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Will the 2022 cars ruin F1?


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#1 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:14

Obviously not, if they are as promised, they could fix a lot of the current issues in f1…. However, this year is superb with the field very close and plenty battles throughout. As with any big reg change, there could be a big field spread next year and not as exciting as 2021 has turned out to be.

A bonus season this year, as we were never supposed to have the current cars this time round.

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#2 ARTGP

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:18

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet.  One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.


Edited by ARTGP, 25 September 2021 - 18:19.


#3 Beamer

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:18

Really? Worth a thread?

#4 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:19

Really? Worth a thread?


You clicked on it… so guess that’s affirmation for me.

#5 Beamer

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:20

Well.dont know what's said without reading? If you were just posting clickbait, rhen yes, you're right.

#6 OO7

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:23

Obviously not, if they are as promised, they could fix a lot of the current issues in f1…. However, this year is superb with the field very close and plenty battles throughout. As with any big reg change, there could be a big field spread next year and not as exciting as 2021 has turned out to be.

A bonus season this year, as we were never supposed to have the current cars this time round.

I think it's quite shortsighted to focus on this one year of close competition.  Also close competition is but one aspect, we also want close on track battles, AKA wheel to wheel racing.  If next year the competition spreads out, but we get excellent close racing, I'd be very happy in the knowledge that there'll be performance convergence again in the future, as the team develop and adapt to the new regulations.



#7 MasterOfCoin

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:25

Obviously not, if they are as promised, they could fix a lot of the current issues in f1…. However, this year is superb with the field very close and plenty battles throughout. As with any big reg change, there could be a big field spread next year and not as exciting as 2021 has turned out to be.

A bonus season this year, as we were never supposed to have the current cars this time round.

We might be having a close field, but it feels it's like the worst for overtaking I've seen.... 



#8 Burtros

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:25

I’m hoping McLareb can repeat 1998 if one team does nail it better than the rest.

Vibes are good - 1997 was a season where they started to show real promise again….. much like 2021!

#9 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:28

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet. One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.


Did they not have a whole department this time, tasked with breaking the regs via loopholes?

Brawn is the poacher turned gamekeeper

#10 ARTGP

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:33

Did they not have a whole department this time, tasked with breaking the regs via loopholes?

Brawn is the poacher turned gamekeeper

 

F1 teams have been loopholing for decades. Rest assured, it won't suddenly stop in 2022.



#11 PayasYouRace

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:46

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet.  One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.

 

So not like 2009 then, which saw three teams developing the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and by mid-season the one of them who the others didn't see the backside of had already been caught.

 

We should hope it is like 2009, which was one of the closest fields in F1 history and had a great championship battle between drivers of different teams, plus some other winners along the way.



#12 absinthedude

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:46

We might be having a close field, but it feels it's like the worst for overtaking I've seen.... 

 

This.

 

What we are primarily hoping is that 2022 brings us better racing. Some actual battles on the track. Years ago battles used to last several laps, even a good portion of the race....when did we last see that?



#13 Risil

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:49

Well.dont know what's said without reading? If you were just posting clickbait, rhen yes, you're right.

It's a reasonable thread expressing a reasonable worry that we've finally got a competitive balance we all like in 2021, and that'll be thrown into jeopardy by the new rule set for 2022.

 

I don't think the conditions in 2021 would be easily repeatable whatever happens to the rules: currently we've got

 

1) Teams entering their second year running their cars owing to the pandemic, so everybody understands how to get the most out of what they've built

 

2) A significant change to the aero regs before the start of this season, ostensibly for safety reasons, which pegged back 2020's runaway leaders Mercedes

 

3) The pressure of the 2022 regulations (and perhaps the tightening budget cap) meaning that the best equipped and most lavishly funded teams are spending their advantage on designing next year's car instead of developing this one

 

I reckon those have more to do with the closer competition this year than anything else, and they probably wouldn't persist if we kept these technical regs for another 5 years.



#14 Risil

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:50

So not like 2009 then, which saw three teams developing the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and by mid-season the one of them who the others didn't see the backside of had already been caught.

 

We should hope it is like 2009, which was one of the closest fields in F1 history and had a great championship battle between drivers of different teams, plus some other winners along the way.

I had a look at 2009 on F1 TV, it's aged really well! IMO.



#15 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:55

I may be misremembering, but was their failure to not take advantage of the rule change in 2009 the reason for Toyota and BMW ending up leaving at the end of that year?

Alpine bosses may be crapping themselves

#16 ARTGP

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:57

So not like 2009 then, which saw three teams developing the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and by mid-season the one of them who the others didn't see the backside of had already been caught.

