142 replies to this topic

[loki]

The timing of this and the rumours of F1 possibly playing hardball with Monaco (the Rencken article) is... intriguing, to say the least.

 

Roger Benoit has been covering F1 for a long time, though and is a legitimate journalist. That being said, I think both these stories need to be put in juxtaposition and that one is the answer to the other. No idea about the source of these stories, of course, but I think one is a smoke show (or a smokescreen) because of the other.

Hadn’t though of the diversion angle.  I’m surprised there hasn’t been more press on the Monaco thing.

[r4mses]

[...]

 

Having said that, we have enough races in Arab nations, we need more in Asia, one in Africa, and more importantly than where the race is, is that the track is a good one.

 

The problem is, people in Asia apparently just do not care about F1 - except for Japan.

 

South Korea, India were short lived. And the only reason China was there way longer is because they somehow didn't want to lose face - which still happend when looking at those empty stands with letters all over them rather then specators.

 

Singapore is/was a different story imo, as it's the night race of F1.

 

Not sure about Malaysia.

Edited by r4mses, 18 September 2021 - 09:51.

[FirstnameLastname]

They got competition if Liberty do wish to sell on… Netflix would be interested in the rights.

And I’d be interested in them getting them too!

https://www.motorspo...-races/6672924/

[Risil]

The problem is, people in Asia apparently just do not care about F1 - except for Japan.

 

South Korea, India were short lived. And the only reason China was there way longer is because they somehow didn't want to lose face - which still happend when looking at those empty stands with letters all over them rather then specators.

 

Singapore is/was a different story imo, as it's the night race of F1.

 

Not sure about Malaysia.

 

The crowds at Sepang for the MotoGP are big, sustainable and hugely enthusiastic so there's no doubt that motor racing has a constituency in Malaysia. Might need the right promotion and/or a local driver, as in Spain.

[milestone 11]

The Spanish haven't taken to Sainz at all, there's no enthusiasm for him whatsoever.

[AustinF1]

Re: Netflix, I suspect posturing. But who knows ...

[statman]

side note:

 

[@SAMF_GOV] The Saudi Arabian Motor Federation and The FIA Introduce The Young Drivers Training & Development Programme

Edited by statman, 03 October 2021 - 09:42.

[BRG]

The Spanish haven't taken to Sainz at all, there's no enthusiasm for him whatsoever.

They will warm to him if and when he wins races.  At the moment, it is all about the great Alonso!  

 

Although I thought rally driver Carlos Sainz Sr was pretty popular in Spain in his day;  it doesn't seem  to have carried over to the son though.

[William Hunt]

That's because the first big star in a country in a specific sport can never be emulated in terms of popularity, not even by someone who turns out  to be more succesful. Exactly because he was the first so this is normal, the first one was the trend setter. And it can take a long time before this effects diminishes.

Edited by William Hunt, 04 October 2021 - 10:34.

[Rinehart]

The problem is, people in Asia apparently just do not care about F1 - except for Japan.

 

South Korea, India were short lived. And the only reason China was there way longer is because they somehow didn't want to lose face - which still happend when looking at those empty stands with letters all over them rather then specators.

 

Singapore is/was a different story imo, as it's the night race of F1.

 

Not sure about Malaysia.

 

Singapore is a different story because it's full of expats, its an international business hub AND its downtown - it would be just as successful if it was a day race. Pretty sure a race would be extremely successful if you had it in downtown Hong Kong, Shanghai, Dubai or Tel Aviv too... so this isn't about Asia/Middle-East not being interested in F1 per se, it's about races in provincial places, and even 100 miles from those, not being a recipe for success. Similarly a race in downtown Miami is likely to be more successful than Austin for similar reasons. The only place F1 can go race in the middle of nowhere successfully is in its European heartland. 

[FortiFord]

They will warm to him if and when he wins races.  At the moment, it is all about the great Alonso!  

 

Although I thought rally driver Carlos Sainz Sr was pretty popular in Spain in his day;  it doesn't seem  to have carried over to the son though.

 

I think the dynamic will end up similar to what Germany had with Schumacher and Vettel. 

 

Vettel was never as popular as Schumacher and couldn't draw the crowds despite his success. 

[Risil]

Singapore is a different story because it's full of expats, its an international business hub AND its downtown - it would be just as successful if it was a day race. Pretty sure a race would be extremely successful if you had it in downtown Hong Kong, Shanghai, Dubai or Tel Aviv too... so this isn't about Asia/Middle-East not being interested in F1 per se, it's about races in provincial places, and even 100 miles from those, not being a recipe for success. Similarly a race in downtown Miami is likely to be more successful than Austin for similar reasons. The only place F1 can go race in the middle of nowhere successfully is in its European heartland. 

