113 replies to this topic

[A3]

Well, no, it was not an "overtake for the lead" in Zandvoort, because Bottas was only ahead because he had not yet pitted. Even if the pass had not happened, Max was 100% guaranteed to finish ahead. Regardless of whether you feel those other overtakes were entirely predictable, they were genuine passes for the position.

 

Still a 2 vs 1 situation. Had Bottas not made that error he might have helped Lewis much more.

 

You can argue that a car passing another car on much newer tyres isn't a genuine pass either. 

 

I mean, Max proved in 2016 he could hold off a faster car for many laps but when there's a tyre difference there's no chance. If people get excited by that, well... I hold a different view.

Edited by A3, 07 September 2021 - 07:08.

[Gareth]

I think both races were super, there are perfectly valid reasons why someone might prefer one over the other, and that attempting to prove that one was better than the other because the other was rubbish is a really uninteresting conversation.

 

Loved both races.

[A3]

Yeah me too but for different reasons.

[zanquis]

It wasn't really 'for the lead' though was it?

Still more critical for the race win than Lewis driving past Charles.

[AmonGods]

Put these fans and the great atmosphere at monaco. Whould you also call it a great place to race?

[GentlemanDriver091]

Put these fans and the great atmosphere at monaco. Whould you also call it a great place to race?

Monaco is a great place to race, ask the drivers. Great racing isn’t determined by the number of overtakes, in my opinion.

That said, there was a decent amount of overtaking in Zandvoort.

[smitten]

Still more critical for the race win than Lewis driving past Charles.

WTAF?

 

Passing the leader for the lead in the last few laps of the race is somehow less critical than passing somebody who is a pit-stop behind you?

[MasterOfCoin]

WTAF?

 

Passing the leader for the lead in the last few laps of the race is somehow less critical than passing somebody who is a pit-stop behind you?

Ageed....that's some alternate reality logic, 

[zanquis]

WTAF?

 

Passing the leader for the lead in the last few laps of the race is somehow less critical than passing somebody who is a pit-stop behind you?

 

Ageed....that's some alternate reality logic, 

 

 

It isn't so much alternate reality logic. it is actually using logic and thinking about how likely is this action going happen.

Lewis passing Max for the lead in Barcelona? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with around a second a lap and that was Lewis pacing himself, he had speed to spare. Max is good but he can't defend against Lewis on much fresher tires.

Lewis passing Charles for the lead in Silverstone? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with almost a second a lap, Charles drove amazing but his Ferrari had issues and he knew it didn't even put up a fight with Lewis.
Max passing Valttari for the lead in Zandvoort? The pass itself wasn't exciting because it wasn't a question if Max would pass Valttari, but it was more interesting to see if Valttari could slow him down enough for Lewis to benefit.

So yeah it doesn't take much to see that what Valttari had to do could potentially set up the undercut for Lewis or had he lasted 1 lap more, he could maybe be able to block Max while opening the door to Lewis. There was way more uncertainty about what would happen in Zandvoort than Spain and Silverstone combined.

Edited by zanquis, 09 September 2021 - 12:30.

[shure]

It isn't so much alternate reality logic. it is actually using logic and thinking about how likely is this action going happen.

Lewis passing Max for the lead in Barcelona? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with around a second a lap and that was Lewis pacing himself, he had speed to spare. Max is good but he can't defend against Lewis on much fresher tires.

Lewis passing Charles for the lead in Silverstone? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with almost a second a lap, Charles drove amazing but his Ferrari had issues and he knew it didn't even put up a fight with Lewis.
Max passing Valttari for the lead in Zandvoort? The pass itself wasn't exciting because it wasn't a question if Max would pass Valttari, but it was more interesting to see if Valttari could slow him down enough for Lewis to benefit.

So yeah it doesn't take much to see that what Valttari had to do could potentially set up the undercut for Lewis or had he lasted 1 lap more, he could maybe be able to block Max while opening the door to Lewis. There was way more uncertainty about what would happen in Zandvoort than Spain and Silverstone combined.

I kind of agree with you, except that I think the pass in Zandvoort was exciting, for two reasons.  One, Max had Lewis hunting him and could not afford to be held up, being caught in Merc's strategic pincer; and two, he had to fight the dirty air and took a risk - look at the corrections he was making coming out of the corner and he nearly lost it.  I think it was a great pass, personally, because so much was at stake.  It probably decided the result.

[MasterOfCoin]

It isn't so much alternate reality logic. it is actually using logic and thinking about how likely is this action going happen.

Lewis passing Max for the lead in Barcelona? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with around a second a lap and that was Lewis pacing himself, he had speed to spare. Max is good but he can't defend against Lewis on much fresher tires.

Lewis passing Charles for the lead in Silverstone? Zero excitement because he was closing in easily with almost a second a lap, Charles drove amazing but his Ferrari had issues and he knew it didn't even put up a fight with Lewis.
Max passing Valttari for the lead in Zandvoort? The pass itself wasn't exciting because it wasn't a question if Max would pass Valttari, but it was more interesting to see if Valttari could slow him down enough for Lewis to benefit.

So yeah it doesn't take much to see that what Valttari had to do could potentially set up the undercut for Lewis or had he lasted 1 lap more, he could maybe be able to block Max while opening the door to Lewis. There was way more uncertainty about what would happen in Zandvoort than Spain and Silverstone combined.

I don't see how anyone watching this race would believe Valttati could potentially set up the undercut for Lewis, and that's assuming the pitwall's been paying attention......Lewis had a better chance of a lapped driver blocking Max, than Valttari blocking Max..... 

[hansmann]

I found it fun to watch the cars move on the track for a while, with the banking and a few other track specific features, but it wasn't a decent race .

 

Whatever the number of overtakes, if that is a thing now, about half of them were probably done by Perez in a car completely out of position, and the rest were similar .

Just faster cars that finally managed to break out of one of the many trains we saw in that race , or a clear tyre advantage after a pit stop .

 

Apart from no real overtaking battles and the resulting trains, the track is so short and tight, that backmarker traffic was an issue from early on - it was really crowded on that tarmac .

 

So for me it's a thumbs down for Zandvoort ; it might be a viable option for other racing series, but it's not suitable for F1 .

Just too cramped, limiting and boring .

[zanquis]

I don't see how anyone watching this race would believe Valttati could potentially set up the undercut for Lewis, and that's assuming the pitwall's been paying attention......Lewis had a better chance of a lapped driver blocking Max, than Valttari blocking Max.....

Simply put, had Valttari been able to hold Max for 1 more straight, but which was likely if not for his mistake, Lewis would have been right on Max bumper with Max not being able to easily pass him.

[zanquis]

I found it fun to watch the cars move on the track for a while, with the banking and a few other track specific features, but it wasn't a decent race .

Whatever the number of overtakes, if that is a thing now, about half of them were probably done by Perez in a car completely out of position, and the rest were similar .
Just faster cars that finally managed to break out of one of the many trains we saw in that race , or a clear tyre advantage after a pit stop .

Apart from no real overtaking battles and the resulting trains, the track is so short and tight, that backmarker traffic was an issue from early on - it was really crowded on that tarmac .

So for me it's a thumbs down for Zandvoort ; it might be a viable option for other racing series, but it's not suitable for F1 .
Just too cramped, limiting and boring .

Many trains? If there for me was a key element in the race was that the cars in relevant positions where so spread that you couldn’t call it a train. Maybe I didn’t look much past to top 10 but at front lack of overtakes was mostly because no driver got close to keeping up with the car ahead except Alonso.