66 replies to this topic

[OO7]

At Zandvoort I think you needed DRS  + a car about 1.5 sec a lap faster or a car 2+ sec a lap faster 

 

For a 1m10s circuit that is a ridiculous gap needed

It really is crazy!

 

I feel it may be seen as a normal part of F1 racing (which it is) but also part of an elitist mindset that believes when a driver makes such a pass (assuming it wasn't a drive by), it was something special, after all overtaking in F1 is so difficult and rare.  I don't see it like that at all, generally overtaking in F1 is impossible between similar car, then circumstances such as tyre offsets create opportunities that are more commonplace in other racing series.  In MotoGP you sometimes hear rides comment about how difficult it is to overtake at a particular circuit.  The difference compared to F1 is that although it can be difficult, it's rarely ever impossible.  In F1 impossible is the norm.

[OO7]

And many races post DRS have been boring snooze fests because drivers in the top cars breeze past the field without any effort whatsoever if they happen to find themselves in the back. The balance must be closer to difficult overtaking over DRS cruise-by’s.

Why are you so concerned about the situation of a driver in a top car, that on the odd occasion happens to be down the order, isn't it better to focus on cars of similar performance?  After the front running car manages to get up into 4th place for example, the safety car is deployed because of debris on track and the field bunches up so that P1, 2 and 3 that were twenty seconds up the road, are now right in front.  With twenty two laps remaining the safety car pulls in and the race is underway again.  For the next 22 laps after coming through the field, we watch the P4 car maintain 1.5 - 2 seconds behind the P3 car, is that not a snooze fest?

Edited by OO7, 08 September 2021 - 22:26.

[OO7]

AMuS (Michael Schmidt) was talking about 1.2 seconds delta needed for an overtake.

I'd be very surprised if it was that low, having said that, 1.2 seconds is still massive.

[OO7]

Some nuance here. What you need is to be quicker in the part of the track where overtaking is possible. If you are 2 sec a lap faster, but dog slow in the straights, then it doesn't matter. You can't run into the back of your rival in the corners.

You really need to be quicker everywhere.  You need to be significantly quicker through the corners so that the extra grip mitigates the loss of downforce you'll experience from the car ahead.  This extra grip will also help build momentum through the corner and subsequently the straight in which the pass is planned.

Edited by OO7, 08 September 2021 - 18:52.

[Ivanhoe]

Alonso: Zandvoort not the worst track for overtaking

[OO7]

Alonso: Zandvoort not the worst track for overtaking

I don't think anyone here suggested Zandvoort is the worst track for overtaking (Monaco anyone?), however he does mention the lack of tyre degradation and management as playing a part.  So essentially he's saying the lack of a tyre offset was a big issue.

[Ivanhoe]

I don't think anyone here suggested Zandvoort is the worst track for overtaking (Monaco anyone?), however he does mention the lack of tyre degradation and management as playing a part.  So essentially he's saying the lack of a tyre offset was a big issue.

I know OO7, just quoted the title of the article.

[OO7]

Exactly. The hope with the new cars is that the following car will lose less grip through the corners and they’ll be closer to getting into the slipstream which should allow for a legitimate overtaking opportunity.

That's the hope.  I think racing will be better next year, but there're still question marks around some aspects of the 2022 cars for me.

[nivoglibina]

Will the front wing still be huge, like it is now, next year?

If so I don't have a lot of hope of things changing much.

I know the regualtions are partly aimed at creating less dirty air -so that might help- but if you still depend on a functioning front wing I fear it won't help enough.

[MikeTekRacing]

Will the front wing still be huge, like it is now, next year?

If so I don't have a lot of hope of things changing much.

I know the regualtions are partly aimed at creating less dirty air -so that might help- but if you still depend on a functioning front wing I fear it won't help enough.

I think the front wing is way less effective than it is this year so losing front downforce won't be that critical.

[Ivanhoe]

Will the front wing still be huge, like it is now, next year?

If so I don't have a lot of hope of things changing much.

I know the regualtions are partly aimed at creating less dirty air -so that might help- but if you still depend on a functioning front wing I fear it won't help enough.