 

The MotoGP round at Sepang is tremendously popular so it clearly is possible to induce people in Asia to drive 45 mins out of their capital city to watch a race.

 

For me the most impressive feat is the number of people they get to watch the Argentinian MotoGP round, which really is in the sticks. But apparently Termas de Rio Hondo is a popular holiday destination, which probably helps.

[noikeee]

I've never been in Asia at all, so forgive me for trying to take cultural conclusions over places I have very little knowledge of. But it seems to me they just never culturally built the same connection to cars that we have in Europe or the Americas, possibly because of just how densely populated countries like China India Japan and South Korea are. Its not as if people can easily take a car through scenic winding roads like the Italians or French can, or flex the engine power muscles in a straight line like the Americans can with all that space in their laser straight wide roads.

Similar reasons to why football doesn't take off in China, where's the space for kids to practice, either on the streets like Brazil or on proper pitches, and with the insane cultural pressures of over-working who has time to take the kids to football practice?

[Risil]

No expert on Asian countries, except for the fact that it's best not to generalize about the world's largest and most populated continent, but Japan has a major car culture and the introduction of the Japanese Grand Prix in 1987 made the F1 calendar twice as good as it was before.

 

I think there are a lot of motor sport people who would like to make it take off in South Korea but beyond Hyundai and Hankook making successful forays into world championships, I'm not sure what's come of it.

 

The cliche about SE Asia is that they're into motorbikes in a big way, but then that used to be true of Japan in the 50s and 60s and things grew from there.

 

No idea about China, but probably you're not going get a thriving spontaneous motor racing culture in a communist state. And nobody really sets out to build one from the top down. I'm generalizing but the early history of motor sport in Europe was mostly car manufacturers trying to shut it down because it was expensive and the technology that won races was largely pointless but no one wanted to turn down the prestige and publicity, even though they knew they should. (Not so different to today -- just swap the MGU-H for 12-litre engines that no one would put in a touring car.) In China presumably that decision gets made for you by the party -- look at the brief rise and then suppression of the Chinese Super League in soccer -- and success in soccer is actually a strategic objective for the CPC.

[noikeee]

Yeah I do realise China and Japan and India are MASSIVELY different, and China and India are so huge they have massive cultural differences within the country nevermind compared to other countries. Not trying to offend anyone here by generalising "all of Asia". But it does strike me that motorsport is generally far bigger this side of the world and there has to be some reasons.

[BRG]

It may be that in Europe and the Americas, people were prosperous enough to have cars even as long ago as 100 years.  Car culture pervades 'Western' culture.  Racing the wretched things started as soon as they could go fast enough to outrun a pedestrian. 

 

In Asia generally, not so much.  Only the very rich could afford cars.  Even Japan didn't get a car culture until the post war economic boom gave folk there the disposable income necessary.  Now India, China, S Korea etc have caught up but car culture probably hasn't yet and maybe never will with EVs and autonomous cars on the horizon.

[pdac]

It may be that in Europe and the Americas, people were prosperous enough to have cars even as long ago as 100 years.  Car culture pervades 'Western' culture.  Racing the wretched things started as soon as they could go fast enough to outrun a pedestrian. 

 

In Asia generally, not so much.  Only the very rich could afford cars.  Even Japan didn't get a car culture until the post war economic boom gave folk there the disposable income necessary.  Now India, China, S Korea etc have caught up but car culture probably hasn't yet and maybe never will with EVs and autonomous cars on the horizon.

 

The development if 'car culture' also has a lot do with the countries being rich enough to build the infrastructure associated with cars (as opposed to vehicles that are primarily required for business purposes - which may include cars).

[Rinehart]

The MotoGP round at Sepang is tremendously popular so it clearly is possible to induce people in Asia to drive 45 mins out of their capital city to watch a race.

 

For me the most impressive feat is the number of people they get to watch the Argentinian MotoGP round, which really is in the sticks. But apparently Termas de Rio Hondo is a popular holiday destination, which probably helps.

You're talking about motorbikes that are evidently a LOT more popular to Malaysians than cars as the Malaysian GP literally fell of the F1 calendar because it wasn't popular. Or too expensive. Or both. 

And Argentina isn't in Asia...!

