1528 replies to this topic

[Singularity]

Very interesting to see/hear the contrasts here. McLaren definitely need some confidence in the pit lane and Max sounds as if he is lying in his sofa eating popcorn while watching Better Call Saul.

 

EDIT: Videos are not (currently) allowed to be embedded. They are the last laps, with pit radio, for Lewis and Norris in one video and the last 5 for Max in the other.

Edited by Singularity, 01 October 2021 - 21:51.

[Augurk]

What? Unless I am completely off Mercedes doesn't have a second Mercedes team. To even call Red Bull only has AT. That is already more than Mercedes has.

Just one hint. They were pink. 

[Bliman]

Just one hint. They were pink. 

So they are all paid by Mercedes in that team (Like AT is paid by Red Bull)? I haven't heard that before. Is that really true?

[IceSpeed]

Are we really making a big deal about AT letting RB through and holding up Merc? If they didn’t do that everyone should be shocked and question their purpose.

[Augurk]

So they are all paid by Mercedes in that team (Like AT is paid by Red Bull)? I haven't heard that before. Is that really true?

So letting another constructor literally run your last years car is better than a team actually owning a junior team? That junior team has not done anything worse than other teams that had Mercedes engines and Mercedes juniors driving for them have done.

 

In an ideal world no team would (part) own any other team and would have no influence. But that's not the world we live in. Red Bull only has AT. Mercedes with Toto has its fingers in so many pots its ridiculous. Shares in teams, managing drivers of other teams, allowing another team to make an integral copy of your last seasons car, getting all the Merc powered teams to gang up on regulation changes voting, the list goes on and on and on. 

 

Ferrari has AR and Haas but doesn't seem to be so actively using them, or at least as visible as Merc does. 

 

Yet here people complain about Gasly not putting up as much of a fight against Max who was always going to overtake him.

[Bliman]

So letting another constructor literally run your last years car is better than a team actually owning a junior team? That junior team has not done anything worse than other teams that had Mercedes engines and Mercedes juniors driving for them have done.

 

In an ideal world no team would (part) own any other team and would have no influence. But that's not the world we live in. Red Bull only has AT. Mercedes with Toto has its fingers in so many pots its ridiculous. Shares in teams, managing drivers of other teams, allowing another team to make an integral copy of your last seasons car, getting all the Merc powered teams to gang up on regulation changes voting, the list goes on and on and on. 

 

Ferrari has AR and Haas but doesn't seem to be so actively using them, or at least as visible as Merc does. 

 

Yet here people complain about Gasly not putting up as much of a fight against Max who was always going to overtake him.

Yes it makes a big difference. It's like having a team with 4 drivers in it. That is not the case with the team you are suggesting.

Also, you are pointing to the many influences Toto and Mercedes has. But what influence does it have on the track?

I am not really sure what you are arguing here. Are you saying that Williams and Mclaren or the other teams Mercedes has its fingers in are actively helping Mercedes?

I only posted the original clip of Gasly because some were asking and maybe some were suggesting that Williams and Mclaren would help Mercedes in the last race. Therefore I posted the clip.

Now you have people saying that it is obvious that AT is gonna help Red Bull and you have people like you who are suggesting or hinting at that Mercedes is getting help from many on the grid.

The way I see it is that I don't think that Gasly is really going to fight hard against Max unless he is in the top three and I think that Russell will not risk a crash with Hamilton and likes to keep it clean.

What I don't want is a second team like AT actively helping Red Bull. I would consider that unfair. The clip that I posted could be interpreted in a couple of ways and I already said a few posts thereafter that it probably was that Gasly thought (rightly so) that he could keep Bottas behind without losing to much time.

[Singularity]

 

Also, you are pointing to the many influences Toto and Mercedes has. But what influence does it have on the track?

I am not really sure what you are arguing here. Are you saying that Williams and Mclaren or the other teams Mercedes has its fingers in are actively helping Mercedes?

