Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Cars must work in the rain - Todt


  • Please log in to reply
81 replies to this topic

#51 Hrco42

Hrco42
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: January 21

Posted 22 September 2021 - 20:41

An augmented reality helmet that displayed the track limits and the position of the car in front in the spray would definitely be possible right now. The challenge would be getting a helmet that passed the safety standards with this system integrated. They are getting very small now though. A single colour, small field of view one with a microLED source could be <5cm3 now.

Sure it would be possible, but would it be possible in real time at such speed? I mean cars would need to have some kind of radar which would transmit the data to the helmet with really low latency and then the helmet screen would need to have really high refresh rate

Advertisement

#52 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 29,187 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 22 September 2021 - 20:46

Sure it would be possible, but would it be possible in real time at such speed? I mean cars would need to have some kind of radar which would transmit the data to the helmet with really low latency and then the helmet screen would need to have really high refresh rate

 

I'm fairly certain this has been done in the defense aircraft industry. Fighter jets fly at far greater speeds than an F1 car as well.  Refresh rate doesn't need to be that high. The human brain is limited it what it can perceive anyway. The tech wouldn't need to be any faster than that. 

 

For what it's worth, I think all of that is overkill.  Have you ever had a car with parking sensors that beep according to proximity? A more refined version of that would improve a drivers ability to detect other cars around him by a considerable amount, in the dry, as well as in the wet. No more "I didn't see him".  Humans are adaptable creatures. Like the blind relearn to see, a driver learns how to use those sensors to build awareness in his blind spots with good accuracy.


Edited by ARTGP, 22 September 2021 - 20:52.


#53 ForzaFormula

ForzaFormula
  • Member

  • 3,190 posts
  • Joined: April 17

Posted 22 September 2021 - 21:02

They use to race in proper monsoons back in the old days in cars that were very unsafe, even later in F1 the driver's did it fine albeit with grooved tyres, just improve the wet weather tyres and let them race, no need for any special technology, this is formula 1 and the best drivers should be able to showcase their skills in the most challenging conditions.



#54 Hrco42

Hrco42
  • Member

  • 382 posts
  • Joined: January 21

Posted 22 September 2021 - 21:22

I'm fairly certain this has been done in the defense aircraft industry. Fighter jets fly at far greater speeds than an F1 car as well. Refresh rate doesn't need to be that high. The human brain is limited it what it can perceive anyway. The tech wouldn't need to be any faster than that.

For what it's worth, I think all of that is overkill. Have you ever had a car with parking sensors that beep according to proximity? A more refined version of that would improve a drivers ability to detect other cars around him by a considerable amount, in the dry, as well as in the wet. No more "I didn't see him". Humans are adaptable creatures. Like the blind relearn to see, a driver learns how to use those sensors to build awareness in his blind spots with good accuracy.


It's true that fighter jets use it at higher speeds but also at much larger distances, they don't have another jer (car) 5 meters in front of them.
And you can't really compare parking sensors that you use at 3 km/h to this.

Anyway, I do believe the technology is available but it would have to be really really precise

#55 Brawn BGP 001

Brawn BGP 001
  • Member

  • 5,935 posts
  • Joined: June 09

Posted 22 September 2021 - 21:40

Parc ferme and the lack of being able to change setups is one of the biggest issues. Blaming Pirelli for every issue is just silly.

With a cost cap now, Parc ferme is no longer needed.



#56 Clatter

Clatter
  • Member

  • 44,619 posts
  • Joined: February 00

Posted 22 September 2021 - 22:09

With a cost cap now, Parc ferme is no longer needed.

I agree, but as of yet they have shown no signs of getting rid of it, so the problem of not being able to change setup to suit conditions still exists.

#57 MikeTekRacing

MikeTekRacing
  • Member

  • 11,995 posts
  • Joined: October 04

Posted 22 September 2021 - 22:14

They use to race in proper monsoons back in the old days in cars that were very unsafe, even later in F1 the driver's did it fine albeit with grooved tyres, just improve the wet weather tyres and let them race, no need for any special technology, this is formula 1 and the best drivers should be able to showcase their skills in the most challenging conditions.

not sure why the focus is on grip, tyres and ride height.

The drivers said they could not see. How do the above change that?



#58 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 22 September 2021 - 23:33

It's true that fighter jets use it at higher speeds but also at much larger distances, they don't have another jer (car) 5 meters in front of them.
And you can't really compare parking sensors that you use at 3 km/h to this.

Anyway, I do believe the technology is available but it would have to be really really precise

 

And to follow this ... what would it do, exactly. Sure, you might be able to devise something that can detect cars around, but how exactly will this help? Is the system going to take over from the driver and reduce the closing speed or will it just let the driver know that they are about to hit something when it's too late for the driver to respond?



#59 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 11,543 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:16

We don't need augmented reality goggles or what not for the drivers - goddamn cars are ridiculously overcomplicated as it is, and adds another layer of technical complexity that can go wrong. The FIA/FOM should put some research - like they did with the halo -into trying to improve visibility by simpler means, such as some kind of mud (ne: spray) guard that can be mounted on the cars in the event of a wet race (or a race under the threat of the heavy rain).