[Gravelngrass]

Why not? After all, it would have two of my favorite things in the world together: ridiculous amounts of money and monarchy…

[Rinehart]

Yeah I do realise China and Japan and India are MASSIVELY different, and China and India are so huge they have massive cultural differences within the country nevermind compared to other countries. Not trying to offend anyone here by generalising "all of Asia". But it does strike me that motorsport is generally far bigger this side of the world and there has to be some reasons.

 

Referring to this and your previous post; I don't think the geographies have anything to do with it and frankly, there is plenty of space to drive! Japan and Malaysia for instance both have amazing roads, I can say from first hand experience. 

Cars are "loved" in many parts of Asia, but I'm not sure there is much connection between a love of road cars and a love of F1. Anywhere, including the F1 paddock! 

I think it's about the presence of a hook and the patience to give time for the nationalistic interest to develop.

Europeans have shed loads of teams and drivers since it began to connect with. Japan has a longtime successful manufacturer, Brazil, Argentina and Australia have successful drivers, USA has a bit of both. All dating back many, many years. I think this explains their interest.

Whereas what have Malaysia or India or China got to be interested about? A booze or IT brand sponsor? I don't think that'll do it! India had a team, but it wasn't very successful. Malaysia had drivers, who weren't successful. As did India. China hasn't even got that far. So what is there for them to be interested in? Hamilton v Verstappen? But who are these people, to them? Are you interested in Fan Zhendong's next match? He's Chinas number 1 ping pong player, I've just googled...!

Meanwhile step forwards Emma Raducanu and Women's Tennis has suddenly become massively interesting to brits once more...

Bernie, having put India on the F1 calendar, was helped by the presence of an Indian F1 team and an Indian driver on the grid. But he gave it all of 3 years before declaring "India's not interested". Let's not dwell on the fact that corruption was at the heart of that race losing its place on the grid, but more importantly that its national driver and team were not that competitive, the circuit was 2 hrs from New Dehli and only 3 races is nowhere near enough time to build solid fanbase.

However had Narain Karthikeyan (miraculously) been fighting for a championship, I think we'd have seen the sort of Max-mania that has developed in Holland, happening in India. I'm sure of that. 

 

So to my mind the recipe is Try 5-10 years, a circuit within 30 minutes of downtown and a team and or driver that is actually fighting for the win.

I know Liberty values a potential Chinese GP winning driver as worth $2bn (basically would double F1 revenue). So I'm sure they'll continue trying...

 

 

 

 

[OvDrone]

I watch all Motorsports and I don't even like cars or bikes.

[William Hunt]

I've never been in Asia ...

 

Hi noikee, on a side note: I have been in Asia several times, also for backpacking. And I can warmly recommend it. I absolute LOVE it: the food, the culture, the mentality of the people. But cultures of Asian countries are also very very different between them. Thailand is very different from Vietnam, China, Taiwan or Japan (Japan is a country I haven't been too yet from those I mentioned though). If you ever get a chance to go there or have a holliday there: grab it with both hands. At one point I traveled from Vietnam to Taiwan and when I arrived in Taiwan I took the ultra modern bullet train to Taipe and when I arrived in Taipe one of the first things I saw was the 101 tower, back then still the highest building in the world (you can enter it as a visitor). So I went from the past (Vietnam) to the future (Taiwan) in a way: each Asian country is so different.

Edited by William Hunt, 05 October 2021 - 14:19.

[BiggestBuddyLazierFan]

Difference between Saudi Arabia and Taliban is only in their materialistic wealth.

[Risil]

You're talking about motorbikes that are evidently a LOT more popular to Malaysians than cars as the Malaysian GP literally fell of the F1 calendar because it wasn't popular. Or too expensive. Or both. 

And Argentina isn't in Asia...!

 

You could be right, but my gut tells me that the right promoter, or the right sanctioning fee, could've made the F1 race at Sepang popular. 

 

For the Argentina comment I was responding specifically to you saying that no one will travel to the middle of nowhere for races outside of Europe. (Obvs the US has some pretty remote but popular circuits as well.)

[Risil]

Difference between Saudi Arabia and Taliban is only in their materialistic wealth.

 

In F1 that counts for a lot!

[Gravelngrass]

Why not? After all, it would have two of my favorite things in the world together: ridiculous amounts of money and monarchy…

[jjcale]

The papers are reporting that the NUFC deal is back on ... and they have agreed to take certain steps and to accept certain restraints to address the more legitimate concerns raised.... so that just leaves the anti-Saudi sentiment to get over. 

 

Lets see how that one plays out... 