Imola:
 

 

 

Wolff’s response was more blunt in reaction to Russell’s suggestion, pronouncing it as “bullshit”. He noted that as a Mercedes driver the Englishman should have been aware of the bigger picture in taking what he believed was an unnecessary risk.

[Celloman]

Yes it makes a big difference. It's like having a team with 4 drivers in it. That is not the case with the team you are suggesting.

Also, you are pointing to the many influences Toto and Mercedes has. But what influence does it have on the track?

I am not really sure what you are arguing here. Are you saying that Williams and Mclaren or the other teams Mercedes has its fingers in are actively helping Mercedes?

I only posted the original clip of Gasly because some were asking and maybe some were suggesting that Williams and Mclaren would help Mercedes in the last race. Therefore I posted the clip.

Now you have people saying that it is obvious that AT is gonna help Red Bull and you have people like you who are suggesting or hinting at that Mercedes is getting help from many on the grid.

The way I see it is that I don't think that Gasly is really going to fight hard against Max unless he is in the top three and I think that Russell will not risk a crash with Hamilton and likes to keep it clean.

What I don't want is a second team like AT actively helping Red Bull. I would consider that unfair. The clip that I posted could be interpreted in a couple of ways and I already said a few posts thereafter that it probably was that Gasly thought (rightly so) that he could keep Bottas behind without losing to much time.

There has been speculation about Force India / Racing Point / Aston helping Mercedes on track. Not so much this year, but in past years there was at least this story suggesting that Force India received a text message from Mercedes to pit one of their drivers to get them out of the way. There has obviously been similar incidents with Red Bull and Torro Rosso in the past as well. I reckon in 2012 Abu Dhabi Vettel was starting from the back and Ricciardo or Vergne let him pass too easily.

[Beamer]

Kinda cool and sad seeing some already looking for excuses in the ' but red bull has an unfair advantage with a 4 car team' narrative

[P123]

Kinda cool and sad seeing some already looking for excuses in the ' but red bull has an unfair advantage with a 4 car team' narrative

 
I know, right, what about that, eh? Great point!

Wolff has his tentacles in almost every Merc (and some nonMerc) powered teams.

Oh, err, not that one...

[as65p]

Kinda cool and sad seeing some already looking for excuses in the ' but red bull has an unfair advantage with a 4 car team' narrative

Look at the positive side. It's not as bad as "long covid".

[SenorSjon]

Look at the positive side. It's not as bad as "long covid".

Give it time.

[jjcale]

Very interesting to see/hear the contrasts here. McLaren definitely need some confidence in the pit lane and Max sounds as if he is lying in his sofa eating popcorn while watching Better Call Saul.

 

 

 

Was cheering for him at that time but that "SHUT UP" by LN to his engineer has not aged well .... 

[ANF]

I don't think it was an arrogant "Shut up, I know what I'm doing" kind of shut up (which some have suggested) but rather a "Shut up, I can't have you talking at this part of the circuit because if I put two wheels outside the racing line I'm gonna lose the lead" kind of shut up.

[FullOppositeLock]

I don't think it was an arrogant "Shut up, I know what I'm doing" kind of shut up (which some have suggested) but rather a "Shut up, I can't have you talking at this part of the circuit because if I put two wheels outside the racing line I'm gonna lose the lead" kind of shut up.

I read it the same. It was not borne out of arrogance, but rather fear of dropping the car and an annoyance about the situation. He was on course to his first win. A tough call about whether to switch to inters while navigating a challenging track with Lewis breathing down his neck was the last thing he wanted. The team should have guided him through it like Mercedes did Hamilton, rather than put the decision at his feet when he was already dealing with so much.

[Augurk]

Look at the positive side. It's not as bad as "long covid".

I wouldn't downplay that so easily. Long covid is real and I've seen very fit people taken out of the running for months or even a year after Covid. 

Whether or not Hamilton (or his fans) overstates it as an excuse is not something I want to judge about. I won't judge anyone on health issues only they know. 

 

All I can see is that luckily, if he is suffering from long term effects, at least he's still fit enough to drive a full GP weekend. 