 

We should hope it is like 2009, which was one of the closest fields in F1 history and had a great championship battle between drivers of different teams, plus some other winners along the way.

 

ah come on. Brawn still did it best. And then were outdeveloped. But with budget cap and Aero restrictions, Brawn would have been competitive the whole season.



#17 ARTGP

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:57

I may be misremembering, but was their failure to not take advantage of the rule change in 2009 the reason for Toyota and BMW ending up leaving at the end of that year?

Alpine bosses may be crapping themselves

 

Toyota DID take advantage. They had a double diffuser if I'm not mistaken. It just didn't work as well as Brawn'.


Edited by ARTGP, 25 September 2021 - 18:58.


#18 Risil

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 18:59

I may be misremembering, but was their failure to not take advantage of the rule change in 2009 the reason for Toyota and BMW ending up leaving at the end of that year?

 

Nah, they left because their respective boards of directors told them to. Formula One is conspicuous waste when you are laying off workers.
 



#19 Anderis

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 19:03

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet.  One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.

Have we watched the same 2009?

 

The closest season in F1 history. Yeah, Brawn could have maybe pulled away more decisevely had they been more stable but that's not what actually happened and you said "virtually identical", so...

 

I'm hoping for the repeat of 2009. My favourite F1 season ever probably.
 



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#20 PlatenGlass

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 19:11

Under normal circumstances, we don't have a close field this year anyway. We will get a close qualifying, but as long as the Mercs and Red Bulls don't have their way blocked in the race, no-one else sees them again. In terms of race performance, those two cars have been head and shoulders above the other teams at most tracks. I'm not at all worried that next year will make things worse.



#21 Jerem

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 19:40

In the eyes of people who started to enjoy F1 after 2014, probably.
In my eyes, it's already ruined, for obvious reasons.



#22 chrcol

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 19:44

Obviously not, if they are as promised, they could fix a lot of the current issues in f1…. However, this year is superb with the field very close and plenty battles throughout. As with any big reg change, there could be a big field spread next year and not as exciting as 2021 has turned out to be.

A bonus season this year, as we were never supposed to have the current cars this time round.

 

Big field spreads are better as is more lapped cars to navigate, easier for faster cars to overtake slower cars as well.

 

The big question is if the reduced effect of following closely turns out to be as predicted or not.



#23 Leibowitz

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 19:46

What’s wrong with 2009 suddenly? One of the best seasons in modern F1 era. We should pray that it turns out like 2009.

#24 ARTGP

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 20:05

Have we watched the same 2009?

 

The closest season in F1 history. Yeah, Brawn could have maybe pulled away more decisevely had they been more stable but that's not what actually happened and you said "virtually identical", so...

 

I'm hoping for the repeat of 2009. My favourite F1 season ever probably.

 

To be clear, I'm referring to the start of 2009 more so than the entire season. Whereby Brawn locked out the front row comfortably in Australia. The only team who really got the loophole to work.

 

The idea that one (or three) teams show up with some innovation that no one else has. and they dominate the first race.


Edited by ARTGP, 25 September 2021 - 20:06.


#25 FirstnameLastname

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 21:27

The cost cap might make it harder for the teams to spend in order to catch up with any loophole finding ‘breakaway’ team

#26 Myrvold

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 21:28

The cost cap might make it harder for the teams to spend in order to catch up with any loophole finding ‘breakaway’ team

 

Not that is has proven to be "easy" since 2014 either.



#27 JHSingo

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 22:08

Well, hopefully the 2022 cars give us a better quality of racing than this year's. So, if they do, I don't mind if the championship isn't as close. I mean, let's face it. Whilst we've seen some great results this year, such as Ocon's win in Hungary, Ricciardo's win in Monza etc, they probably weren't what you'd consider great races - because the difficulty in overtaking has generally been a pretty common theme. It's possible to enjoy a season without having a close championship battle if there's consistently good racing. I enjoyed 2011 for that reason, it was a crap year for the championship battle, but we had some cracking races, primarily thanks to it being the first year of Pirelli tyres.

 

And I sort of dispute the idea that things are closer now - Merc and Red Bull are still miles clear of the rest at most weekends, in pure pace terms. Remember that only a couple of races ago, everyone up to fourth place was lapped. Yes, maybe Zandvoort was a weird track, but even still.

 

I've been a big fan of the concept of the 2022 from the start - I found it very disappointing the regs were delayed an extra year, given last season was (aside from the odd race here and there) a bit of a wet fart. So, I hope it lives up to the hype. And yes, that this season has so far been so good is definitely a pleasant surprise, given I'd got extremely low expectations coming into this year, as I think most people had.


Edited by JHSingo, 25 September 2021 - 22:09.