FWIW

4. The front wing and nose concept have been completely re-thought

Although front wings have been getting progressively simpler in recent seasons, the 2022 F1 car will feature a totally new front wing shape.

Keeping with the philosophy of the 2022 car, the new front wing’s job is to both generate consistent downforce when running closely behind another car, and ensure that the front wheel wake is well controlled and directed down the car in the least disruptive way.

[MikeTekRacing]

I'd be very surprised if it was that low, having said that, 1.2 seconds is still massive.

it means there is no chance to have overtakes unless a car is severely out of his group (like Perez was) or on a huge tyre offset (Max vs Bottas).

Otherwise it's a borefest with DRS 

[ArrowsLivery]

Why are you so concerned the situation of a driver in a top car that on the odd occasion happens to be down the order, isn't it better to focus on cars of similar performance?  After the front running car manages to get up into 4th place for example, the safety car is deployed because of debris on track and the field bunches up so that P1, 2 and 3 that were twenty seconds up the road, are now right in front.  With twenty two laps remaining the safety car pulls in and the race is underway again.  For the next 22 lap after coming through the field, we watch the P4 maintain 1.5 - 2 second behind the P3, is that not a snooze fest?

There is very rarely any passing with cars of similar performance. That is why there are often DRS trains in the midfield, because there are often many cars with roughly the same performance and they can’t get past one another. In your example, I would prefer for P4 to REALLY have to work to get the pass, rather than getting it easily by pressing a button.

 

That is the problem with DRS, it was invented to help the top cars get ahead of the midfield after Alonso spent an entire race stuck behind Petrov. It’s almost never lead to a pass between cars of equal performance.

[kumo7]

With DRS on the banking all cars will still follow the traditional racing line.

 

Sounds like a truth, but is it anything more than an empirical judgement? You have not delivered any arguments to support it.

[redreni]

The Arie Luyendyk corner is not to be messed with.

 

I was there, unfortunately, at the FIA Masters Historic F1 race a couple of years ago when David Ferrer had an accident in that corner and had to be taken straight to the hospital and thence to the morgue. There was very little of his car left after the crash. That was in a March 701 from 1970, admittedly, and I concede a driver having a similar accident in a 2022 F1 car would have a much better chance of surviving (despite the higher speed). Anyone losing it on the exit there, however, is likely to have a really very violent accident.

 

Personally my main take-home from the Dutch GP was that the first lap was terrifying when people were running at close quarters and banging wheels, and then the rest of the race was extremely dull. The performance of the cars is just way above what the track was designed to cope with and I was relieved the ability of the barriers to protect the spectators wasn't really tested. It looks pretty dicey to me in that regard.

[PayasYouRace]

The Arie Luyendyk corner is not to be messed with.

 

I was there, unfortunately, at the FIA Masters Historic F1 race a couple of years ago when David Ferrer had an accident in that corner and had to be taken straight to the hospital and thence to the morgue. There was very little of his car left after the crash. That was in a March 701 from 1970, admittedly, and I concede a driver having a similar accident in a 2022 F1 car would have a much better chance of surviving (despite the higher speed). Anyone losing it on the exit there, however, is likely to have a really very violent accident.

 

 

It's a different corner now, though you obviously take that extra level of risk when driving a car from the most dangerous period of F1 history.

 

But the corner is very much an acceleration zone today, and the risk of losing control is much reduced. On top of that, the single-row tyre barrier and armco has been replaced by a safer type wall.

 

Just compare the frankly unacceptable barriers at the time of his crash (You can't really see the accident in the picture, but I've put it in spoilers if you don't wish to see.)...

 

Spoiler

 

...to the corner today.

 

It, like the old Tamburello, is a corner no F1 driver could make a mistake in, but there's always the danger of some mechanical issue causing a crash. I'm not unduly worried.

[Michkov]

Finally some interesting use for DRS, can you imagine cars in low downforce configuration through the twisty bits out of Hugenholtz and into Scheivlak? I might get excited again watching F1 if they implemented it.