121 replies to this topic

[Rinehart]

The only criteria should be performance credentials. Obviously the likes of Kimi, Alonso and Vettel are better than Mazaspin and Laughiti - the debate should be there.

[Risil]

Mazepin and Latifi are probably artefacts of the rule preventing wealthy amateurs from buying a customer car and running it themselves.

[cpbell]

Mazepin and Latifi are probably artefacts of the rule preventing wealthy amateurs from buying a customer car and running it themselves.

Which is why F1 needs to allow customer chassis and single-car entries again.

[absinthedude]

There's no issue discussed in this thread which wouldn't be alleviated by having more cars on the grid. So making it easier for more teams to enter, which might include limited use of customer cars and could certainly include single car entries, would be a big positive. 

[Albaforever]

The Mansell cameo was unnecessary.

 

The races the rest of the year still had that gut-wrenching tension, where you feel physically sick with nerves ahead of the start, as is the case with every Grand Prix from then till now.

 

In fairness Renualt wanted Mansell back in a Williams that year who were Williams engine supplier at the time and Mansell did well for Williams.   

[Taxi]

We always need veteran drivers. But right now we only really have 2 real veterans (Kimi almost 42 and Alonso 40). Do we need them? Yes. First,because they are senators of the sport. Respected, experienced and popular. Second and foremost because they still perform: Kimi still has what it takes in races: scores better finishes than his teammate and usually mixes with faster cars in races having the second worst car. Fernando lost a tiny bit of his speed but in races he's amazing. Top 5 for me. 

Edited by Taxi, 28 September 2021 - 12:27.

[Rinehart]

Mazepin and Latifi are probably artefacts of the rule preventing wealthy amateurs from buying a customer car and running it themselves.

I’m just saying - why question the deserving of a drivers place on the grid based on age, rather than ability. The whole conversation seems pointless to me. Seems to me some people just get bored of the same drivers.

[Risil]

Agree that it's arrant nonsense to suggest Lewis is too old for F1.

[kumo7]

Was anyone here watching in 1994? It was just before I started watching so I can only look at it in hindsight.

In the space of a few years, Piquet and Prost had retired and Mansell was off doing Indycar. Then Senna was killed. F1 had no champions on the grid. There were a few secondary stars like Alesi and Berger, and new drivers like Hill, Hakkinen and Schumacher. But it would be much like if the drivers named in the OP all left the sport now.

It was apparently a big enough deal for Bernie to get Mansell back in an F1 car. But did that make that much difference for fans at the time?

Hill Schumi was on cards, start of the dominant era, rise of Rory B, against Newey, JeanT’s game, there were lots. In driver front, Berger, Rubens… like I said Hill Schumi created much discussion. F1 saw lots of politics then.

Edited by kumo7, 28 September 2021 - 14:48.

[messy]

Agree that it's arrant nonsense to suggest Lewis is too old for F1.

 

Lewis is still at the top of his game I think. If he wanted to he could have another five years, probably winning races. Similarly, if Alonso was in a car capable he'd still be more than capable of winning I think.

[HeadFirst]

There's no issue discussed in this thread which wouldn't be alleviated by having more cars on the grid. So making it easier for more teams to enter, which might include limited use of customer cars and could certainly include single car entries, would be a big positive. 

 

What makes you so sure that more cars wouldn't just mean more older (less talented) drivers sticking around, less talented newbies getting rides, and more ride buyers? More cars on the grid doesn't mean the right guys are going to get the seats.

[pdac]

What makes you so sure that more cars wouldn't just mean more older (less talented) drivers sticking around, less talented newbies getting rides, and more ride buyers? More cars on the grid doesn't mean the right guys are going to get the seats.

 

Well, the only way you can assure that is for the FIA to choose which drivers go into F1 (by some sort of drive-off) and the teams will have to get what they're given. Once you let the teams decide who drives for them (which, of course, is the only sensible thing to do), they will choose whichever driver suits their needs (which is what happens now).

 

All we're seeing is a situation where as teams have become more professional businesses and big manufacturers have gotten involved (and marketing, in general, has become a lot more slick and subtle), their criteria for choosing the right drivers for them is different to, perhaps, how it once was. But F1, in general, is a lot different to how it once was.

[absinthedude]

I was just a little kid then, but it felt very weird and like there was a big void. Specially because Schumacher seemed so much better than anyone else that was left, and he wasn't even a champion yet. It was just strange.

 

I think even a young adult like myself felt that void. Hill could challenge Schumacher occasionally, but I don't think anyone believed that Hill was consistently on the same level. Losing three greats to retirement and sabbatical, and a fourth to a fatal crash.....it really was like some bomb had gone off and left a deep crater.. It wasn't the same, and never could be again. In time, of course, new greats emerged. Next year we still have Fernando, Lewis and Seb along with the likely greats of the near future.

[teejay]

We need veteran drivers just as much as we need young blood: a healthy mix is ideal. But for that we need more teams / more cars on the grid.

 

This. 

 

Bring back at least 26 cars! 

