '78, Villeneuve-Scheckter at Ferrari '79, Villeneuve-Pironi at Ferrari '80'-81, Chandhok- Bruno Senna at HRT (Hispania) '10, Berger & Senna at McLaren also had a great relationship. Berger & Alesi drove together both at Ferrari & Benetton and seemed to have a good relationship as well.

 

Niki Lauda-Nelson Piquet at Brabham in '79 and Stewart-Cevert at Tyrrell 70-73 are the two relationships that can best be described as closest to Fangio-Moss. Stewart absolutely adored François and the latter looked up to Jackie is his teacher. And Lauda & Piquet were always together during that year ('79) at Brabham and stayed friends the rest of their life. Nelson Piquet & Roberto Moreno at Benetton '91 is another example of a fantastic relationship between two drivers, they were like best friends. Lauda-Watson was a good relationship as well, but that was better during their time at McLaren as at Brabham. Their was a lot of respect between Lauda & Prost at McLaren in '84-'85 too. 

 

One of the best known partnerships at the 24 hours of Le Mans; Olivier Gendebien & Phil Hill at Ferrari. Jacky Ickx & Derek Bell was also an excellent partnership at Le Mans.

 

and other toxic ones: Villeneuve-Pironi '82 at Ferrari or Arnoux-Prost at Renault '82, Reutemann-Jones at Williams '81, Schumacher-Herbert at Benetton '95, Mansell-Prost at Ferrari '90

Edited by William Hunt, 07 September 2021 - 04:47.

[Dratini]

I am fairly certain that Russel believes he is better than Hamilton and Lewis fear that it is true. That'd mean cards close to the chest and the only secrets that will be shared is the data provided by the engineers. Will contracts stipulate what will be shared or is that up to Toto to decide? 

I doubt that's the case. Russell might well be better, we don't know at the moment, but Lewis has tremendous self-belief. I don't think for one second he considers the idea that anyone is better than he is
 

[Dimocash]

 

 

and other toxic ones: Villeneuve-Pironi '82 at Ferrari or Arnoux-Prost at Renault '82, Reutemann-Jones at Williams '81, Schumacher-Herbert at Benetton '95, Mansell-Prost at Ferrari '90

What feud did they have?
I never heard of that. Do you have more information?
I followed F1 at that time already but didn't have much information as I didn't have internet acces.

[cpbell]

What feud did they have?
I never heard of that. Do you have more information?
I followed F1 at that time already but didn't have much information as I didn't have internet acces.

Having heard Johnny discussing that year, his dislike was for Flavio.