Advertisement

#60 realracer200

realracer200
  • Member

  • 1,753 posts
  • Joined: April 15

Posted 23 September 2021 - 03:35

wow cars must work in the rain, what an insight.



#61 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 18,019 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 23 September 2021 - 08:23

Sure it would be possible, but would it be possible in real time at such speed? I mean cars would need to have some kind of radar which would transmit the data to the helmet with really low latency and then the helmet screen would need to have really high refresh rate


Display refresh rate isn't an issue, 60 would prob be enough, 120 is possible. The data and compute rate and accuracy would def be a challenge but they've had systems like this in fighter jets for 40 years. The challenge here is just adapting and integrating safely in an F1 helmet.

#62 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 18,019 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 23 September 2021 - 08:25

We don't need augmented reality goggles or what not for the drivers - goddamn cars are ridiculously overcomplicated as it is, and adds another layer of technical complexity that can go wrong. The FIA/FOM should put some research - like they did with the halo -into trying to improve visibility by simpler means, such as some kind of mud (ne: spray) guard that can be mounted on the cars in the event of a wet race (or a race under the threat of the heavy rain).


It's definitely a move in the technology aided driving direction which I agree isn't always desirable. But nothing on the cars will ever stop the spray/visibility issue unless the cars have 20mph speed limit...

#63 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 18,019 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 23 September 2021 - 08:28

It's true that fighter jets use it at higher speeds but also at much larger distances, they don't have another jer (car) 5 meters in front of them.
And you can't really compare parking sensors that you use at 3 km/h to this.

Anyway, I do believe the technology is available but it would have to be really really precise

To make the point of the post you quoted... it only has to be more precise than not seeing the car at all.

A binary or 3/4stage beeping when you are within a certain proximity of another car might be more than enough info.

Having a direct linked between crashing/crashed vehicles and oncoming vehicles via such a system (negating race control lag) would be a huge safety increase and might have saved Huberts life for example.

Edited by Tenmantaylor, 23 September 2021 - 08:28.


#64 Burtros

Burtros
  • Member

  • 3,222 posts
  • Joined: July 11

Posted 23 September 2021 - 08:43

Augmented reality?

We need to take this sport back from tech nerds.

#65 ForzaFormula

ForzaFormula
  • Member

  • 3,190 posts
  • Joined: April 17

Posted 23 September 2021 - 10:17

not sure why the focus is on grip, tyres and ride height.

The drivers said they could not see. How do the above change that?

 

Well that is perfectly normal when it's heavy rain, always been like that.



#66 absinthedude

absinthedude
  • Member

  • 5,709 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 23 September 2021 - 10:27

Over reaction.

Been watching F1 since 2002 and only a handful of races(only 2 in my memory) have been cancelled before half distance.

The only thing they should do is negotiate a better contingency plans with the tracks i.e run the race later on or reimburse a portion of the fans tickets.

 

I've been watching since 1978 and I think the only comparable occasion was Adelaide 1991 which was red flagged and not restarted after 17 laps. Today it would probably not have been started. 

 

Nobody wants to refund fans....circuits will go bankrupt if they cannot claw back the hosting fees demanded by Liberty. But I agree we need a better contingency plan for running the race later, or even earlier if there's a monsoon predicted. I do realise that weather prediction is tricky but it might be possible to run a grand prix on a Saturday afternoon/evening or Sunday morning if terrible conditions are predicted - especially in known trouble spots such as Suzuka and Spa. That way fans are already there for the most part. Last resort, run the race on a Monday - though that might be difficult for fans who need to go back to work it's surely preferable to what happened at Spa this year. 



#67 Collombin

Collombin
  • Member

  • 8,589 posts
  • Joined: March 05

Posted 23 September 2021 - 10:32

I've been watching since 1978


Can you actually remember things properly from when you were that age? I'm insanely jealous if so. All I can remember from being 5 years old is getting unfairly blamed for breaking the head off a toy duck. The sense of injustice has fuelled me ever since.

#68 Peat

Peat
  • Member

  • 8,799 posts
  • Joined: November 09

Posted 23 September 2021 - 10:56

Something just occured to me. 

The '22 demo cars/images all have these aerofoils/flaps over the wheels.  A traditionally wet tyre has a larger diameter than a slick to accommodate the depth of tread. The added benefit is that it raises the ride height and lengthens the gearing slightly. 

In order for the flaps to work efficiently, they presumably have an optimal distance from the tyre surface. Does this mean the new wets are the same size as the slicks?



#69 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 11,543 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 23 September 2021 - 11:00

Something just occured to me. 

The '22 demo cars/images all have these aerofoils/flaps over the wheels.  A traditionally wet tyre has a larger diameter than a slick to accommodate the depth of tread. The added benefit is that it raises the ride height and lengthens the gearing slightly. 

In order for the flaps to work efficiently, they presumably have an optimal distance from the tyre surface. Does this mean the new wets are the same size as the slicks?

 

Maybe the flaps can be adjusted in height to make an allowance for larger diameter wet tyres? 