#28 Gravelngrass

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 22:24

In terms of close racing and domination, it probably can’t be more ruined than the last era..

#29 pdac

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 22:38

In terms of close racing and domination, it probably can’t be more ruined than the last era..

 

Wait and see



#30 F1 Mike

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 23:39

If anyone is complaining about it being difficult to overtake - just let's not forget Alonso Vs Petrov in 2010

#31 r4mses

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Posted 25 September 2021 - 23:49

I may be misremembering, but was their failure to not take advantage of the rule change in 2009 the reason for Toyota and BMW ending up leaving at the end of that year?

Alpine bosses may be crapping themselves

 

BMW lobbied for the 2009 regs, threw everything at the 2009 car - when they had a race winning car at hand in 2008, maybe even WDC contender - just to come up with a car that looked like some students and Munich University did it in their second semester during an afternoon. 



#32 Atreiu

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 00:06

I was much happier with 2010 than 2009.

#33 HP

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 01:20

In terms of close racing and domination, it probably can’t be more ruined than the last era..

 

The key to not have that again IMO is that tech that not every team can develop for themselves has restrictions.

 

Tech integration should be looked at too. Manufacturers teams (including "de facto" ones) have had an advantage ever since engines, gear boxes and what else have become an integrated part of the chassis.

 

All other advantages a team may have had, have been overcome by other teams quickly, or the FIA changed the rules.

 

Not all of the FIA changes however were good in the long term. An example is the Bridgestone/Ferrari partnership. The initial FIA solution of a single supplier worked well, but then they went too far. We now have the Pirellis that are designed (by FIA mandate) to require too much management and discourages close racing for fear to destroy the tires. IMO situation with the tires right now are a band aid solution to compromise for the initial hybrid engine disparity.

 

I'm not suggesting that developing those more exclusive and/or integrated techs should be completely shut down, but disparities should be fixed at the level were it happens, and not change the rules somewhere else to apply a band aid fix. DRS in my opinion is also a band aid fix.



#34 ClubmanGT

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 01:44

2009 was dumb. You had a handful of teams with a massive technical advantage that set off an aero arms race after the rules were changed with specific discussions around cost-cutting as part of it. 

 

Most people were happy with 2009 because it eventually became a question of whether a British driver could grind their way to a title after being handed a massive advantage at the start of it. 

If you take that out of it, you end up with a season that basically undid the whole point of resetting the rules. 

 

As for 'will it ruin F1 given the current season' - we currently have either one driver winning or another. There's very little actual racing between them because they keep wiping each other out thanks to our stupid rules that can't just say 'all of da time, you musta leave the space!'. It would be mighty convenient to kick the can down the road on meaningful reform after years of domination by one team because another team can win races and you're determined to ignore the fact there's little actual racing each other taking place.



#35 Alfisti

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 02:35

We might be having a close field, but it feels it's like the worst for overtaking I've seen....


Not even close. The late 90s, early 2000s were dreadful.

#36 Alfisti

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 02:47

What’s wrong with 2009 suddenly? One of the best seasons in modern F1 era. We should pray that it turns out like 2009.


What??? It was garbage. Brawn had it wrapped up fp1 in oz.

#37 Marklar

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 08:28

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet.  One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.

the grid was almost never more than 1 second seperated, and in the 2nd season half more than half of the teams could win races. In the first half it was at least two, just because Red Bull & Vettel kept screwing over it doesnt change reality.

It would be a dream if it was like 2009, but I suspect it wont be, and the budget cap will further increase the problem if one team nails it.



#38 masa90

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 08:33

These turborules have mostly been horrible for the sport. No actual competition at the front, teams struggling to stay afloat. One competitive year at the end doesnt make it better.

#39 noikeee

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 09:37

2009 was when F1 hit jackpot, typically when you make a massive regulations change one team figures it out and is miles ahead of the others, but in 2009 the team that did this had no budget to develop the car and by mid-season everyone had caught them.

I think it's quite likely that someone will do this next year but without the Brawn quickly falling back factor. It's legitimate to worry about it "ruining" the competitiveness of the sport. One thing though, is the engines will remain and they still aren't equalised, there's still some noticeable differences in performance. So if its a Mercedes powered team that nails the car design, we're screwed as nobody will catch them and they'll have a double advantage. But if it's Red Bull or Ferrari or Alpine then it might get interesting - having merely the best chassis is unlikely to make them dominate completely, if the opposition have a better engine.

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#40 masa90

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:14

Not even close. The late 90s, early 2000s were dreadful.

Yeah but count actual overtakes without drs. They are pretty much nonexistant currently.



#41 cpbell

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:17

This.