[Beamer]

I wouldn't downplay that so easily. Long covid is real and I've seen very fit people taken out of the running for months or even a year after Covid.
Whether or not Hamilton (or his fans) overstates it as an excuse is not something I want to judge about. I won't judge anyone on health issues only they know.

All I can see is that luckily, if he is suffering from long term effects, at least he's still fit enough to drive a full GP weekend.

Yes you are right. It's real and can be very hard. Of he's suffering (a bit) from long covid I have great respect for his driving and hope he gets over it soon.

[jjcale]

I don't think it was an arrogant "Shut up, I know what I'm doing" kind of shut up (which some have suggested) but rather a "Shut up, I can't have you talking at this part of the circuit because if I put two wheels outside the racing line I'm gonna lose the lead" kind of shut up.

 

Doesnt matter ... A driver should never speak to his engineer like that. I believe you should behave properly when under pressure - not just when things are easy.

 

A bit like YT at the start of the season ... yes his English is poor but you dont speak to your engineers in that tone.... and the team took note and dealt with the issue. 

 

And this is not some kind of attack .. I am big fan of LN's and hope he looks into himself.   

[ARTGP]

Was cheering for him at that time but that "SHUT UP" by LN to his engineer has not aged well .... 

 

That was definitely a rookie moment for him. I think he'll learn greatly from the experience though. I doubt he'd have been so snippy if he had 10 wins already.

Edited by ARTGP, 02 October 2021 - 14:19.

[jjcale]

I wouldn't downplay that so easily. Long covid is real and I've seen very fit people taken out of the running for months or even a year after Covid. 

Whether or not Hamilton (or his fans) overstates it as an excuse is not something I want to judge about. I won't judge anyone on health issues only they know. 

 

All I can see is that luckily, if he is suffering from long term effects, at least he's still fit enough to drive a full GP weekend. 

 

LH sounds awful towards the end of races. Close to being out of breath.

 

I dont know what the issue is - but there is an issue. The guy practically lives with his physio - so it cant be lack of training.

 

I have a young guy that I am mentoring ATM, who is suffering with Covid after effects (or long Covid or whatever). Spends a lot of time with me.... I have never had to take it so easy on someone before ... no stamina at all. Cant keep up with me - and I am half dead at this point (compared to when I was younger) .... But looking at him he looks like he lives in the gym.

 

Eventually the scientists will explain it to us.  

Edited by jjcale, 02 October 2021 - 14:22.

[ARTGP]

LH sounds awful towards the end of races. Close to being out of breath.

 

He's been like this before Covid though. He also seems to lose a ton of water weight during the GPs.  I think it's just his characteristic.  Hungary was not normal though. He was definitely ill there. Could be dehydration.

Edited by ARTGP, 02 October 2021 - 14:25.

[Singularity]

I don't think it was an arrogant "Shut up, I know what I'm doing" kind of shut up (which some have suggested) but rather a "Shut up, I can't have you talking at this part of the circuit because if I put two wheels outside the racing line I'm gonna lose the lead" kind of shut up.

That is why I said McLaren need to be more confident at pit wall. They communicated with Norris as if he should advice them while they themselves had all the data about weather, other cars tires and so on. Norris should have been told, not asked. Notice that HAM said "It've stopped raining man" just before he pitted, I think it is very likely that he had done a Norris if it had been his call.

[ANF]

Doesnt matter ... A driver should never speak to his engineer like that. I believe you should behave properly when under pressure - not just when things are easy.
 
A bit like YT at the start of the season ... yes his English is poor but you dont speak to your engineers in that tone.... and the team took note and dealt with the issue. 
 
And this is not some kind of attack .. I am big fan of LN's and hope he looks into himself.

Well, you do have a point. Norris and his race engineer seem to have a good relationship, so I hope they have talked it over and can carry on as normal.

[noikeee]

Come on Lando was filled up with adrenaline and under extreme pressure at maximum brain capacity trying to keep the car alive in the rain. Being polite isn't top of priorities at that stage, clear communication is.