[Pampalini]

I guess the real question is about Lewis... not his age, not his ability, but he has won too many titles, too many races. I am his fan, but I am convinced that he now- and understandably - doesn't give more that 95% (save in Silverstone) and it is not his best year. And still it is enough to lead the WDC against an awesome Verstappen. And the others are nowhere near, which is brutal    So we have someone, a fantastic driver who is still leading in the WDC, he might even win it, and he's got almost double points  more than any other contenders save Verstappen, and even if he is not driving very well compared to his own standards. Who is to blame? Not Lewis I am sure... Fate, I guess. Frankly I cannot decide who should win this year... I cannot decide if I still want him here- generally I want to see new faces win... and frankly there are awesome races without Lewis AND Max  I think I could let him go if I knew he is happy, he finds a complete life outside F1 racing, but I am also worried because he seems like someone who is doing exactly what he should do, he was born to be a racing driver in F1. So what else is out there for him?! Oh well... 

[absinthedude]

Nobody is stirring anything, stop being dramatic. All I was saying is that a Ricciardo who is still not 100% comfortable in the McLaren has won a race, which tells me the car is certainly strong enough to win races, especially in more capable hands a la Verstappen or Hamilton.

Norris is clearly not on their level yet, which is what this thread questions.

 

And there is the rub....do we think that Max or Lewis would have done better in Lando's shoes? I think they probably would. Not greatly so, but they'd probably have snatched that Sochi win and maybe Monza too. 

 

As good as Lando undoubtedly is....as much as he is highly likely to fight for the WDC in a year or two.....if you think that Max and Lewis are just half a rung above, then Lando is not yet an elite driver. He may well become one, but there's that last 2% to go. 

 

Don't get me wrong, he's bloody good. This year in particular he's been very impressive. But this is Jean Alesi in 1990 or Michael Schumacher in 1993. Still the odd wrinkle to iron out. 

 

AS for "Do we need Hamilton?".....the sport can only benefit from having the most successful F1 driver of all time still competing at the very top. Like him, loathe him, ambivalent about him....it makes headlines. You watch to see him win, you watch to see him get beaten, you watch purely because it's a phenomenal career....and you'll miss him when he's gone.

Fred is back because he feels he has unfinished business in F1. And he's delivering the goods most weeks. If that Alpine can gain some performance I would not bet against him taking a win in his forties. 

[PlatenGlass]

And there is the rub....do we think that Max or Lewis would have done better in Lando's shoes? I think they probably would. Not greatly so, but they'd probably have snatched that Sochi win and maybe Monza too.

 

Well they didn't win in Monza anyway. Ended up behind Ricciardo just as Norris did. I don't think they would have done any better in a slower car.

[smitten]

Similarly, if Alonso was in a car capable he'd still be more than capable of winning I think.

Seems like the car he's in HAS won quite recently.... yet the older driver is still higher in the WDC.

[Gravelngrass]

Except for Kimi, who’s already made his choice, they are probably still better than the pay drivers, sometimes much better, so yeah, there’s no reason for them to leave yet.

[Hrco42]

I think I could let him go if I knew he is happy, he finds a complete life outside F1 racing, but I am also worried because he seems like someone who is doing exactly what he should do, he was born to be a racing driver in F1. So what else is out there for him?! Oh well...

You sound like you are his mom. He's a grown man, has millions of money and hangs out with pop stars at galas. Don't worry, he'll be fine

[revmeister]

This is why we need veteran drivers like Kimi... because they are so cool.

 

[HP]

My current sig gives an idea already where I stand on the issue the OP raised. (Edit: For avoidance of doubt, only the part on Vettel)

 

Like everywhere else, F1 needs drivers that set standards others need to match up to. This years title race is the old experience vs. younger driver story again. I'd argue that without Hamilton, Verstappen would be already on the home stretch for winning this years WDC. Also Hamilton is trying to get an 8th championship, which draws viewership.

 

Another thing is that most veteran drivers are there because they enjoy driving those cars. Cancelling them, because of their experience/age IMO just makes F1 soulless. Enforcing the cancel culture even more in F1 that it already is, is IMO a no win for anyone.

 

Can't count anymore places where older people have lost their job because management thought it was a good idea. After a few months, the management realized they needed the expierence of the older folks, because the product suffered badly. It's really a balance act, in need of understanding in what state F1 is in. If F1 is attracting new followers dropping the champions works better than if viewership is stagnant. Other issues are there as well. Vettel is easier to drop than Hamilton. Not because of their respective performance, but because of their online presence.

 

There is another issue that I have observed in my life. I don't enjoy FE as much as I do F1, although I have been following every race this year in both series. Drivers come and go in FE more than in F1 so far, and for that very reason I could not name you 1/4th of the field in FE. In F1 I can name every driver. This makes F1 a much more enjoyable experience for me than FE. Arguably the racing and competition in FE is more exciting, but for me this is only half of the story. Anyhow FE is growing but far less than could be expected, even though it is closer to the people, more relevant technology, more drivers and has more young driver influx than F1. Why? I don't know. So before I tell any of the champions off in F1, I'd had a good look at FE and it's issues.

 

My gut feeling tells me the driver market in F1 has sorted it out well enough, except for a few drivers that we usually call pay drivers whose performances are way below par. In contrast old champions add to F1's image but some of the young pay drivers do the opposite.

 

Again it's a balance act, that IMO cannot be governed by rules. For those who insist, consider this. If you are an expert in your job and workplace, would you be happy to lose your job you are good at, just because someone puts in some sort of arbitrary rules and restrictions?

Edited by HP, 03 October 2021 - 00:46.