 

What we are primarily hoping is that 2022 brings us better racing. Some actual battles on the track. Years ago battles used to last several laps, even a good portion of the race....when did we last see that?

I saw a rerun on the F1 website of Malaysia 2001 where Jos had a lengthy fight with someone.


Edited by cpbell, 26 September 2021 - 10:17.


#42 masa90

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:20

2009 was when F1 hit jackpot, typically when you make a massive regulations change one team figures it out and is miles ahead of the others, but in 2009 the team that did this had no budget to develop the car and by mid-season everyone had caught them.

I think it's quite likely that someone will do this next year but without the Brawn quickly falling back factor. It's legitimate to worry about it "ruining" the competitiveness of the sport. One thing though, is the engines will remain and they still aren't equalised, there's still some noticeable differences in performance. So if its a Mercedes powered team that nails the car design, we're screwed as nobody will catch them and they'll have a double advantage. But if it's Red Bull or Ferrari or Alpine then it might get interesting - having merely the best chassis is unlikely to make them dominate completely, if the opposition have a better engine.

So we still end up in same crap that we had to endure all the way from 2014 to start of this year.

Biggest dominating period ever with no one else having a chance apart from Mercedes.

 

F1 has been so uncompetitive at top for absolute ages that they are hardly gonna mess it up even worse. This year has been such an exception to the rule with fake narrative it is close. Those few random wins were all caused by outside factors and luck. Otherwise Max and Lewis would won every race lol.

 

And they just blast trough if they fall bit in start or quali lol.

 

But atleast the battle at the top has been there and few otherwise exciting races. But roll on 2022. Many of these fears sound bit weird when they pretty much describe the problems f1 has had since last shuffle.



#43 cpbell

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:21

BMW lobbied for the 2009 regs, threw everything at the 2009 car - when they had a race winning car at hand in 2008, maybe even WDC contender - just to come up with a car that looked like some students and Munich University did it in their second semester during an afternoon. 

I seem to recall immediately thinking when I saw it in Autosport "well that won't win anything", and I'm not an engineer or car designer.



#44 absinthedude

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 10:48

To be clear, I'm referring to the start of 2009 more so than the entire season. Whereby Brawn locked out the front row comfortably in Australia. The only team who really got the loophole to work.

 

The idea that one (or three) teams show up with some innovation that no one else has. and they dominate the first race.

 

Most "classic" F1 seasons started off with one team seeming to have an advantage and banging in wins in the early races only to be overtaken by competitors. 1979 is a classic example. After three races, Jacques Laffite and Ligier looked to have the season in their hands....after five races, you'd have thought it was between Laffitte and Gilles Villeneuve....then Williams suddenly learned how to win and Alan Jones put in a serious bid in the second half of the season.....but Jody Sheckter came through to win in a thrilling year. 



#45 Tufty

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:23

Most "classic" F1 seasons started off with one team seeming to have an advantage and banging in wins in the early races only to be overtaken by competitors. 1979 is a classic example. After three races, Jacques Laffite and Ligier looked to have the season in their hands....after five races, you'd have thought it was between Laffitte and Gilles Villeneuve....then Williams suddenly learned how to win and Alan Jones put in a serious bid in the second half of the season.....but Jody Sheckter came through to win in a thrilling year. 

Serious question, because this was comfortably before my time. While as a season story, it sounds gripping, how many of the actual races were exciting? Other than for the running order, I mean.



#46 JHSingo

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 11:51

Serious question, because this was comfortably before my time. While as a season story, it sounds gripping, how many of the actual races were exciting? Other than for the running order, I mean.

 

Exciting by 1979's standards, or exciting by 2021's standards? 



#47 Tufty

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 12:00

Exciting by 1979's standards, or exciting by 2021's standards? 

2021 given the comparisons being drawn.



#48 pdac

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 13:00

Yeah but count actual overtakes without drs. They are pretty much nonexistant currently.

 

Little overtaking has a lot to do with the fact that the cars are very closely matched these days. What we should be seeing is driver A overtaking driver B and then later on driver B overtaking driver A, but there's not much of that happening with DRS.



#49 DutchQuicksilver

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 14:37

It's going to be like 2009. Virtually identical I'm willing to bet.  One team (regardless of their prior resources) develops the watershed innovation/loophole of the new regs, and the other teams won't see their backside ever again on the race track.

 


Halfway through 2009 the entire grid was 1 second apart in quali trim, since 2021 never been that close, so I’d sign for a close season like that anytime in the first year of a regulation change.

#50 TomNokoe

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Posted 26 September 2021 - 14:39

I'm not enjoying this season as much as I thought I would, so I don't think it will ruin anything