Don't forget the radio is a bit of a private communication we're intruding in. They know it's being broadcasted but it's not a press conference or something. It's competitors speaking up under massive strain during the heat of competition. I'd be telling people to **** off right left and center.

[jjcale]

Come on Lando was filled up with adrenaline and under extreme pressure at maximum brain capacity trying to keep the car alive in the rain. Being polite isn't top of priorities at that stage, clear communication is.

Don't forget the radio is a bit of a private communication we're intruding in. They know it's being broadcasted but it's not a press conference or something. It's competitors speaking up under massive strain during the heat of competition. I'd be telling people to **** off right left and center.

 

I understand the point youre making but I already took it into account.... Its not that I am, as a viewer, offended by LN's language (I actually found it entertaining hearing it live) .... I am saying that as an F1 driver you dont behave like that ..... Ron Dennis would weep to listen to this... he used to say that he was looking for "a mentality" and not just "a talent" when looking for driver.... If you cant keep it together under pressure, you shouldnt be in the car. 

 

LN is a fine driver and clearly should be in the car ... but I dont see how its controversial for me to point out that this was not his finest moment ... or that I hope he reflects on it and learns from it. 

[Ivanhoe]

Yes it makes a big difference. It's like having a team with 4 drivers in it.

4 drivers in one team, overreacting much, no? You conveniently ignore the difference in car performance between AT and Red Bull (and Mercedes for that matter). The AT is hardly in a position to facilitate the #33 Red Bull or to hold up the #44 Mercedes. And Socchi definitely wasn’t an example of that. Max passed a Ferrari and an Aston Martin in his first stint, and you think Gasly could make his life difficult? Lewis even had an easier pass on Gasly than Max, admittedly with an tyre advantage, but nevertheless, Gasly didn’t even try to fight him. Gasly just knows how to chose his battles, he has no chance against Lewis and Max, against Bottas however…

[Bliman]

4 drivers in one team, overreacting much, no? You conveniently ignore the difference in car performance between AT and Red Bull (and Mercedes for that matter). The AT is hardly in a position to facilitate the #33 Red Bull or to hold up the #44 Mercedes. And Socchi definitely wasn’t an example of that. Max passed a Ferrari and an Aston Martin in his first stint, and you think Gasly could make his life difficult? Lewis even had an easier pass on Gasly than Max, admittedly with an tyre advantage, but nevertheless, Gasly didn’t even try to fight him. Gasly just knows how to chose his battles, he has no chance against Lewis and Max, against Bottas however…

Are some of you ignoring some messages from me or something? I already said many times now it was because it was Bottas a long time ago. And overreacting much? But did you read to what message I reacted? He was saying that Toto has his fingers in many pies etc... and that was worse etc...

Which I reacted with my post. You always have to look at my post in context with another post I react to. But it is so weird these reactions I am getting because you are basically saying what I have said many times now.

[as65p]

I wouldn't downplay that so easily. Long covid is real and I've seen very fit people taken out of the running for months or even a year after Covid

Exactly my point. I've seen that too. Yet Hamilton isn't "taken out of the running" by any means.

 

If he really had it, it would of course be terrible and a great shame. But all cases I've seen myself so far, or being reported, had far more distinct effects than to lose like 0.1 percent of performance or let the person do like 0.2 percent more mistakes.

 

IOW, I don't believe Hamilton would be able to still compete in F1 if he really suffered form long covid.

[Bliman]

Exactly my point. I've seen that too. Yet Hamilton isn't "taken out of the running" by any means.

 

If he really had it, it would of course be terrible and a great shame. But all cases I've seen myself so far, or being reported, had far more distinct effects than to lose like 0.1 percent of performance or let the person do like 0.2 percent more mistakes.

 

IOW, I don't believe Hamilton would be able to still compete in F1 if he really suffered form long covid.

There are different sorts of long covid. Also how do you come up with that 0.1% and 0.2%? It was clear he was suffering quite a bit a few races ago.