#70 absinthedude

absinthedude
  • Member

  • 5,709 posts
  • Joined: June 18

Posted 23 September 2021 - 11:07

Can you actually remember things properly from when you were that age? I'm insanely jealous if so. All I can remember from being 5 years old is getting unfairly blamed for breaking the head off a toy duck. The sense of injustice has fuelled me ever since.

 

Oh yes, by that age I already could operate a fully manual camera and wield a soldering iron. I have strong memories of my very first Christmas and of sitting glumly at the bottom of the stairs on the eve of my third birthday saying "I don't want to be three"...because three meant starting school, beginning to grow up, venturing away from the perceived safety of home. My own exploits in photography started aged 4, taking photos of my teddy bears and then of my school friends and teachers. 

 

So I also remember my dad sitting me on his lap and suggesting I watch this car race with him. Pretty sure it was Kyalami....I remember Ronnie and Patrick's battle. They were my early heroes along with Mario and Riccardo Patrese. Probably because Mario won the title that year and Patrese also starred in that first race. 



#71 djparky

djparky
  • Member

  • 1,992 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 23 September 2021 - 12:59

how on earth have they coped all these years?,

#72 Tenmantaylor

Tenmantaylor
  • Member

  • 18,019 posts
  • Joined: July 01

Posted 23 September 2021 - 13:26

Augmented reality?

We need to take this sport back from tech nerds.

 

I agree with this when it comes to controlling the car and drivers making strategic decisions.

 

But to say technology is always bad, especially where safety is concerned, is quite frankly ridiculous.

 

Halo for e.g. Glad of those nerds? Or would you preferred to see Lewis, Alonso, Grosjean all die in the name of F1?

 

If a simple (not necessarily visual) aid can make it slightly safer to race in the rain that have events like Spa that no one is happy with, why not?

 

You sound like the brexiters who'd had enough of experts and wanted to take the country back. Well look where that is getting us.



#73 ForzaFormula

ForzaFormula
  • Member

  • 3,190 posts
  • Joined: April 17

Posted 23 September 2021 - 19:14

how on earth have they coped all these years?,

 

F1 is getting lightened down allot, plus half the drivers these days cry soon as a bit of rain hits the track.....



#74 djparky

djparky
  • Member

  • 1,992 posts
  • Joined: May 12

Posted 23 September 2021 - 19:52

F1 is getting lightened down allot, plus half the drivers these days cry soon as a bit of rain hits the track.....


They do indeed...

#75 ARTGP

ARTGP
  • Member

  • 29,187 posts
  • Joined: March 19

Posted 23 September 2021 - 20:11

F1 is getting lightened down allot, plus half the drivers these days cry soon as a bit of rain hits the track.....

 

To be fair, F1 cars are faster than ever before.  The "old guys" were quite simply going much slower. That doesn't prove they were any more daring. It's harder when the car has so much performance. Collision speeds are higher.  When a car appears  out of the spray broadside, you're probably going quite a bit faster than 30 or 40 years ago.  You also didn't have as much aero kicking spray.


Edited by ARTGP, 23 September 2021 - 20:14.


#76 azza200

azza200
  • Member

  • 952 posts
  • Joined: October 15

Posted 23 September 2021 - 21:01

 

 



#77 pdac

pdac
  • Member

  • 17,074 posts
  • Joined: February 10

Posted 23 September 2021 - 21:36

To be fair, F1 cars are faster than ever before.  The "old guys" were quite simply going much slower. That doesn't prove they were any more daring. It's harder when the car has so much performance. Collision speeds are higher.  When a car appears  out of the spray broadside, you're probably going quite a bit faster than 30 or 40 years ago.  You also didn't have as much aero kicking spray.

 

Also, those 'old guys' were not as fit or prepared as drivers are now. They didn't have simulators that they could spend hours in. They also had less controls to fiddle with.



#78 krapmeister

krapmeister
  • Member

  • 11,543 posts
  • Joined: August 08

Posted 23 September 2021 - 22:00

It's not wrong to say that F1 as a whole is a lot more risk averse than it used to be

#79 Alfisti

Alfisti
  • Member

  • 39,658 posts
  • Joined: December 99

Posted 25 September 2021 - 04:56

Todt, what does he do exactly??? Ultimate nothing man I swear, socialite with a paddock pass.

Advertisement

#80 Hati

Hati
  • Member

  • 6,868 posts
  • Joined: March 16

Posted 25 September 2021 - 07:33

How does ground effect work on wet? Does higher clearance to ground decrease grip?



#81 Sterzo

Sterzo
  • Member

  • 4,957 posts
  • Joined: September 11

Posted 25 September 2021 - 09:15

It's been clear for years F1 cars have been poor at racing the rain, hence safety-car starts from time to time. Jean Todt as head of FIA has set out an objective to improve the situation.

 

Sounds like good sense to me. How odd to slag off Todt for not having an instant solution, for using the people below him, for addressing a problem that doesn't exist, for being risk averse, for being a socialite...



#82 r4mses

r4mses
  • Member

  • 2,345 posts
  • Joined: April 09

Posted 25 September 2021 - 09:27

Just build a roof over the track.

 

Better heat the track so the water vaporise instantly - side effect: no more need for tire warmes :p