[Rinehart]

Saudi Arabia own large chunks of BP, BT, Shell, HSBC and Land Rover. The "concerns" raised over the NUFC deal are laughable, if anything the dodginess is more on the side of the PL. And that's a Brit talking...

Edited by Rinehart, 07 October 2021 - 11:43.

[Risil]

I assume, because I assume that disputes in the Premier League are always about protecting your rights and property, that the real sticking point with the Newcastle takeover was Saudi Arabia's state-sponsored piracy of Premier League broadcasts. Which has apparently now ended.

[F1matt]

I assume, because I assume that disputes in the Premier League are always about protecting your rights and property, that the real sticking point with the Newcastle takeover was Saudi Arabia's state-sponsored piracy of Premier League broadcasts. Which has apparently now ended.

 

 

Anything to kick those pesky Qatari's....

[pdac]

NU deal completed https://www.bbc.co.u...otball/58826899

[OvDrone]

Can't wait for the first NHL team from Riyadh!

[johnwilliamdavies]

Does anyone know how much of McLaren they own?

[loki]

According to Reuters almost 63%.

[FLB]

Can't wait for the first NHL team from Riyadh!

[loki]

Can't wait for the first NHL team from Riyadh!

Maybe they’ll buy the Sabres…

 

[FLB]

Maybe they’ll buy the Sabres…

 

Nah, they'll buy the Coyotes before the Sabres. The Saudis know how to thrive in the desert...

 

TRAIKOS: Plummeting NHL franchise values could force owners into selling | Toronto Sun

[CoolBreeze]

The problem is, people in Asia apparently just do not care about F1 - except for Japan.

 

South Korea, India were short lived. And the only reason China was there way longer is because they somehow didn't want to lose face - which still happend when looking at those empty stands with letters all over them rather then specators.

 

Singapore is/was a different story imo, as it's the night race of F1.

 

Not sure about Malaysia.

You have no clue what you are talking about...

[FullOppositeLock]

NU deal completed https://www.bbc.co.u...otball/58826899

 

Huge Newcastle United fan here. In two minds about this: ecstatic that Mike Ashley has finally upped sticks, glad that the new owner has the means and ambition to take the club forward and slightly put off by who they are and what they represent. Ah well, I've had no say in it and will enjoy the good times coming up.

[BRG]

Does anyone know how much of McLaren they own?

 

According to Reuters almost 63%.

Are you sure?  I thought Bahrain was the majority shareholder?

[johnwilliamdavies]

https://www.ft.com/c...4f-f5b78dd767dc

 

Saudi Arabia invested £400m into McLaren a few months back. Minority position according to this. And Latifi still has his shareholding, I guess. 

[New Britain]

https://www.ft.com/c...4f-f5b78dd767dc

 

Saudi Arabia invested £400m into McLaren a few months back. Minority position according to this. And Latifi still has his shareholding, I guess. 

When McLaren started the road car company ('Automotive') in around 2008/9, they brought in new shareholders beyond the existing shareholders of the existing organisation (McLaren Technology Group or something like that, which was mostly Racing but also Applied Technology and Absolute Taste). The new shareholders owned part of Automotive but none of Group, whilst Group and individual shareholders of Group owned the majority of Automotive.

After the Ojjehs and Mumtalakat sacked Ron in 2016, they harmonised the ownership structure so that there was now a single enterprise (McLaren Group) in which all shareholders had their equity stakes. This was done in preparation for a flotation/IPO of the whole thing.

Then Aston Martin had their cack-handed, disastrous farce of a flotation, which forced McLaren Group to postpone plans for their own flotation.

Then we had Covid, which forced Group to seek additional and outside funding for their already over-leveraged financial structure.

Then we had the F1 cost-cap, which created the prospect that the average F1 team could be self-funding. This meant that the Ferrari business model of a road car company's profits being used to subsidise a racing team, which Ron had sought to replicate, was no longer necessary.

At the end of 2020, MSP Sports Capital committed to paying £185m in stages for 1/3 of McLaren Racing, exclusive of Automotive. Thus the two companies are now distinct again (although Group will continue to own the majority of Racing).

AIUI, the Saudi investment earlier this year, like Mumtalakat's investment, is in McLaren Group, not McLaren Racing and therefore is only indirect to Racing.

[loki]

Are you sure?  I thought Bahrain was the majority shareholder?

Spot on.  Right you are chap.  Here’s another piece from when the Saudi investment was made.

 

https://www.reuters....ews-2021-07-16/